Bwana, if you don't understand the difference between a profit and a business expense that has to be built into product costs, I'm not sure it's them you should be calling stupid.

That word might be more effeciently directed elsewhere.

Personally, I sometimes wonder why so many do go and I suspect that after this present financial slowdown, fewer will.

Whether they go or not, I wish them all well.

Larry,

I'm not wrong. Believe me, the dollar rules there of all places and I guarantee a big enough donation will always buy even a new exhibitor prime placement. Hell, I'd bet that if I paid them enough, they'd even give it to me.

Safari is a Ki-Swahili word that means journey and to use it in the context of an Alaskan trip or anywhere wlse in the world surely has to be stretching even American English to it's very extreme. That comment isn't meant to insult America, Americans or American English, just to point out that it's a somewhat tenuous link to put the words Alaska (etc) with the word safari. At least, it is to this Englishman.

Actually, I reckon they ought to change the name completely and rename it either the Roundabout Club, because the arguments always go round and round and never get anywhere or alternatively, call it the Bankers Club....... not sure if I spelt the word Bankers correctly though.

LOL you are a real class act. So its worth it for them to go there no matter what. Hence the reason they dont stop going and yet they never stop bitching. Must be nice to be all knowing, and never ever under any circumstance be wrong or admit to it. This is embarrassing as usual. Set us up with some more links to your web site we all know it holds all the anwers as usual. If you spend as much time in the bush as you do here flooding the board with all your facts and SCI arguments I have no doubt you may be one of the best out there at what you do.

You need to read more carefully. I've already said in several posts both here and elewhere, that I've decided to go into what might be termed semi retirement. We'll still run the company and I'll still hunt with certain selected clients but only on a limited basis. The rest will be done by the other (read younger) guys. I also said I'd probably still do the occasional freelance cat hunt for good friends.

Of course, even when I'm away, I can usually manage to access the net with the BGAN.

I don't know what that means, but if it's meant to suggest you doubt my qualifications, you'll find 'em all over both the websites in my signature.

Where will I find your's?

WOW, I wonder you those few select clients may be, do they have to kiss your arse to have the privilege to hunt with you and the lesser "clients" get the newbes.

Glad to see at least one American knows how to spell the word arse correctly!

No, no-one has to kiss my arse, but neither should they expect me to kiss theirs. I'm always honest and don't believe a man should be treated differently because of his name, rank or fortune (or lack thereof)...... and with me, they're not. I judge a man by his behaviour and nothing else. On the other side of the coin, I also treat ALL my staff with politeness, courtesy and respect and in return, I get the same kind of treatment.

As for which clients I'll hunt with. Almost all will be past clients who have become old friends/hunting buddies who I've been hunting with for years. I guess occasionally new clients but I tend to think it's better and fairer for all concerned to let them form relationships with the other (younger) guys rather than me.

We don't ever employ newbies. All of our guys are absolutely top notch and extremely experienced. We get quite a lot of applications for work, but never take anyone on like that.

So far, all the guys have been (if you'll pardon the pun) headhunted.

Shakari - Speaking as SOMEONE who DOES exhibit at SCI, occasionally, and DSC every year! I assure you, giving a BIG donation at SCI does NOT get you everything you want or the way you want it! Mr. Sellers is right, it helps, but longevity/contributions combined are the #1 factor considered by SCI for booth placement, etc. Case in point, in 2009 I gave a $32,000.00 Zambian Leopard Hunt(100%) donation to secure a booth space as I had been absent for several years as an exhibitor, and I wanted back in. I requested two booths, gave a deposit for 2 booths, but received ONLY one, and originally was rejected as the hall was full. A couple exhibitors dropped out, and I got in!!! So, if taking the money was the ONLY motivation for SCI, I am sure I would have soared in with no problem! A long waiting list does exist, and I am sure that I was at the top of the heap considering my large donation, but they did still abide by the rule of first come - first serve, until a space came available for me

Secondly, I have been in the hunting industry for the past 17 years, and I spent alot of 2006 - 2008 (3 years) helping a friend with a Large Commercial Concrete Company in Dallas, TX. (Sub-Contracting) If the profit margins were anywhere near as low in the hunting industry as they are in the contracting business, EVERY HUNTING BUSINESS ON THE PLANET WOULD BE BANKRUPT IN 1 YEAR!!! The Company operated on about a 9-12% profit margin on average, which is fairly normal for that industry. Nobody in the hunting biz is doing that!!!!

