First let me qualify that I know next to nothing about AR platform rifles except that I have a few and enjoy shooting them.

That said...I am looking to buy or build an AR carbine in .450 Bushmaster and I am having trouble finding one.

Any suggestions?

Dr. Easter,

I was going to suggest Palmetto State Armory, but a quick search showed they are all out of stock. I have no experience with the caliber, but it is intriguing. Good luck.

I didn't know there are so many rifles available in 450 Bushmaster:

https://www.brownells.com/fire...htm?k=450+bushmaster

https://www.midwayusa.com/s?ta...sistedItemsPerPage=0

https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...bushmaster-16-barrel

https://www.rockriverarms.com/...lay&category_ID=1905

Thank you kindly ME. I ended up buying one of those.

I hope you enjoy it. I'm sure you will.

I recently put together a 458 SOCOM upper 16" carbine. I had some of the parts for years and a lower and finally got the rest of the parts.

The next part is to get it to feed properly. I think the problem is my handloads. I'm waiting on a new set of dies.

I have built a lot of 458s but never a 450, until this week; have not started on it but it is not really a build; all the parts just need assembling. Unlike the 458s I build in which I thread and chamber and contour the barrels.
Anyway, on 458 feeding, you might need to tweak the magazine lips; I use only plastic magpuls. And sure, the loads need enough port pressure to make them work; they are very touchy about that as it is a very low pressure cartridge.
I use Lee 458 dies; work great. Don't have any 450 dies yet. Why did I get the 450? Curiosity. I like the 458s as they shoot rifle bullets.

The 450 seems to be very popular and lots of firearms to choose from.

I borrowed a 223 magazine to try with my 458 SOCOM.

Tell me if you have used the Lee factory crimp die and if you like it.

I built a complete 450 Bush upper using a barrel from Brownells and baubles from all around....VERY simple and quick swap.

Buy some single shot followers from Fremont Tools Co., on Fleabay, they work great converting ANY 223 mag for use with the 450 B rounds...I use 20(6-7 rounds) and 30(10-11 rnds) round aftermarket and colt mags...some futzing required but usually just load-up and crank off.

I use Lee dies but HATE Lee seaters, they will work with some easy mods but suck anyway...I use Lyman 45-70, or RCBS 458 WM seaters most of the time...again some modifications required...and a 450 B FCD to crimp tightly.

I've tried many of the available .452 cal jacketed bullets...Fury bullets will customize to a certain extent....the only bullets that caused the redazz were the LeHigh X-Pen 250 gr...those nose grooves hung up in the bolt lock recesses a couple times or would hang just enough to not chamber completely...could have been just my barrel breaking in or mag ???? I like the Fury 275 or the Barnes XPB, 200/250 gr Horn FTX do well on sage rats.

I ran QL numbers for several powders and bullet weights with ≈275 gr weights coming out on top as far as top velos and energy were concerned but that also depends on the nose profile..."pointy" ones do better than FN/RN's but I'm more interested in accuracy so the Fury 275 gr "pointy" W/cannelure works best for me and the Horny's are always accurate...so...

I didn't like all the mucking about and cost with cases etc., with the 458 SOCOM so only researched it a short time until I hit the case/cost snag....but...Hey...do the ones YOU like, forget the nitpicking...and it does have its pros.

Someday I might do a 50 cal on an AR10 receiver and get ALL the available ballistic juice... Anyone for a 500 S&W, 50 B&M or 500 Cyrus???? FORGET that puny 50 Beowulf...Hahahahah

Good Hunting

Borrowed a magazine?
That is confusing as you sort of need those to operate
AR platform rifles. I use only plastic Magpuls; they feed smoother. Minor alteration required. If you get serious. I can tell you how.
I have never used a taper crimp die of any make; I have found no need for them. Lee dies work fine for me and I have at least 80 sets of dies from every maker. I counted them once but promptly forgot.

quote:

Borrowed a magazine? That is confusing as you sort of need those to operate

I just intend to try it to see if the magazine I have is the problem or part of the problem. If it is then I know to not order another like it. The tech support from Brownells recommended the one I have when I ordered the other parts. It's specific to the 450 Bushmaster, and the guy said it works for the 458 SOCOM just as well. I'm not so sure about that now.

I'll order more magazines - don't worry. And I'll probably take your advice on the plastic Magpuls.

I have only one Magpul mag for my 308 AR10 and it worked great...EMPTY...load it up and it "fattened up"...it expanded width wise, was difficult to insert, hard to get out and jammed every 3rd or 4th round...worked fairly well with 4-5 down...and the same for the 338 Fed upper. I use it for single loading...no problems...and no problems with the aftermarket metal mags except for "ear" problems now and then.

The Lee FCD isn't really a taper crimp die, it just crimps well. I use taper crimp dies where I want a taper crimp, a roll crimp die where I want a roll crimp and NO crimp where I want NO crimping...I use what works for me.

Always lots of roads to use...or not

Good Hunting

Right; I forgot what the OP asked about (lee factory crimp; I know the difference). Doesn't take long to forget stuff from reading to answering.
To answer the OP's question; I haven't.

