How good is the 338 Win for African game, does it outperform the 300 Winchester in a great way. Have anyone used the Hornady Heavy Magnum 225 grain ammo. and realoded with hornady bullets 250 grain and 225, how do they keep together

With no DG on the bill there is not a better all around cartrige. I have used this on Eland, Barnes X in 225 down to Grysbok with 225 Barnes Solids. It shoots flat enough for any long range shots, that is within reason say 400 yds. The same load will handle every thing. That is not to say as some do, you need this load or this bullet weight for this or that game. If you just want one rifle and one round only the .338 has no equal, just one mans opinion. This is what I am taking this fall for Kudu, Gemsbok, Zebra and Dik-Dik in Namibia.

[ 06-14-2002, 21:39: Message edited by: The Old Hunter ]

Flip.

Last June, I was in Namibia and took Eland, Blesbok, Hartebeeste, Zebra, Waterbuck, Gemsbok, and Springbok with my .338 Win. loaded with 250 Gr. Nosler Partition. Performance of rifle (Mod.70) and this round was exceptional. I ended my hunting season shooting a big bull moose here in Alaska with the same combination. I go along 100% with what "The Old Hunter" has to say about the .338. When I go back to Africa in 2003, this rifle and round will definitely be in my gun case!

Flip, the 338WM is a great round for African plainsgame and has many loyal advocates. Remember though that the 300 mags shooting 200gr bullets @ about 2875fps pass the 338 in energy @ about 200 yds and shoot significantly flatter. Remember also that with 250 gr bullets in both, the 375 will equal the trajectory of the 338. The 375 usually comes in rifles weighing about a pound more than the 338 and because of this, in my experience there is little if any discernable recoil difference between the two. The 375 advantage is that it can be used on dangerous game and has available heavier (up to 350gr) bullets in a broad assortment of solids as well. The 375 may, as some say, be "neither fish nor fowl" but over the past 90 years, for African hunting, it has a track record that likely will never be bettered. As good as it is, IMHO, it is the 338 that could more appropriately called "neither fish nor fowl". For North American game, it is a different story alltogether although a friend of mine who is an elk guide in Montana swithed three years ago from the 338 to the 375 and says he sees a significant advantage of the 375 on elk in actual performance.

Flip
I have taken 17 head of African plains game with my 338wm using 250 gr.Nosler Prt, from Ipalla to Eland from 70 yards to well past 300yards. All fell to one well placed shot except for my Blue Wildebeest wich was just plain stubborn. The 338wm wins hands down over the 300wm and any of the other 30's as far as I'm concerned. I will take it over the 375 for longer shots on plains game anytime and so will anyone else who knows there stuff.

Paul K

The 338 is a good round and one I've got some experience with. Is it a better plains game rifle than say a 300mag? Based upon my own experience with both cartridges I'd say no it isn't. It doesn't shoot as flat, doesn't penetrate better and kicks harder. Your mileage may vary.

I'm with JoeR

I have both the 300win mag and 375H&H and i feel that covers the whole world.

Hamdeni

Flip, I have used my 338 on two previous plains game safaris and am getting ready to leave on the 26th for my third pg safari. I have taken impala to eland with this cartridge and most in between. I won't say anything disparaging about the 300 magnums they are great cartridges but they are not a 338 and the 338 is not a 375 as much as the aficionados of both want to claim. I have had the privelege of seeing both a 300 mag and a 300 h&h working on my past safaris and my 338 out penetrated both with a frames and partitions. The 300s were shooting partitions and x bullets. I am far less impressed these days with velocity and a lot more impressed with caliber/weight/ bullet construction. Having said all that it is my observation that a 30-06 with 180gr premium bullets will do the job on all plains game and yes that includes eland (they die easily). The ranges are not typically long unless you are in the desert type environment (gemsbok etc.). So, if you have a favorite .30 mag or 30-06 take it. If you like a 338 take it. If a 375 floats your boat so be it. But when you look Mr. Buff in the eye a .416+ feels mighty good.

Most of the African plainsgame I've taken has fallen to the .300 Winchester. It has always performed superbly for me in Africa, and my opinion of the .300 magnums is about the same as John's. I haven't used the .338 Winchester on safari yet, but I probably will next season. I have used the .338 on quite a few animals stateside over the last twenty years, however, but I've never seen any significant difference in the way it performs versus the .300s on stuff such as elk.