Aaron
Global Hunting Resources

By the way, for my $32,000.00 donation, plus paying for the booth, etc. My placement was less than PRIME!!! I gotta wait in line for the best spots, just like everyone else!!!

Aaron,

Them someone else offered more than you did. It's that simple. As an example of that, if it's not a simple case of money, why do they accept OoA so regularly? - It surely ain't it's good reputation for honesty and/or customer service, is it?

I've no idea what profit margin US concrete companies work on but I can tell you now that most hunting safari companies work on extremely low profit margins compared to the industries I mentioned, (esp those that have to pay agents) all of whom operate on something like a 100% mark up or close to it in most countries. Many industries such as art, traditionally work on that as a bare minimum.

I note you say you've worked in the hunting indutry for the last 17 years, yet your profile doesn't say anything other than 'Global Hunting Resources' and neither does a quick Google on your name and that phrase turn anything up....... can I ask what your web address is please?

Regarding SCI and it's Ideas about ethics and hunt donations; I have two words:

USANGU SAFARIS

LOL WOW

Shakari - You didn't read my post very well!! It wasn't that someone offered more than me, it's that NO SPOTS were originally open! I got in because someone didn't renew their booth!

Who works on a 100% mark up, are you referring to agents???

www.globalhuntingresources.com

Shakari before you tell others they need to read more carefully you should do the same yourself Bwana.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Bill,

Like yourself, I really have no fight in this either. I am a Life Member of SCI, but have never been to the exhibition, nor would it affect me if I went. As I would not need any space. But, every single African PH and outfitter that I have ever come across is not happy with the way SCI allocates them space at the exhibition. Not a single one. The $60,000 I have posted was the total monetary value posted in links of things SCI did in Africa. You might be right that African outfitters and PHs are not the largest source of income for SCI, but, I suspect they are a big part nonetheless. And they do feel they are being short-changed by SCI's behaviour. A lot - in fact - ALL that I know were not very happy the way SCI turned a blind eye to Out Of Africa's performance in Zimbabwe a while back. And, rightly or wrongly, they attribute this to how much OOA has "donated" to SCI. All these things add up to a rather sad picture of SCI. And I am sure like most hunters, I certainly don't like to see them seen this way. That is why we are asking questions, hoping that this might get cleared up.

I have passed some of the comments on the AR forums on to Ken James, who has passed them to others. I would hope that answers will be forthcoming.

As for the Out of Africa situation, I know nothing about it other than what Steve has explained in a PM, and what I was told is scandalous.

However, the African outfitters I know -- Geoff Broom, Coenraad Vermaak, Henri de Yeager, Sandy Cox, Jan Oelofse, Johan Calitz, Henri van Aswegen, Basie Martins and many others -- have never complained to me about SCI's "behavior" over the many years of our acquaintance.

Bill Quimby

Thank you Aaron for proving my point - there none so blind as those that won't see. I am sure Steve knows someone that knows someone that knows someone that knows someone etc.

Your first hand expereince flies in the face of his "logic" and he will die before admitting he is just plain fucking wrong.

Steve you must be a Dutchman posing as a bloody Brit. Oh hell no we dutch are brighter.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Matt

All a newcomer has to do to get pride of place is give a larger donation than the competitors and he'll be at the top of the tree on his first show. Size of donation is how OoA continue to be permitted to exhibit despite umpteen complaints against them and the same policy also dictates who gets PH of the year.

That is simply not true Steve - otherwise my company would have been muscled out of our place long ago ... by companies who can afford much larger donations - sometimes marked-up way beyond retail value. We are ranked 50 something from 1200 companies, according to our support of the club over the last 20 years. We give a normal donation each year that we think we can afford. We do have the option of a minimum cash donation ($600 per booth) but we choose the hunt donation because at the end of the day we would rather an extra hunter than missing capital in the short term.