I was asking about the 458 SOCOM regarding the Lee FCD. I don't plan on buying one - just wondered.

As I understand it, the 450 Bushmaster headspaces on the case mouth, so thus I presume that a roll crimp is a no-no. Maybe any crimp is a no-no. Case length must be critical too.

The 458 SOCOM headspaces on the shoulder.

Just like any straight walled rimless cartridge; you can just taper crimp a bit but anything else might not be a good idea.

So, the 458 SOCOM, not being straight walled, can benefit from a roll crimp, I presume.

My question, re the Lee factory crimp die, was basically has anyone found it necessary?

I found it very useful, if not necessary, when I handloaded heavy the 458 WM. But the 458 SOCOM has far less recoil. If a simple roll crimp will do the job, that's what I want. Why make it more complicated than needed?

Actually the only way to know for certain whether something works or is unnecessary it to TRY IT. There are several ways to get a tight bullet grip that might be sufficient, BUT...I DON'T want bullets at the bottom of the stack getting loose and mucking up the works...that old adage "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" STILL fits. You should be able to learn from previous screw-ups and just DOIT.

You seemed to have forgotten that rearward recoil ISN'T the only force that impacts bullet retention...slamming into the chamber and almost instantaneously stopping is another force acting on the bullet AND powder column and probably the more forceful.

It's YOUR toy(or not in this case), do what you think is right, it's YOUR problem to solve or NOT become a problem in the first place.

I use a Lee FCD for my 450 B...PLUS polished the expander portion to get a tighter grip. All that works for me and if it didn't I was going to polish an M type die plunger make things fit...didn't have to. I would have Lee make me one if it wasn't available or have a taper crimp die made, they are just really cheap insurance.

I ALSO follow the same procedures with my other AR10, 15 platforms in 223, 338 Fed(previously a 308) and 6.5 Creed and any other iterations I might add...just to be sure.

Logic many times DOESN'T work, especially if the logic is faulty or isn't applied correctly in the first place...WE ALL DO IT CONSTANTLY.

Good Hunting

Yes, there are many ways to skin a cat, not that I have ever skinned one, that I can remember anyway.
I use a standard crimp die on my 458s, and so does everyone I know. No issues; no bullet moves, nothing but what should happen. Bang, repeat.
The recoil of a 458 Socom is really not that bad; certainly not in the same league as most real bolt action magnum rounds, so the impulse on the bullet is not enough to warrant anything else, in my experience.
I just report what I do, that works. I rarely report what didn't work.

Thanks guys for the feedback.

When everything is working proper, I'll try to remember to give a short report.

Don't we all....but reporting malfarksions might help now and then. Never skinned a cat!!!!??? Look what your missing. Makes for a different looking cat-skinned cap and people detours.

Good Hunting

quote:

malfarksions

That's a good word to add to my vocabulary. No need for a dictionary to know what it means. Just thinking of the times and circumstances the word could be used - especially with adjectives - vast.

Hahahahahah...just like "Mopery with intent to commit gawk"...FUBAR, OMG, and WTF... ...Ain'nothang, Bro...

Good Hunting

For my 458 socom I use Lancer mags. They are plastic with metal lips and handle the socom round with aplomb. My system for ensuring that I don't confuse magazines is to use metal PRI mags for 6.8, magpuls for 223 and Lancers for the 458.

If you use Hornady dies, my experience is that they don't push the shoulder back far enough, which can lead to feeding problems. Of course my chamber might just be tight. I use Lee dies to size and Hornady to seat. I also crimp with the Lee FCD, I feel more secure with a solid crimp.

I never saw the logic in "HAVING TO USE" a particular piece of reloading gear just because it came in one box...I use what works for me. My object is to produce ACCURATE, FUNCTIONAL ammo. I have two large drawers and one long shelf full of reloading dies...single and multiple pieces...I hit the gun shows and buy dies by the handfuls.

I usually start with "cheap" Lee dies because the sizers usually work great and I can modify them easily or if I ruin one just toss it in the excess box for later use. I have 7-8 different 308 sizers all having different internal measurements and the same with 223...several sets of 308/30-06 size Redding Bushing type dies and micrometer seaters along with Wilson and Forster micrometer seaters not to mention all the other pistol and straight walled rifle "stuff"...I can usually dig around and find some bit to get reloading on while I wait for the "right" die set.

I learned a long time ago that taper crimping works wonders with certain powders in large cal pistol/straight walled rifles, that roll crimping, if not done right with UNIFORMLY TRIMMED LENGTHS will slightly bulge the case at the crimp and allow the bullet to spin just with finger pressure...and a firm crimp makes for uniform powder ignition and uniform, accurate, higher velo loads.

I've learned from long experience HOW to get the most bang from my shooters, what works, and what to do when things go ti-tsup...it ain't rocket science. What and how someone else loads their ammo isn't my concern any more than telling them "whatthehellandwhy".

It's like tuning an vehicle/engine to the Nth degree then filling the tank with year old 10% Ethanol and wondering WTF.

I look at the internet with a jaded eye but learn something new every time I visit ANY forum. Some of the videos are hilarious AND thought provoking and are the reasons for why I'm off to the races with PCP pellet guns. Just wish there were more rat-things to work on.