AD

There is little difference in any of our cartridges, and those differences that exist are mostly in the mind of the shooter or they are so slight that one would be hard pressed to determine the difference by the observed effect on game....I should add within reason thereby not comparing a 222 to a 300 Wby....

If I had to pick one cartridge to hunt all of Africa it would be the 338 Win. I think it tends to kill eland and big stuff a little better, but this too may be in my mind...I believe the 300's with a 200 gr. Woodleigh or Nosler are hard to beat and I would hunt about anything with them, my choice being the 300 H&H for no particular reason...

As a matter of fact, I would feel pretty secure with a 30-06 and 200 or 220 gr. Noslers for all Africa has to offer in plainsgame and if I HAD to use it on Lion, Buff and Elephant, I'd do that too.

Given my druthers I'd choose the 338 Win. and a good double rifle for the mean stuff as the perfect combo. I like the idea of 300 gr. Woodleighs for Buff, Lion and even Eland.

Three years ago in Namibia, my hunting companion used a 338 with Nosler Partitions (can't recall what grain), with terrific result. He took Springbuck, Impala, Kudu, Gemsbuck, Red Hartebeast, Black Wildebeest, and Eland. All 1 shot, 1 kill.

I personally believe the 338 mag is the best of both worlds on plains game in Africa. I used trophy bonded bullets in the 225 grain weight. I experienced end to end exit shots on Impala at 50 to 75 yards, leaving a exit hole the size of a US quarter with the 225 grn trophy bonded bear claws bullets. The 338 mag actually flip a big zebra stallion on his back with a frontal chest shot at 140 yard. Zebra was dead as a door nail the minute it hit the ground, didn't even try to move.

I think the bullets I used are great but the 338 mag does have a lot to say for itself, in the hands of a hunter who can hit what he or she aims at. Recoil isn't as bad as some make out, and penetration is great.

I don't know about African game, but someone I know killed a grizzly about a week ago with one shot from his .338WM. The bear was running away after being shot one time with his partner's 7mm Magnum, so the 225-grain Swift A-Frame hit the bear at 170 yards. It hit it so hard that it hit the ground and it rolled down the side of a hill (very dead).

Here is some data from factory ammo:
.300WM sighted +1.6" at 100 yards
Federal 200-grain TB-HE
2930 fps muzzle/3810 foot-pound
2740 fps 100 yards/3325 foot-pound
2550 fps 200 yards/2885 foot-pound
2370 fps 300 yards/2495 foot-pound
2200 fps 400 yards/2145 foot-pound

Bullet drop:
+1.6," 100 yards
-6.9", 300 yards
-20.1", 400 yards

.338WM sighted +1.7" at 100 yards
Federal 225-grain TB-HE
2940 fps muzzle/4320 foot-pound
2690 fps 100 yards/3610 foot-pound
2450 fps 200 yards/3000 foot-pound
2230 fps 300 yards/2475 foot-pound
2010 fps 400 yards/2075 foot-pound

Bullet drop:
100 yards = +1.7"
300 yards = -7.5"
400 yards = -22.0"

A 250-grain HE out of the .338WM
2800 fps muzzle/4350 foot-pound
2610 fps 100 yards/3775 foot-pound
2420 fps 200 yards/3260 foot-pound
2250 fps 300 yards/2805 foot-pound
2080 fps 400 yards/2395 foot-pound

Yes, the 200-grain bullet from a .300WM may be faster, but take a look at the energy of a 225-grain bullet, from the muzzle out to 150 yards or so, out of a .338WM. The lighter and narrower bullet from a .300WM will shoot a little faster and flatter when compared to a heavier and fatter .33 bullet, but that's it.

In my view, the .338WM shoots much like a .300WM when lightweight bullets from 160 grains up to about 225 grains are used. But from perhaps 230-grain to 300-grain bullets the .338WM leaves the .300WM in the dust. That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the .300WM, nor the .338WM. All depends on if you like lighter bullets, or heavier and a little fatter ones.

By the way, I use a .338WM in Alaska, and some of my hunting partners use the .300WM and all sort of cartridges. I can tell you how both perform on Alaska game as I have seen both being used on game. I will take a .338WM over any .300WM for hunting in Alaska, but I would be perfectly happy with a .300WM if there were no .338's around.

