When hunting in Africa, my preference is to have my scope set on about 3X unless hunting really thick stuff or following up DG(when I turn it down as low as it will go). The only time I use higher magnification is when I have time and the shot is really long like the wildebeest I took at over 350 yards. When we were stalking the impala below, my PH reached over and turned the magnification on my scope all the way up. As soon as he looked away, I turned it back down as I certainly didn't need any extra magnification shooting off of shooting sticks at 100yds. I noticed on a recent TV hunt that the PH did the same thing to his client's rifle (I think it was on a finishing shot on a buffalo). My point is that I know what magnification works for me and I don't want anybody messing with my equipment. I would like to know if other hunters have experienced the same thing and if any of the PH's that post here can tell if they commonly do this and why.

Haven't had it done to me, but I saw it on a hunting show this week. Probably the same one you saw (rhino). It would not make me happy.

While I appreciate urgency of the situation you are referring to I would be greatly upset and let's say annoyed if someone did that to me. It would distract me in a way I would not easily recover from quickly and would just in plain language 'piss me off'. If he has the time to do this to my scope which is in my hands and supposedly at my shoulder he certainly can't be paying much attention to what the hell is going on unless he is clairvoyent. I cannot ever remember having to change the power adjustment on one of my scopes in Africa unless the terrain changes.

Touching another man's gun is like....
Well you get the idea. If some-one makes the wrong magnification choice, just tell them, and if they do not agree, there is nothing you really could do about it

Interesting topic- I saw the same show. I have also recently watched some Tracks Across Africa shows, one in particular, where the PH grabs the client by the shirt and tugs on him to pull him along and get him into position. Another was a buff hunt, where the client was older and a big man, the trackers were carrying his rifle, and after the first shot, the PH kept saying "Come on Jim" about 10 times, while the client was huffing and puffing to catch up to the PH for a follow up shot.

I suppose this could be a nervous PH or one lacking a bit of people skills, or from the PHs point of view, just trying to make a DG work and not lose an animal or get someone injured.

Yes, I too was really bothered by the PH changing the magnification of the scope. Was it a control freak move or a babysitting move?

On the one hand, there is no excuse for a client lagging back or not being in position for a shot, esp on DG, but I would not want a PH dragging me by the shirt on a hunt either...

I don't know the specifics but an opinion from the other side of the coin.

It is easier to just tug on someone's shirt to get them in position or, perhaps, change the scope, than to speak about it.

Voices are the single most disprupting sound when hunting.

Oh, I don't know: My last elephant hunt I was trailing the ph by a couple of steps when he looked around some bush's, pulled back and grabbed me by the arm to help me get into position faster. That did not particulary trouble me since I remember from my infantry days when I would have to occasionally pull a trooper into position; no disrespect just a way to hurry up the response

I agree w/Brian on the shirt grab, no talking required either.
Touching the rifle, NO WAY. I change/changed my power setting to go w/the terrain, here in the states and Africa too. I think the PH told one of our group to turn down the power...in a friendly reminder, just doing his job tone, maybe once...had to think about to even remember it happened.

Robert

I don't object to a PH guiding me into position, rather than talking and perhaps spooking the game. I would find it extremely offensive should a PH be inclined to adjust my scope, and it would only happen once.

Whether it's a PG rifle with a 3-9x variable or a DG rifle sporting a 1.5-5x, I hunt with optics on their lowest setting and will adjust the power ring when needed for long shots. I have always understood this to be the appropriate way to hunt with a variable scope, so that should an animal appear up close the scope will provide the largest field of view. This allows the best chance of "finding" the animal in the scope quickly.

Not all scopes adjust power in the same manner, i.e. clockwise to go up in power and I think Swarovski's are opposite than Leupold. Imagine you had your scope on 9 for a long shot, and the guy in his infinite wisdom reaches over, thinks he turning it to 9 power but actually turns it to three. That would be one uncomfortable situation. The answer, fixed power baby...

My scopes are all either fixed 2 or 2.5X or 8X. If you twist my lens against the lock ring I'll hit you in the face and it will not change the magnification of anything but the size of your nose.

