The H&K in 223...

The Military rifles are the 33, the 33k and the 53.

For Civilian sales it was the H&K 93.

I have used a 93, and a 33k as work guns, and I have shot a 53 a fair amount.

The H&K's are very accurate and very reliable.

It is a shame that the Assault Weapons Ban stopped their importation.

I have never had any problems with AR 223 type rifles, but the H&K's have always worked great for me, and I do feel they are more reliable in harsh and primitive conditions.

I wouldn't call them a "sleeper" as the accuracy of these as well as the 30/06 was legendary. However they were expensive at the time and, of course, wrecked the brass!
Peter.

My friend had a 93 in the late 80s/early 90s. I coveted that rifle but couldn't afford it before the weapons ban which made it impossible to get one. I do think we are in the next "golden era" of military rifles since the assault ban. You have;

ARs that are more affordable than ever
Gas Piston ARs (Ruger 556)
Steyr Aug 3 and clones (MSAR 556)
FN SCAR
FN FS2000
Sig 556
Bushmaster ACR

There are a ton of great rifles on the market right now with state of the art designs.

I had more time with the MP5 than the 33 or 53 and other than the forward position of the HK cocking levers, I think all of them are a hoot.

It is too bad we can't a factory HK roller lock anymore, especially since the Germans are probably cutting them up as surplus now.

But, if I am not mistaken, it was not AWB in 94 signed by Clinton which stopped their importation. That law sunset'ed in 2004.

Instead, wasn't it an executive order from Bush I that killed it in 89? That was codified in 1990 with Title 18 922R which Bush also signed and is still in effect. Possibly one of the dumbest laws ever written, too, besides GCA68 and NFA34.


Ironic that a "free American" can't buy a surplus foreign rifle but we "allow" every Iraqi household to retain one select fire AK for self defense. So much for freedom....

Peter, actually the brass form an H&K 223 or 308 is very reloadable.

I did a test one time in a H&K 91.

I had 10 different military headstamped cases and one civilian case.

Everytime I went to the range I would shoot these 11 rounds first, [I did have a buddy picking them up as they hit the ground so they would not be lost].

After 10 reloads they were still going strong with no signs of failure.

I have reloaded for the 223 H&K's as well.

NE, it could be just urban legend, but I know that the fired brass I saw from the rifle of a friend of mine looked like "s--t"! Having said that, while I regret not buying one when they came out, I thought they were overpriced back then, albeit superbly accurate. I friend of mine still has one (in 30.06)
peter.

Peter, the brass does look a little ragged after being fired, but I have had no problems reloading it with normal RCBS dies.

After is is shot 5 or 6 times the flute marks seem to even out.

Also I have never seen an H&K that would not shoot sporting soft point bullets.

H&K a sleeper? Very accurate?

I don't think so. I have an HK-91 and love it for what it is. A reliable 7.62 self-loader that looks really cool. I've shot a handful of deer with it and it is my nasty weather go-to rifle.

The HK-93 is less appealing to me as there are a plethora of better designs out their. I have found that HKs are very far from "very accurate". Back when they were available, you could spend ~$14,000 (pre 1989 dollars) to buy a PSG-1 sniper variant of the HK-91 which can not even begin to hold a candle accuracy wise to the AR-10 variants that you can buy for ~$2,000. In today's dollars, that same PSG-1 would likely be ~$20,000 and still be just as inaccurate. However, HK's do tend to be accurate if you are comparing them to early Ruger mini-14s.

Also, the reliability of the HK roller lock design is over rated. They are reliable, but I don't think they are as reliable as the M-16 design with good mags as long as they are both kept clean. Parts are very expensive. Where the HK really shines is how well it functions without lubrication full of fouling/dirt. In that preselected operating condition, it is more reliable than its contemporaries. For everyday use with proper maintenance, I would rather stake my life on an AR-design. The HK is prone to ejector and extractor problems and uses a downright stupid and hard to replace "hairpin" extractor spring. A coil spring is a much better bet. I've seen first hand Mp-5s and HK-91's with significant reliability problems due to ejector/extractor issues.