[ 06-16-2002, 09:13: Message edited by: Ray, Alaska ]

I also have a .338 WM and I really like it - I use it for wild boar at home and in Africa for all plains game - so far I've had one shot kills on all animals from springbock up to kudu.

It's a great cartridge and my ideal lighter rifle in my two-gun battery (besides the .416 Rigby)

WH

Erik

To restart this thread! I hope to go on a plains hunt with my wife. I don't have but a few rifles and only one useful for an African Hunt. I have a .308 that my wife will use. Now I need a rifle. It seems to me I want to have something a bit more powerful, as I can always use the .308. The .308 does not tend to be efficient with bullet weights greater than 180gr.

That led me to the question of geting a .30 cal that will push the 200 grain bullets or stepping up to the .338.
See this link http://www.cwd.net/1/Ballistics-300vs338.pdf

If the Taylor KO #'s are valid, the .338 with its larger frontal area seems significantly "better". Trajectory is similar, etc.

So here is my thinking: I rather like the idea of the 300 short win mag in a short-action rifle. I don't have much "use" for the .338 for the other hunting I may do, hogs, whitetails, etc. And I would assume the recoil of the .338 is more unpleasant. However, I can't help but think a 250 gr. .338 bullet can be "better"!

Come on guys, help steer me in the right direction!

Thanks
Howard

[ 01-27-2003, 02:26: Message edited by: benzh ]

Craig Boddington's says the best two rifle combo for Africa is a 338/416 and it's tough to argue. Some say the 338 is neither fish nor fowl, but I've heard the same argument about the 375. In my view, it is a SUPERB caliber for plains game. Hell, I just picked up my new Accumark in 340. BUT on my next trip to Africa, I'll probably take my 300 H&H and Ruger 416 Rigby. Jorge

I might add to my above post that I have shot quite a number of Cape Buffalo with the 338 Win and Woodleigh 300 gr. softs and solids..Always used a solid first....

I have had great results with the 338 and have had quick enough kills with mostly 100 to 150 yard runs, but I prefer the 40 calibers...

As far as I can tell the 338, 9.3x62, 9.3x64, 9.3x74R and 375 all kill about the same from observation...but who knows.

Flip,
I used my 338 Win. Mag loaded with Federal Premium 225 grain trophy bonded bear claw bullets on my first safari during the first two weeks of September, 2001. I collected several head of plains game. This combination of caliber and bullet worked very well. It would go through both shoulders of wildebeast and zebra like they were not there! Needless to say, recovery of the trophy was at our leisure. This load dumped an impala off his feet with a frontal shot at 200 yards and destroyed a springbok chest at 220 yards! I have killed six North American black bear with this rifle and Remington Cor-Lokt, 225 grain bullets! The rifle is an out of the box Browning Stainless Stalker and it will hit the 300 yard steel pig with multiple factory loads. Get you a good 338 Win Mag, practice, learn your rifle and what it likes and go have fun in Africa!!!!!! Jeff

gas: Interesting. I shot a rather large zebra at 125 yards on the shoulder with my 375 H&H and 300gr Swift A Frames, handloaded to 2550 FPS. The bullet was recovered on the off side, ap perfect mushroom. The 338's higher SD appears to be true, as your 338 managed to punch through both shoulders. Anybody else concur? jorge

gas57

I bought a Custom built Kimber built 338 Winchester, it is very accurate with 225 grain Hornadys. Giving me less than 1 inch groups without me realy trying to get the smalles groups. I just loaded the maximum and got good results

I haven't used a 338 in Africa, but on moose it works great. I think better than the 300 mags, but not by a lot.

jorge,
I shoot both and I doubt that there is a lot of difference in penitration between them, if there is it isn't enough to sneeze at..sometimes they get two holes and sometimes they don't..both have all the penitration one needs..

I have seen Zebra stop most bullets from the 416's, 404, 338, 375 and I have seen them punch all the way through also....

I believe the 375, 9.3x62 and 338 are pretty equal and one would have a heck of a time determining which one is the best under actual field conditions..all good cartridges.