So, any exhibitor placed higher than us gets to choose their booth placement before us and no exhibitor below us can displace us. Booths are assigned in open meetings - and if there is any funny business there is hell to pay.

The only time I think this was obviously flouted was when Cabelas came in - but obviously there were long-term reasons why they wanted Cabelas there. and no doubt the club and all exhibitors have benefited by Cabelas being their and promoting the club to a wider audience.

All of this may change slightly of course when they move to a new larger venue - as there may be a big increase in the number of available booth spaces, so a wave of companies will have booths available.

I cannot really comment first-hand on OOA - as I was not privy to any ethics committees or anything like that but I figure that SCI does not play international cop in this regard. If OOA was in any trouble with the authorities in the USA (because of OOA business dealings) then they wouldnt be allowed back into the country. The only real complaint I have heard from clients was that they were being harassed by their own government for hunting with OOA - but like I say - they still let them into the USA!!....maybe not all the hunters trophies though...I dont know...

As for the silly comment Steve about the 'safari' word thing. So, it is a Swahili word meaning journey??? Lots of different words find there way into different languages. Last I heard Swahili wasnt a language of South Africa either (correct me if I am wrong) - so why do Brits in South Africa use it ('safari') for themselves?? Maybe all Africans are allowed to share all there languages and words indiscriminately? OR Is there some kind of double-standard you are practicing there in SA?? Maybe the Kenyans should have had the word internationally protected like the French did with their wine regions - then maybe no hunting company would be allowed to use the word Safari!!

Great comment Matt. Mr. Graham is an exibitor at SCI, has been as he said for some 20 odd years. I would think the likes of some here who continue to babble their own gloom and doom about SCI, would realize that Matt obviously knows the proceedures for booth space assignments, donation procedures, and every in and out of being an exhibitor at SCI.

It does very little for the total credtability of those who continue to "know it all" about the SCI Convention and their workings when they haven't even been to the Convention and some are not even members. This lends me to believe maybe one should not place too much faith in anything these folks are saying??

For some reason a couple people here really seem to have it in for OOA? Maybe their information on OOA is as unreliable as their information about how SCI operates?

Oh Steve, here in the USA we even have "Surfin Safaris".

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Great comment Matt. Mr. Graham is an exibitor at SCI, has been as he said for some 20 odd years. I would think the likes of some here who continue to babble their own gloom and doom about SCI, would realize that Matt obviously knows the proceedures for booth space assignments, donation procedures, and every in and out of being an exhibitor at SCI.

It does very little for the total credtability of those who continue to "know it all" about the SCI Convention and their workings when they haven't even been to the Convention and some are not even members. This lends me to believe maybe one should not place too much faith in anything these folks are saying??

For some reason a couple people here really seem to have it in for OOA? Maybe their information on OOA is as unreliable as their information about how SCI operates?

Oh Steve, here in the USA we even have "Surfin Safaris".

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

Matt,

OK, I guess I can accept your point about how languages evolve and maybe it's because I'm down here in Africa that it sounds so rucking fidiculous to refer to hunts in places like Alaska as a safari......... but I do accept your point.

However, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about donations and rankings. I truly believe that th dollar rules and a large enough donation will buy anyone, anything by way of location or some/many other services. However, I'm sure that donation would have to be a very appreciable amount. I don't think anyone can accuse SCI of ever being cheap.

Maybe the OoA thing isn't such big news over there, but pretty much everywhere else in the world their dealings are well known. I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds it suprising at the least that they're still allowed to exhibit. The only reason can be that they make considerable donations to the organisation and that as I said previously, the dollar rules.

Aaron,

No, I wasn't referring to agents working on a 100% markup. You must have misread my post. I was referring to many indistries in many places working on those kinds of figures......... but thank God, not agents!

I see that PH of The Year was mentioned. Hasn't a number of those awarded this have turned out to be nothing short of criminals?

In fact, many people have mentioned that anytime they see that an individual had been awarded PH Of The Year from SCI, it is the best reason to avoid hunting with him.

That is why so many of the best PH avoid putting their names down for this award.

Yep, SCI is doing great for us as hunters.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


Yep, SCI is doing great for us as hunters.