Problem solved.

my ph in tanzania this summer grabbed my rifle and moved it from the forearm to the barrel when i was setting up for a shot. that bothered me.

quote:

my ph in tanzania this summer grabbed my rifle and moved it from the forearm to the barrel when i was setting up for a shot. that bothered me.

Everyone says to practice shooting off sticks at home before you go to Africa so you do and you find what works best for you, then some yutz does something like this? At a moment such as this? I hope you talked things over with him, shit like that would sour me to a point beyond savign if it continued

You may pull on me, push on me or get my attention in any manner you like - but if you touch my rifle as I am getting ready to shoot I am likely to headbutt you in the face.

When I'M hunting I don't want anybody touching my rifle, HOWEVER, I've been on the other side of the coin many times in the last 25 years. The reason the ph or guide did that was usually for a good reason. Many times I've had a client with scope set at 10 power and come up on a animal or wounded animal at 20 yeards, want to guess what he can see in the scope on 10 power? Usually I watch the client and see what the scope is set on and advise him BEFORE we get up on the animal to turn the scope down all the way. Biggest problem is a scope set on too high a power for the client to pick up the game.
Second biggest problem is a client lagging behind(no matter how slow we might be moving). I want a client close enough to me to reach back and tap him on the arm if need be or be able to whisper to him in a low voice. Some guys will lag back 10 or 15 yards no matter how slow the walk. Lots of times the animal has gotten away before I can get the client up for a shot.
In summary 1. keep the scope on low power and 2. stay close to the guide. Don't take any of these comments personal, just trying to help the guy get his animal.

Having someone fiddle with my scope as I was getting ready to shoot would be so distracting I would probably miss the shot. I would probably tell the PH to never do that again. Whether his setting was superior to mine is irrelevent.

On the othe hand, if he would like to make a SUGGESTION regarding power settings, I would be more than happy to listen. Everybody's vision is different and people see thngs differently. The PH is justified in testing out a client's competence with a firearm, an if the client is deemed competent, advice should be kept to a minimum.

This is one more argument for fixed power scopes.

No one may touch my rifle or my wife unless they want trouble.

I will have to remember this and be sure to let my PH know not to touch my equipment when I go on my hunt this spring. Although someone in the excitement of the hunt may have forgot to change the power on their scope. The PH/Guide should politely remind them. Otherwise one may remember that when it comes time to tip.

Rule #1 - Don't touch my equipment.

Rule #2 - Don't forget rule #1.

Without permission of course.

quote:

Originally posted by 404WJJeffery:
Interesting topic- I saw the same show. I have also recently watched some Tracks Across Africa shows, one in particular, where the PH grabs the client by the shirt and tugs on him to pull him along and get him into position. Another was a buff hunt, where the client was older and a big man, the trackers were carrying his rifle, and after the first shot, the PH kept saying "Come on Jim" about 10 times, while the client was huffing and puffing to catch up to the PH for a follow up shot.

I suppose this could be a nervous PH or one lacking a bit of people skills, or from the PHs point of view, just trying to make a DG work and not lose an animal or get someone injured.

Yes, I too was really bothered by the PH changing the magnification of the scope. Was it a control freak move or a babysitting move?

On the one hand, there is no excuse for a client lagging back or not being in position for a shot, esp on DG, but I would not want a PH dragging me by the shirt on a hunt either...

I saw the episode as well and I think the "babysitting move" had to be what was going on - that would be consistent with the "come on Jim" segments as well. I think it likely that the PH wouldn't have touched the scope of a client that had demonstrated more experience and intensity.

I too would be pissed at such a move.

Like most seasoned hunters who use veriable scopes on their rifles, My habit has always been to carry my scopes set on the lowest power setting. I rarely turn the power up, except when a relaxed long shot on a standing animal is the target, and I don't need anyone, including a PH, to turn it for me! I do not like anyone touching my rifle without asking first. Besides that it is just as easy to hit an animal properly with the low setting as it is with a high setting, though not the reverse, in all cases!