Ray: All good calibers to be sure. Interested to hear your opinion on my 2 rifle combo for my next Safari. JOrge

Then I guess the .30-06 must be sort of a "neither fish nor foul" cartridge as well, only more so than the .338 Winchester is. After all, if you run 180 gr. bullets through a .30-06 at 2700 fps. of thereabouts, you'll match the trajectory of a .338 Win. Mag. with 250 gr. bullets, yet that .338/250 gr. load is much more useful on a wider variety of animals, especially big stuff like eland, kudu, sable, and lions if necessary. It's not "too big" for any of the small animals, either. It's only too big if you can't shoot it, but then most folks can with a reasonable amount of practice.

I fail to see any advantage to the .338-06 either - just more complication. Whatever the .338-06 will do, the .338 Winchester will do in spades, and without the potential pitfalls of wildcat (not-well-established factory cartridge, actually).

AD

I've had some experience with the 338 WinMag in Alaska and really liked it but for Africa if I want something bigger than a 300 Magnum I will stick with my 375....if buffalo aren't on the quota I would use the 260gr Nosler or equivalent.
I don't see a lot of difference in recoil between the 338 WinMag and my 375 Lazz.

Benzh
Is I read your question, you have a 308 which your wife will use in Africa and you will use for your non African hunts. Consequently you need a rifle exclusively for Africa. That being the case why don't you go for a caliber that you can use on any African game, including dangerous game? I understand that this is a plains game hunt, but if you are like the rest of us by the time that this hunt is over you will be planning your next hunt, which may include dangerous game. I suggest that you consider the 375 H&H. The recoil is not bad, it will be as, or more, effective that the 338, and you will be set for any future hunt, with the possible exception of elephant. Whatever choice you make, shoot straight and have a great hunt.

The .338-06 does exactly what the .338 Win Mag does, in a lighter more compact gun, with less powder, and a greater magazine capacity. Why carry a 9-1/2 lb rifle up and down hill and dale, when I can carry a 7-1/2 lb one that has the same effect on game within 300Y or so.

Factory spec for the 210 Nosler Partition in the Win Mag is 2830 fps (Federal P338A2). For the .338-06 it is 2750 fps (Weatherby. Now I want to see someone argue that there is any practical difference at all in those loads on game. The 80 fps difference gets you maybe 10Y more of point blank range.

The .338-06 was well-established as a popular wildcat, is now a SAAMI-spec cartridge, and Weatherby reports that the rifle is selling very well. For larger game it is a good choice, better than the Win Mag within its class when all factors are considered. Those who have considerable $$$$ invested in custom Win Mags should enjoy them, but they are no more effective than a similar .338-06.

I started working with the .338 Win. Mag. about twenty-four years ago, and the .338-06 a few years after that. After much experimenting, all I can say is, case capacity still counts, not wishful thinking. With identical bullets, the .338 Win. Mag. will easily produce 200 fps. more velocity than the .338-06 if both are loaded to full potential, and that ain't hay.

Yeah sure, you can load the .338-06 hot to make it look good, then pick out some semi-anemic .338 Win. Mag. factory load to make them look sorta similar (there's still more than 100 fps. seperating the two anyway), but that won't cut any ice. You can easily get 2950 fps. with a 210 Nosler with good, hot-weather-safe handloads, and over 2700 fps. with 250 gr. bullets out of a .338 Win. Mag., and to say that sort of edge makes no difference is like saying the .30-06 has no edge over the .300 Savage.

Moreover, you can purchase Federal High-Energy .338 Win.Mag. ammo 225 gr. Trophy Bonded @2940 fps. or 250 gr. Nosler @2800 fps.

AD

It's true that case capacity counts - - but only for case capacity. How that extra 10 grains of powder and recoil velocity translates into killing effectiveness is another matter entirely, and there is not necessarily any correlation at all. In the case of the .338 Win Mag vs. the .338-06, I find there is little to be gained from the extra "power" of the Win Mag.

As Atkinson correctly implies, there is little observable difference in killing power between various cartridges within reason, including the .338 and the .300. Jack O'Connor saw little difference between the .338 and the .30-06 on elk, for that matter. These are not discussions of case capacities or muzzle energies or velocities. These are the observations of hunters with long experience of game shot with the various rounds. And from my more limited experience, I don't see much difference either on the game fields, as opposed to the chronograph or the ballistic chart.