Wow, you guys keep clutching at straws eh? And you keep pulling the short straw. Now the score is: Rest of the world 198 - England/UAE 0.

Saeed, can you tell me the names of ALL the African safari operators you know who are dissatisfied with SCI? You have been harping on about that issue on thread after thread, but we don't know who they are. Might they just be the fellows you hunt with, perhaps? I, like billquimby, know quite a number of operators who are satisfied with the service they get from SCI. Why are you generalizing and painting all African operators with the same brush? I'm sure there are plenty of African operators who don't want you speaking for them, insofar as SCI or anything else is concerned. Who elected you African operator spokesman? Who are ALL these operators that are so bleak about the service they get from SCI? Come on man, facts now - you are always whining about wanting facts and yet you provide none yourself. I could post an extensive list of Zim operators who have bought a booth at SCI every year for many years, and who will undoubtedly continue to do so. These are not stupid men, so I'm certain they feel that attending the convention benefits them. Surely they wouldn't continue attending if they thought they were being ripped off time and again?

Your sarcastic comment 'SCI is doing great for us as hunters' should rather be directed at you and Steve. Yep, you guys sure are doing great for us as hunters with your baseless accusations. The truth is that you are doing nothing for hunting by spouting all this unsubstantiated drivel. Kindly stop harping on about facts - you are the one with the accusations, you provide the facts. Which operators in particular feel they are being ripped off by SCI? Tell us, we are all ears. As far as I can see, only one side in this debate has provided any facts at all, and it's not the combined England/UAE team, which explains the scoreline...I guess at 198 down you are starting to get desperate, hence the aimless swinging.....

Dave

Good luck getting an answer David they sure as hell want them but most surely won't give them out themselves.

Rest assured there are many that feel the way they do, they just dont speak up and most definetly will not be named.

Same old shit different day.

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


Yep, SCI is doing great for us as hunters.

Wow, you guys keep clutching at straws eh? And you keep pulling the short straw. Now the score is: Rest of the world 198 - England/UAE 0.

Saeed, can you tell me the names of ALL the African safari operators you know who are dissatisfied with SCI? You have been harping on about that issue on thread after thread, but we don't know who they are. Might they just be the fellows you hunt with, perhaps? I, like billquimby, know quite a number of operators who are satisfied with the service they get from SCI. Why are you generalizing and painting all African operators with the same brush? I'm sure there are plenty of African operators who don't want you speaking for them, insofar as SCI or anything else is concerned. Who elected you African operator spokesman? Who are ALL these operators that are so bleak about the service they get from SCI? Come on man, facts now - you are always whining about wanting facts and yet you provide none yourself. I could post an extensive list of Zim operators who have bought a booth at SCI every year for many years, and who will undoubtedly continue to do so. These are not stupid men, so I'm certain they feel that attending the convention benefits them. Surely they wouldn't continue attending if they thought they were being ripped off time and again?

Your sarcastic comment 'SCI is doing great for us as hunters' should rather be directed at you and Steve. Yep, you guys sure are doing great for us as hunters with your baseless accusations. The truth is that you are doing nothing for hunting by spouting all this unsubstantiated drivel. Kindly stop harping on about facts - you are the one with the accusations, you provide the facts. Which operators in particular feel they are being ripped off by SCI? Tell us, we are all ears. As far as I can see, only one side in this debate has provided any facts at all, and it's not the combined England/UAE team, which explains the scoreline...I guess at 198 down you are starting to get desperate, hence the aimless swinging.....

Dave

BEAUTIFUL!!!!

There are no doubt truths on both sides.

It is rather odd to me the number of professional hunters that are named PH of the year that end up being common criminals.

It is also rather odd how long it takes SCI to take action on really bad guys like USANGU for example.

On the other hand, after all the bitching and complaining about the cost of the convention on this and other threads, now that I have seen the cost, I have ask to myself WTF? It is nothing. It is not an abnormal amount. I spend more than that on a single business dinners. Hell, if this strains a safari company, I don't want to go with them. They are not financially stable.

This kind of reminds me of my ex wife. She has nothing to do after she went to the gym and had her hair and nails done. Every chicken shit thing was a problem. I always said "The little-est thing become the biggest things." In her case,it was because her boob size was higher than her IQ. I am not sure why here.