On the pulling the shirt, oe touching me to get my attention, for a target, doesn't bother me at all, It would bother me a lot more if the PH talked and cause a run-away of my animal. However I don't want anyone telling me how fast I am to walk, or run! I know my limitations, and worse PH in the world is one who thinks he must show the client how fast he can walk. The only time I've ever had a PH say anything about how fast to move was in the form of a question, as it should be! We were stalking a heard of cape Buff, and though I don't think they saw us or winded us, they knew something was up, and took off at a fairly slow trot, toward the South Luangwa park border. The PH said Mac, are you up to a jog?, to which I replied, "I will go at my pace, but I will not have a heart attack for any buffalo that ever lived. I was 60 yrs old at the time, and the PH was 26 yrs old. He was polite, and I answered him truthfully. I kept up, and took a very good buffalo, but if it had gotten too be much for me, we would simply have had to look for another herd the next day!

I don't think you will find many PHs who would dare touch my rifle a second time without asking first!

On the other hand...

Thinking about it a bit more,

if a guy is huffin and puffin a bit, or not keeping up, or it only seems that way on a TV show, so what? He is having fun, the show was good, it was enjoyable to watch and did its job in keeping me jazzed about hunting Africa, so who am I to judge?

And I wasn't there, so maybe the client didn't mind getting pulled by his shirt.

In my own case, I would not want to be tugged at, either by an unprofessional PH, even if I were lagging behind, so be it, don't touch.

Sympathy and kudos to good PHs who manage this type of situation professionally and with patience.

I don't want ANYONE touching my rifle.
I carry it all teh time, sometimes a trackers offers to carry it for me, I have always refused that offer.

As Mac said, I carry my rifle with the scope set at 2.5 - that is the minimum on mine.

And depending on what is being shot and at what being shot, what distance, and what rest I have, I adjust it accordingly.

This year we shot an eland at about 400 yards and a waterbuck at about 450. On both occasions I turned the scope up to 8.

If any of you have looked at the video clib in my hunt report, you would have noticed the distinct time period between the shot and the bullet connect.

Even Walter refuses to let ME carry his rifle as he goes hunting! Even though he walks at about 500 yards an hour!

Hats off to him!

quote:

Originally posted by sevenmagltd.:
When I'M hunting I don't want anybody touching my rifle, HOWEVER, I've been on the other side of the coin many times in the last 25 years. The reason the ph or guide did that was usually for a good reason. Many times I've had a client with scope set at 10 power and come up on a animal or wounded animal at 20 yeards, want to guess what he can see in the scope on 10 power? Usually I watch the client and see what the scope is set on and advise him BEFORE we get up on the animal to turn the scope down all the way. Biggest problem is a scope set on too high a power for the client to pick up the game.
Second biggest problem is a client lagging behind(no matter how slow we might be moving). I want a client close enough to me to reach back and tap him on the arm if need be or be able to whisper to him in a low voice. Some guys will lag back 10 or 15 yards no matter how slow the walk. Lots of times the animal has gotten away before I can get the client up for a shot.
In summary 1. keep the scope on low power and 2. stay close to the guide. Don't take any of these comments personal, just trying to help the guy get his animal.

VERY WELL stated SevenMag,
I've learned the exact same thing in the last few thousand people I've guided. MOST people I wouldn't think of touching their gun (unless asked) but some folks are really overwhelmed by the whole situation and their scope is constantly on 10x+ from using it as a "binocular" or from sighting in.

I don't know if I've seen this specific show, but in the PH's defense... let's face it, not EVERYONE takes learning their hobby or equipment as seriously as they should.

quote:

nteresting topic- I saw the same show. I have also recently watched some Tracks Across Africa shows, one in particular, where the PH grabs the client by the shirt and tugs on him to pull him along and get him into position. Another was a buff hunt, where the client was older and a big man, the trackers were carrying his rifle, and after the first shot, the PH kept saying "Come on Jim" about 10 times, while the client was huffing and puffing to catch up to the PH for a follow up shot.

I suppose this could be a nervous PH or one lacking a bit of people skills, or from the PHs point of view, just trying to make a DG work and not lose an animal or get someone injured.

Yes, I too was really bothered by the PH changing the magnification of the scope. Was it a control freak move or a babysitting move?

On the one hand, there is no excuse for a client lagging back or not being in position for a shot, esp on DG, but I would not want a PH dragging me by the shirt on a hunt either...