The Nosler 210 grain bullet can be loaded to 2940 fps with IMR powder in the Win Mag; in the .338-06 to 2830 fps. Only in an arcane world of hair-splitting is any difference to be had, and in game effectiveness there is nil. Out to 300Y, within which most game is shot, there is no difference in effect. Both have over 2000 ft lbs of "energy" at that distance. Do you need more?

Your hot 2780 fps 250 grain bullet in the Win Mag, gets 2610 fps in the .338-06. The terminal action of the bullet at these velocity levels is far more important than a couple hundred foot pounds of energy, and energy has never been scientifcally proven (as opposed to hot stove discussions) to have any relation to killing power. It is used as a convenient measure of relativity, and that's it. Yet both have over 2000 ft lbs of "energy" at 400Y. Again, do you need more?

An important part of that bullet action is penetration. Heavier longer bullets penetrate better than their opposites, and so the .338 with 250 grain bullets will penetrate better than the .300 with 200 grain bullets, everything else being equal. This greater penetration is desirable on the bigger critters. That .338 calibre 250 grain bullet is going to penetrate to a practically equal degree out of the Win Mag or the .338-06, and maybe more at .338-06 velocity. The somewhat lower velocity of the .338-06 also allows it to effectively use the so-called "non-premium" bullets, which in most rifles are more accurate than the premium-priced super-heterodyne variety.

The added velocity of the Win Mag does have an effect on trajectory. Since you insist on beefing-up the Win Mag image with handloads, examine the ever-popular Nosler 210 grain bullet at 2940 fps in the Win mag, and an equivalent handload of 2830 fps in the .338-06. If both are zeroed for 200Y, the difference in drop at 300Y is less than 1". At 400Y it is only 2". I defy anyone to define that miniscule amount of drop under field conditions, with hunting rifles, on a game animal.

In practical effect on game in hunting conditions, there is no ballistic or terminal difference between these two rounds. What in fact exists is a measurable and perceived difference in recoil, a measurable difference in barrel life, a measurable difference in rifle weight and length, and a calculable difference in shooting cost: all in favor of the .338-06.

If you like the Win Mag for whatever non-scientific reason you want to believe, enjoy it! Life is short! But the non-committed shooter looking for a .33 bore would do well to consider the many advantages of the .338-06, rather than eating - - hay.

Jorge,
you couldn't picke a better pair...

As to the 300, 338, 338-06, it's all a matter of choice, I doubt if one is much better than the other..

My choice has been the 338 Win. as it will just do everything the 338-06 will do at the SAME recoil levels and a little more...I shoot a 300 H&H and a love it with 200 gr. Noslers, but I believe the 338 is the king as it performs on Buffalo and Eland better it seems and shoots about as flat for field shooting as I need..I haved noticed it leaves better blood trails by a good deal..The 300's seem to get a lot of instant kills but I can do the same with a 210 Nosler in a 338 at 3002 FPS....This is how I chose and nothing more than my personal observation..

Should I be given any one of the above calibers I'd be as happy as a pig in poop for what ever crossed my sights providing I had a few good solids in my pocket...

One thing to remember, although it may not be enforced the 375 is legal for big game and the other two are not, and knowing Africa like I do someone may decide to start enforcing that law tomarrow, you just never know...

Jorge,
you couldn't picke a better pair...

As to the 300, 338, 338-06, it's all a matter of choice, I doubt if one is much better than the other..

My choice has been the 338 Win. as it will just do everything the 338-06 will do at the SAME recoil levels and a little more...I shoot a 300 H&H and a love it with 200 gr. Noslers, but I believe the 338 is the king as it performs on Buffalo and Eland better it seems and shoots about as flat for field shooting as I need..I haved noticed it leaves better blood trails by a good deal..The 300's seem to get a lot of instant kills but I can do the same with a 210 Nosler in a 338 at 3002 FPS....This is how I chose and nothing more than my personal observation..

Should I be given any one of the above calibers I'd be as happy as a pig in poop for what ever crossed my sights providing I had a few good solids in my pocket...

One thing to remember, although it may not be enforced the 375 is legal for dangerous game and the other two are not, and knowing Africa like I do someone may decide to start enforcing that law tomarrow, you just never know...