HK-93
Heavy as hell for a 5.56mm military rifle=yes
magazines are specific to this rifle= yes
parts are difficult to obtain and expensive=yes
trigger pull is TERRIBLE (like a cheap revolver)=yes
mounting a scope requires expensive, difficult to find scopemounts and even if low profile still put the scope too high to get a good cheek weld= yes
terrible ergonomics compared to ARs, SCAR, AUG, and Sig 556=yes
lacks a last round bolt hold open mechanism= yes


The design is relatively archaic, and there are just better designs out their now. This thing was cutting edge in the 1940's though. I love my HK91 and the sound that it makes as it shucks a 7.62 case with vigor. As another poster pointed out, we live in the second golden age for military style rifles now with many better designs for sale.

I recently purchased one of the MSAR rifles that the poster mentioned and it is incredible. It is basically an improved AUG design and if it came down to needing a rifle to defend myself with I would grab it long before I reached for my HK91 or one of my ARs. I also am remorseful that we can't get new HK rollerlocks anymore as they are pretty neat guns (In fact, I would give my left arm for a MP-10). For practical uses though, they just don't have the edge anymore. They are GOOD rifles by today's standards, but not GREAT rifles. Do any countries other than crap holes like Pakistan even use these anymore. I'm not an expert on this, but I think Norway and Portugal abandoned the design. I know Germany dumped it several years ago.



Wes

I had one and it was a decent gun but i wouldnt trade my ar10 for another.

Man H&K make great weapons. I love the MP5's we have at work. I looked into building one but really hard to do without a receiver. And a fortune on top of that.

I'm also very fond of the USP pistols. Gotta love German engineering. Very reliable.

Wes I can only state what my experience with the H&K's has been.

I have used a lot of 223 AR rifles as well with no roblems, but I feel in rough duty that the H&K 223's are more reliable.

As ro accuracy once I was developing Prairie dog loads for a SAKO 223. Instead of loading 5 of each different load I loaded 10 and shot the H&K 93 and the SAKO side by side at 100 yards. The SAKO had a fixed 8x56 Kahles, and the H&K a fixed 4x24 S&B scope.

The SAKO was the sporter barreled version.

Most of the groups from the H&K were better than the groups from the SAKO. I did find a good load for the SAKO that shot better than the H&K, but when you looked at all the targets after the test the H&K shot tighter groups once they were averaged.

As far as the 308 H&K 91, I have seen very good accuracy from them as well.

Also you can shoot a group, then shoot 20 rounds rapid fire, and then shoot a second group, and it will be right on top of the first.

The barrels on the H&K's are totally free floated. There is not gas system, and the forearm is not attached to the barrel.

I have shot several gorus at 400 yards smaller than the palm of my hand.

My work 91 would hit a chest sized plate at 850 yards, 20 times in a row as fast as a person could recover, re aim and press the trigger.

I like the factory trigger, maybe because I have shot one so much, but the trigger from the PSG 1 will drop right in the 91 and companies like Williams can do good trigger jobs.

The H&K factory scope mounts go on and off with no loss of zero, and the biod does not change you zero.

You can change the rear stock just by pushing out two pins.

Many years ago we tried two different 308 AR's for use as multiround Sniper rifles, and niether functioned reliable enough. This was some years back, I think at least one of the companies has their rifle working and shooting pretty good now, I shot one of them a bunch a coule of years ago.

While I like the FAL, and the M14/M1 A, and even the Garand, my favorite of the 308's for rough duty is the H&K.

I have shot several deer and antelope with mine.

450 NE,
I'm glad you've had such great experiences accuracy wise with the roller-lock guns. I have not had the same luck as the ones I've shot have been about 2-3MOA rifles with scopes. Don't get me wrong, I love the HK's and that unmistakable sound they make on ejection. I'm in agreement with you that of all the 7.62 service rifles, I would take the G3 above all others. I suspect the 7.62 version of the SCAR will be an overall superior weapon, but only time will tell. I would never consider selling my HK-91 as it has too much sentimental value alone.


I don't have a 93, but have shot them. I would never feel poorly armed with a 93, but would never choose one for the reasons laid out in my previous post. I've thought about getting one of those cheap 93 clones being made from Malaysian parts kits. They can be obtained for less than 600 dollars and would make a very reliable "truck gun" if assembled correctly.

I'm sure you already have plenty of spare parts for your HKs (extractors, extractor springs, cocking handle springs, firing pin, etc. Just in case you need any HK91 parts, this guy : RTG Parts has lots of new surplus HK parts such as new in the wrap locking pieces for $12. You can't beat that. These springs/parts will be virtually impossible to obtain in the near future as they are specific to the purpose and production of these weapons has halted.

Wes

Wes, thanks for the reply.

And the link to RTG, I have done business with him in the past.

Always good to deal with.