404 jeffrey,
i was the guide on both of the above that you mentioned ... i dont think i lack people skills and neither am i particularly nervous around dangerous game .

when i am very close to elephant i ALWAYS will grab a hunter by the shirt to lead him in ...far far better than trying to talk him through it at that close range a human voice will destroy the whole scenario ..

as far as the scope thing , what the TV show did not show was the clip before that where he couldn't see and didn t know why, he was getting frustrated and he was caught up in the moment and very excited ...he is an older man and actually likes to be nursed through a situation .. i have done that before and will do it again , but not unless its fully required ...

the come on jim is by no means a reprimand but an encouragement , at close range with any game if the guy shot and i stood back , leaning on my rifle and waited for the guy to do everything in his own time ,things could and would turn out different .

i communicate a LOT with my clients , right through the process, from the first time we decide to follow a track , right up to the kill shot ... and through the first couple of days very soon figure out what they want and what they dont want ...i am slow on the trigger and like them to make all the shots , if that means making them husstle from time to time , in my book thats fine ...those of you who dont want me to ever rush you after the first shot better have a good course of action in your mind as i am very happy to sit back and watch ! understand that i NEVER rush a guy ion the first shot , but once thats fired if the elephant of buff doesnt go down ...its GO time.

on a TV show we have only very feew minutes to try and give an idea of exactly whats happening and capture the most exciting sections of the hunt , sometimes there is not the ability to explain and show the "whys" of each scenario.

babysitting a client is our job , its also our job to ascertain to what degree we babysit each guy , some far more than others ...

either way we appreciate you watching the show .

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
I would like to know if other hunters have experienced the same thing and if any of the PH's that post here can tell if they commonly do this and why.

I would personally prefer not to interfere with my clients' equipment - especially not as they're about to take the shot... but I can relate to a certain degree to PH's who do... My advice to my clients before commencing with the hunt in the bushveld is to keep their adjustable scopes on a 3X or 4X magnification. This is for good reason - as most of the shots taken in these hunting conditions are between 60 and 120 yards and there is no need for a higher magnification.

But I have been in situations where 1.)clients fiddled around with their scope adjustments at crucial moments during the hunt and 2.) where clients either couldn't see the animals I was pointing out to them to shoot at, or could see them but were taking aim through dense brush = readying themselves for risky shots and I opted to move them into a better position... This implies that I sometimes had to touch them (not necessarily tug or drag at them but gently move them) into a better position. I never had any clients that complained...

As example of the first scenario: a client of mine hunted Giraffe and his attempt at a brainshot from 40 yards failed leaving the bull staggering around - threateningly close to the edge of a cliff... The client's follow-up shots from a similar distance missed completely - and when we finally got the old bull down and I asked him what had happened he told me that on the first shot he couldn't steady the rifle for a clear shot and on the follow-up shots he couldn't find the animal in his scope at all. Why? because as it turned out he had turned the magnification up to 10X...

I 0nce turned a clients scope down as far as it would go before I handed it back to him. We were walking back to the truck at dusk in some fairly thick and hilly terrain. The result was a 36" Mt. Nyala. I don't think the 40 yard shot would have been likely with 10 power. He might have turned it down himself but I dodn't want to take the chance. I DID point it out to him though and told him why.
Rich Elliott

Seems to me that if a hunter has gotten that far with his scope still set inappropriately he clearly needs a higher level of babysitting, and a failure on the part of the PH to provide it would mainly demonstrate that the PH wasn't paying attention.

There's also a silly phobia on display here about nobody touches my rifle like the PH was fondling your dick for no reason.

A large part of what you are paying a PH for, seems to me, is his judgement. Would be a shame to pay for it and not get full use of it.

Should anybody reading this ever in future find yourself acting as my PH, which I fervently hope will happen, please note: If you see me about to do something stupid please feel free to intervene, as long as it doesn't involve literally grabbing my dick. Unless you see me about to do something stupid with my dick...

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
....

Should anybody reading this ever in future find yourself acting as my PH, which I fervently hope will happen, please note: If you see me about to do something stupid please feel free to intervene, as long as it doesn't involve literally grabbing my dick. Unless you see me about to do something stupid with my dick...