It does seem that it is a reasonable question to find out how much is spent in Africa.

Saeed you say a number of the PH's of the year are nothing short of criminals, would you like to list them as I surely would want to avoid them if what you state are FACTS. As Joe Friday said "Just the facts mam." Oh yea I aqm sure you have many reasons not to stick to facts.

Steve, I find it interesting when you are presented with facts by an exhibitor your answer is well don't confuse me with facts because they don't agree with my OPINION. It is just that an opinion and like ass holes everyone has one.

They can start with David van der Mulen.
One of the biggest frauds ever perpetrated on hunters. That one is an absolute fact. See the latest edition of the hunting report.

There are at least 3 other I believe.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Larry,

I'm not wrong. Believe me, the dollar rules there of all places and I guarantee a big enough donation will always buy even a new exhibitor prime placement. Hell, I'd bet that if I paid them enough, they'd even give it to me.

Safari is a Ki-Swahili word that means journey and to use it in the context of an Alaskan trip or anywhere wlse in the world surely has to be stretching even American English to it's very extreme. That comment isn't meant to insult America, Americans or American English, just to point out that it's a somewhat tenuous link to put the words Alaska (etc) with the word safari. At least, it is to this Englishman.

Actually, I reckon they ought to change the name completely and rename it either the Roundabout Club, because the arguments always go round and round and never get anywhere or alternatively, call it the Bankers Club....... not sure if I spelt the word Bankers correctly though.

DOJ

That's not what I said at all but it is in line with your typical misquotes etc. The fact is that Matt and I disagree on the fact that the dollar rules at the show. Nothing more and nothing less.

As to PH of the year, all you have to do as a member is look up the names of recent ones and see how many have turned out to be dodgy. As Larry says, David van der Muelen is a prime example. While you're looking 'em up, you might also like to look up what they donated before getting the award........ if you can find the information.

Larry,

I know guys who's total cost of attending the convention is easily in the 5 figures...... so is there any chance of my getting invited to one of your business dinners please? Hey, I'm only joking but my point was that the booth cost is just the tip of the iceberg.

Steve, what else should rule beside the $. First it was about "donations" now it is just the $. What is next on your loosing list. Back peddle again. I mean what else should rule - the size of the outfitters wife's boobs?

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter: I mean what else should rule - the size of the outfitters wife's boobs?

ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!

Now wait a minute Jeff, they could be big but sagging to her knees. LOL!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Steve, what else should rule beside the $. First it was about "donations" now it is just the $. What is next on your loosing list. Back peddle again. I mean what else should rule - the size of the outfitters wife's boobs?

If you can't see that the dollar ruling the roost and the donation system are one and the same thing you shouldn't be allowed out the front door on your own.

What's the weather like on planet DOJ and is it ruled by an elected government or an idiotocracy?

Not what I had in mind Larry, I was more thinking along the lines of Mrs. Jeff Rann...

Holy F*ck cash and donated hunts are one in the same. The donated hunts are greatly ovder valued by the donor and if the "donated hunt or product" doesn't sell the donor gives up nothing. The cash is gone. A hunt say valued at $25,000 is normally discounted and if the reserve is not met it doesn't sell. Also the hunt valued at $25,000 is probable costing the donor say $10,000 out of pocket.

I hear you Jeff.

Something like this Jeff/Larry?



Sorry, I know we are supposed to be discussing the merits (or lack of) of SCI, but this is so much more interesting!

Dave

Guys! This stuff is all really public information.

The SCI Convention Exhibitor Rules and Proceedures are very public and posted for sll to see HERE.

The Exhibitor Ranks are likewise very public HERE.

It seem so very unlikely that just anyone would be able to jump in line,too, too, quickly at least.

[it appears that a "Priority Point" equates to +/- $1000 of actual received income from a donation, and other [few] points may be received for longevity of participation]



Alrighty then! As Mr. Hulme so eloquently points out above [well, I mean way above!], it is hard to imagine how all this harping and infighting is useful or beneficial to the industry, or to us here.

Sure, I realize that the owner can say and do whatever he pleases here, but we don''t have to play along.

Les

David:

Those work for me!