The data for the 500 Nitro Express is "as has been published" in numerous places, but is not correct.

It includes the results for both the 500 Nitro Express and the 500 A-Square. I supplied both rifles and respective ammunition and was present during the test in Cody.

The 500 Nitro with 570 Woodleigh softs outpenetrated the 500 A-Square by over double. With softs, the 500 A-Square was like a hand grenade. Still have the expanded 500 A-Square bullet which expanded like a pancake over an inch wide and nearly no length.

With solids, the 500 A-Square outpenetrated the 500 Nitro and produced the 55 inch number. The 500 Nitro penetrated about 48 inches. These last two numbers for the solids are from memory and I will check them against my written records later.

Hammer

I would use what you have, sand. It should be simple enough to construct a trough with removable boards placed at set distances. They would allow to tell how far the bullet penetrated. It is what was used by the US Military over 100 years ago. Is not a good representation of living tissue, unless you can refrigerate a lot of ballistic gel....

quote:

a report from the Armory at Springfield, Massachusetts, May 9, 1879. It records the results of long range tests of U.S. Army Model 1873 .45-caliber rifles using 405 and 500-grain lead bullets, including variations in muzzle velocity and penetration of lead bullets through one-inch target boards and into sand. These tests were made at the request of the Chief of Ordnance.

Uh, from those Linebaugh tests, we now have proof that the .45/70 is a dangerous game cartridge!

The sand box bullet trap would tell us how various bullets and velocities work ... in sand.

Still it would be a very interesting starting point. One board as entrance target, then sheets of paper standing up in the sand to bear witness to tumbling, etc. Use a metal detector to excavate the at-rest position of the bullet as further clues for tumbling.

Still, not a game animal simulation. Less so than boards and water.

Dry sand or wet sand?

quote:

Hey, I thought good ol' Bob Hagel had gone on to the Happy Hunting Ground. RIP.

Just talked to Bob Hagel on the phone. We either had a bad telephone connection or his hearing is getting worse. But he is still alive.

Hammer

Thanks, BigRx. I have three of his books and always devoured anything he wrote, that I could find. He is one of the greats. I was just bum fuzzled that he has disappeared from print in recent years, long time no see. Say "Hi" from an old fan, to one of the best. Bob Hagel is a "Magnum's Magnum" of scribes.

Watching the Linebaugh test in Cody, a couple of things did become apparent.

Bullets do not always behave the way smart people think bullets should.

Bullet expansion does produce a parachute effect which reduces penetration. When a bullet starts to expand, its penetration is limited. As velocity goes up, expansion of the soft bullet increases, so penetration goes down. Don't know exactly how the controlled expansion bullet versus the conventional expanding bullet plays into the equation.

Not saying that expansion is good or bad. If the bullet penetrated enough to get to all the desired vital organs (functions), then the expansion and larger wound channel just further increases blood flow out and air rushing in.

All the handgun bullets tested were hard cast bullets which exhibited no expansion and should be compared to rifle solids. And yes those handgun bullets did penetrate a long ways.

Hammer

Has anyone looked at the Lutz Moller bullet penetration calculators?



http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Penetration_Calculator.html

I have used freshly cut OAK logs and have clearly observed more penetration with solids based on increased initial velocity and Caliber. The .600OK with Fritz 454 solids penetrates three feet of oak very easily while the 12 Ga FH with 1000gr solids at 3000fps will go through 5 feet. Now thats good penetration!-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
He is one of the greats. I was just bum fuzzled that he has disappeared from print in recent years, long time no see. Say "Hi" from an old fan, to one of the best. Bob Hagel is a "Magnum's Magnum" of scribes.

RIP and all,

I drove out to Hagel's place yesterday and didn't get a response.

Today I called and reach his daughter. We had a nice talk and I found out Bob's health wasn't very good. He is 89, and cannot hear at all. His daughter says he walks right by the phone and doesn't hear it most of the time. Not stable on his feet she told me; been falling.