Just stay away from the Black Mambas and you will be okay.

quote:

Should anybody reading this ever in future find yourself acting as my PH, which I fervently hope will happen, please note: If you see me about to do something stupid please feel free to intervene, as long as it doesn't involve literally grabbing my dick. Unless you see me about to do something stupid with my dick...

Ivan:

I'm glad to see the PHs chiming in with their perspective. The are always two sides to every story. Still, if someone else meddled with my equipment, just as I was readying to shoot, I think I would stop the hunt until I had checked my rifle over to ensure that I understood what condition it was in.

On the other hand, being grabbed or encouraged by the PH to facilitate a successful conclusion to the hunt, especially if shots had already been fired, wouldn't bother me much.

Bear in mind that different cultures have different needs for personal space and varying aversion to touching. One hunter may welcome the assistance while the next might react instictively with a blow to the face. Presumably the PH knows his hunter well enough by this point that he knows what liberties he can take with the body and equipment of his client.

Ivan

HAH! I am not much of an armchair quarterback, am !?

Thank you for your response, it shows that a TV show can't really capture the overall dynamics of the hunt, and that it is a dangerous thing to comment from afar.

I was wrong and I thank you for your clarification. Your professionalism and people skills are well known, so although I would like to say your correction of my comments was required to the failings of the TV editor, it is more accurate to say I was wrong.

Ivan, your success and professionalism are well known, and should I ever be lucky enough to hunt with you, I am sure I will be as happy and succesful as your client, Jim.

OK, well, two days of Thanksgiving turkey, and now some crow, I need to lie down and digest all these bird I have been eating.

One thing I think we should all remember is the adrenalin factor. Regardless of professionalism, adrenalin flows through all our viens just the same. And it effects how we react to every situation.

Ivan is just one example of some if these same things I've seen on other show. Ivan's nature is that he's an energetic guy and excited to be in the bush. It shows on TV and as well when you meet him in person. The fact that he gets excited and quickly encourages or even urges his clients to get the next shot off or even that he may tug the sleeve is part of Ivan's personality to some extent.

That's a part of what makes a hunt fun. Did you enjoy being with your PH or guide? If your personalities match or mesh well or compliment each other, you're sure to have a great hunt. If not, good luck, it may not be quite so enjoyable.

As for touching my rifle, I prefer to handle that myself. Suggestions are appreciated, but use of common sense by the hunter should have already have taken care of it. But, there is the adrenalin factor once again. As hunters and not professionals, sometimes we need a reminder, someone to run down the checklist for us, while our minds try to wrap what just happened.

Just my 2 cents. Location of the hunt is irrelevant.

David

I have 2 .375 H&H rifles for PG. One has express sights for close in shots. The other has an 8X.
I can tell which one I want most times by the terrain I'm hunting and if I'm carrying the wrong one when a shot presents itself, that's why it's called "hunting" not "getting".

.458 Lott for DG wears a 2.5X at all times. I can't think of anything I'd shoot it at where more magnification would be appropriate.

Simple and effective. Nothing to fiddle with.

On my first elephant hunt, I was shooting a Searcy .470 N.E. We had followed a bull along the shore of Lake Kariba and found him facing away and showering in a mud pool a few hundred feet from the shore. There wasn't a bit of cover in the 45 yards from us to him.

The P.H., asked me if I want to shoot from the last cover and when I said "no", he smiled, reached down to my belt and popped open my ammo carrier making extra rounds available for a quick reload.

I took his action as an indication that he approved of my decision to get closer and that he was going to give me every opportunity to shoot, reload... or whatever, unless we got in deep doo-doo. He then made a bow and with a sweeping motion directed me forward, he following slightly to the side and half-a-step behind.

The elephant was butt-end to us and shooting streams of mucky stuff across his back so he didn't see, or hear our approach... but when his bulk blotted out the sun and I was getting wet from the mud bath, I looked over at the P.H., and with eyes as big as saucers, indicated that being in the elephants shadow was close enough.

In this instance, the P.H. didn't touch my rifle, but I thought it just fine that, when he popped open my ammo pouch, he was letting me know that the elephant was "mine" until I screwed it up... which, at least on this day, I didn't do.

BTW, I like to hunt elephants. It ain't like anything else.

quote:

van

HAH! I am not much of an armchair quarterback, am !?

Thank you for your response, it shows that a TV show can't really capture the overall dynamics of the hunt, and that it is a dangerous thing to comment from afar.

I was wrong and I thank you for your clarification. Your professionalism and people skills are well known, so although I would like to say your correction of my comments was required to the failings of the TV editor, it is more accurate to say I was wrong.

Ivan, your success and professionalism are well known, and should I ever be lucky enough to hunt with you, I am sure I will be as happy and succesful as your client, Jim.

OK, well, two days of Thanksgiving turkey, and now some crow, I need to lie down and digest all these bird I have been eating.

Like Steve McQueen
All I need's a fast machine...

404 , no worries at all my friend ...rest assured that it frustrates me to no end to only have the few minutes in each show to try and capture what in some cases has taken weeks to achieve...our editing team is great , they have the same trouble ...too much content , too little time !!!

i look forward to perhaps hunting with you someday ... i promise i wont touch your rifle

quote:

BTW, I like to hunt elephants. It ain't like anything else.

judge +1

What we see on film can be so far removed from what actually happens.

It can give one the exact opposite idea of what actually happened.

Just ask Walter!

He is so happy I am doing the editing, and show him in all his glory! I cut out all the misses, and I cut out the part when I get "nominated" by him to go after his wounded animal and kill it a few ks afterwards!

Another part that does not get shown on film is how the whole dynemics of the hunt are evolving. As sometimes one can hear something being said, or something being done, and get that taken in a totally wrong light, just because what has happened before is not shown.

In our videos, I try as much as I can of leaving the true meaning of the hunt in the film. The results can be quite hilarious sometimes!

Sometimes even if we tried to get the whole story on film, it is not possible.

If you look at Buffalo_5

You will not see what comedy was involved in the hunt.

We ran after a bull after we saw him from the truck. All three of us, Alan, me and Roy. We saw the bull standing looking back at us. We hit the brakes, Alan put the shooting sticks up, and I got onto them and fired. Roy had the camera, he hit the brakes just behind me, and was trying to get the buffalo into focus before I shot. In his efforts to do that, he got very close to me. And as he was zoomed onto something dark that he thought was the buffalo, he did not know how close to me he was.

As I fired, my head hit the camera behind me, knocking my hat over my forehead!

Roy managed to get the rest of the video after that.

I asked him "why did you hit me on the head?"
Roy "I didn't hit you on the head. You ran into my camera!"

Me "Why did you get so close to me anyway?"
Roy "I did not mean too. But you two were running like mad, and suddenly stopped. I know you would do one of your usual tricks and fire too fast. I was trying to get the buffalo into focus when you fired and the recoil made your head hit my camera"

Me "So now it is now my fault you whacked me on the head with your camera?"

Roy "Of course it is was. It is always your fault. If you wait until I get ready this would not have happened"

At any given moment, one of us three is screwing things up. As long as it is not me doing this, we do manage to shoot some animals.

But we do have a lot of fun!

I didn't mean to start a PH bashing thread. This illustrates how hard the PH's job is in sizing up a client and going hunting with someone you have probably only spoken to for 15 minutes a year or two ago at a convention. If I am going to do something stupid my PH is welcome to set me right and no complaints and BTW on the whole safari this was the only thing that happened that gave me pause. I can certainly understand a PH checking the magnification on a client's scope to make sure it is appropriate for the circumstances especially since many hunters are power crazy with riflescopes. My question related to the PH turning the magnification up on a shot that I could have done with iron sights. The solution is best illustrated by Saeed. Find a good PH and hunt with him often!

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
The solution is best illustrated by Saeed. Find a good PH and hunt with him often!

Find a good PH with good trackers and I'm not against going out with just the tracker(s) and have been allowed to do so many times. Call the PH when you need him to come with the truck so you don't have to carry the game back to camp.

PH and farm owner in RSA has let me go out stalking on my own with no assistance or sometimes even a radio many times and neither of us had any qualms about it. No different than me going out on my own on my property here in Texas, just his property is bigger.

All PG and primates except for an occasional leopard or buff so it's not like there's much risk if you don't walk into a crocodile's path crossing a river or get bit by a snake.