She said he can't talk well at all on the phone his hearing is so bad and he is just too frail to have visitors.

I expressed we were talking about Bob here on line and all of us missed his writings; even re-reading his older work. (I will find his penetration formulas yet!)

She was pleased with this and said she would tell him he was still thought of highly and that we all said "Hi" and wished him the best....

BigRx

Big Rx,
Thanks again. Bob sounds about like my Pop. Bob can rest on his laurels. He has done it all already anyway, but is missed by his many fans who cut their teeth on his writings.

RIP, How about inflating a small baloon in the hole in the end of your trough. I think that it has some merit. What could be used to add some viscosity to the water that you could reproduce and be cheap? gduffey

quote:

Originally posted by gduffey:
RIP, How about inflating a small baloon in the hole in the end of your trough. I think that it has some merit. What could be used to add some viscosity to the water that you could reproduce and be cheap? gduffey

Yeah, that ought to work. A tough balloon or baggie full of water (not air), pressed up against the inside of the target hole in the stern of a rowboat full of water, or a loooong horse trough on sawhorses. Giddyup.

Water is tough enough and not messy. Wooden boards every foot of the way will add some "bone, muscle and hide" to the medium.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by gduffey:
What could be used to add some viscosity to the water that you could reproduce and be cheap? gduffey

Water is tough enough and not messy. Wooden boards every foot of the way will add some "bone, muscle and hide" to the medium.

Yes it is! Actually water is too tough! It is a good test for the "strength" of our bullet. Maybe a "solid" tutorial in a grammer school sense.....

But gduffey has made excellent points on both viscosity, reproduction, and cheap.......

A "slurry" mixture with the liquid blood thick, with a "flour" additive to make a cold "Cream of Wheat"! Water soluable, bio-degradable, etc. etc. Vary the mix until results mock recovered game bullets.

BigRx

I want to stick with clear water from the garden hose for aesthetics and ease.

I can build modular units from 3/4" exterior plywood, 4 feet long, and bolt together 2 or 3 units in a train if needed.

These will be 1 foot in cross-section, with a witness board every 1 foot along the trough.

2x4 or 4x4 or 6x6 struts and beams can serve as ribs/brackets/rails etc. Sheet metal deck hardware and screws will be handy.

The tank/trough does not have to be water tight. It could even be a skeleton-like framework. Plastic garbage bags will be placed in each one-cubic-foot compartment and filled with water.

The target end of the apparatus will have a hole cut in the 3/4" plywood to shoot through. The garbage bags will contain the water and be filled enough to bulge over the top of each compartment. When they burst the water will go skyward and hopefully not damage the apparatus.

The slots/brackets holding the witness boards will be worked out for sturdiness and ease of switching boards.

The thickness and toughness of the witness boards will be adjusted as needed for satisfactory spread in range of penetration depth for the various bullets, so they may distinguish themselves from 1 foot to 10 feet capability.

Penetration units may then be given on a scale of 0 to 10 "BOARD FEET OF WATER."

If the bullet lodges in the board, that is 1/2 board feet of water for that compartment. If it bounces off the board, that is zero. If the bullet successfully traverses the 1 foot of water and passes through the board backing that water compartment, that is one board feet of water, or "One Unit of Penetration." Hmmm ... penetration ... wood ...

This apparatus shall be called "The RIP Bullet Coffin."

RIP,

If get up to the shed tomorrow and it ain't snowing, will send you a picture of your RIP Bullet Coffin.

Hammer

quote:

Originally posted by Hammer:
RIP,

If get up to the shed tomorrow and it ain't snowing, will send you a picture of your RIP Bullet Coffin.

Hammer

Hammer,
Great minds think alike, eh? I am dying to see your RIP Bullet Coffin.

Am sure everyone knows by now, but since he was mentioned so many times in this specific thread, will repeat...

Bob Hagel has passed away.

He will be respectfully remembered by many of us.


Hammer