Good Hunting

Lane, have you shot your Bushmaster yet? If so, please share impressions.
I started out wanting a .450 or a .458, then realized that mild manners and accuracy were more appealing to me than power for my own purposes. Hence the 6.5 Grendel that dpcd has generously agreed to help me with, as I am no AR builder.

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
I never saw the logic in "HAVING TO USE" a particular piece of reloading gear just because it came in one box...I use what works for me. My object is to produce ACCURATE, FUNCTIONAL ammo. I have two large drawers and one long shelf full of reloading dies...single and multiple pieces...I hit the gun shows and buy dies by the handfuls.

I usually start with "cheap" Lee dies because the sizers usually work great and I can modify them easily or if I ruin one just toss it in the excess box for later use. I have 7-8 different 308 sizers all having different internal measurements and the same with 223...several sets of 308/30-06 size Redding Bushing type dies and micrometer seaters along with Wilson and Forster micrometer seaters not to mention all the other pistol and straight walled rifle "stuff"...I can usually dig around and find some bit to get reloading on while I wait for the "right" die set.

I learned a long time ago that taper crimping works wonders with certain powders in large cal pistol/straight walled rifles, that roll crimping, if not done right with UNIFORMLY TRIMMED LENGTHS will slightly bulge the case at the crimp and allow the bullet to spin just with finger pressure...and a firm crimp makes for uniform powder ignition and uniform, accurate, higher velo loads.

I've learned from long experience HOW to get the most bang from my shooters, what works, and what to do when things go ti-tsup...it ain't rocket science. What and how someone else loads their ammo isn't my concern any more than telling them "whatthehellandwhy".

It's like tuning an vehicle/engine to the Nth degree then filling the tank with year old 10% Ethanol and wondering WTF.

I look at the internet with a jaded eye but learn something new every time I visit ANY forum. Some of the videos are hilarious AND thought provoking and are the reasons for why I'm off to the races with PCP pellet guns. Just wish there were more rat-things to work on.

Good Hunting

Agreed, my socom loading procedure is:
1. Any semi auto brass that's picked up in the dirt is De-primed and tumbled to clean the inevitable dirt.
2. The brass is lubed and run through the Lee size die sans expander button to set the shoulder.
3. Brass goes through the Hornady sizing die because I prefer the neck tension.
4. Tumbled again to clean lube.
5. After priming and filled with appropriate powder charge, bullet seated with the Hornady seating die.
6. Lee FCD to crimp the round.
7. Load magazine and hunt for hogs.

Sounds like a good way and if it works for you then great. Looks similar to what I've done for umpteen years with a few alterations and additions.

I'VE ALWAYS been an experimenter...asking the odd question and building the odd rifle caliber...status quo, while working for some folks, means squat doodly to me if I can't extract something interesting and useful from it. 70 odd years in this game doesn't make me any kind of "expert" but it DOES give me a very wide data base to work with.

If that samo-samo works for some, then Great, have at it, but I pretty much always push the envelope in some way asking those questions that NO ONE wants to answer or can't. Seems to rub some the wrong way...I'm not whizzing on their boots so to speak, just wondering about all the neat "Why's" and asking for THEIR OPINIONS or if something else might work also.

One thing that I think many reloaders don't know or have forgotten is that reloading dies, rifle chambers, reamers, vehicle engines, bullet sizes and weights, milk jugs and coffee cups ALL have TOLERANCES and manufacturers have to fit their products within those tolerances...FOR THE MOST PART...doesn't always happen the way the books say.

BRANDS don't always get it right. I have sizing dies that almost perfectly fit whatever chamber I happen to be reloading for...I note the specific information in my reloading notes and use those particulars to make ammo...and others that are too tight or too loose. I use 308 as an object lesson because I have more dies in that cal than any other except for 223 and I have/have had more rifles in that cal than any other except maybe .284 cal.

Sometimes it's a simple mater of polishing the sizer a bit to open it up a thousandth or so to get that "perfect" fit and other times it's just swapping for an other sizer die...same brand or different. I polish expander buttons to fit and use bushing type depending....mix and match seaters, use Competition shell holders or sometime milling off the face a bit to adjust shoulder length...basically whatever it takes to get the job done...FIT THE AMMO TO THE CHAMBER....good for some folks worthless for others and a sure dust-up talking about it...Want more???...there's a whole 'nother story on how to set up your reloading press for optimum use and that story will get you into all kinds of dust-ups...been there, won't go back.

This work is for rifles that are accurate enough to benefit...I have a few that would require a complete overhaul and basically be a complete different rifle with maybe only the front sight or sling left from the original "thing".

Sounds complicated but really isn't and NOT needed it you just require 2" accuracy at 50 ft...nor does it take a lot of time and is usually only needed once.

There is tons of words written about reloading. EVERYTHING required to produce bughole ammo and bughole shooting rifle(if YOU can do your part) has been written time and time again, WE ALL JUST NEED TO FOLLOW ALONG.



I haven't really started boring down working out the smallest groups possible with my Bushmaster yet...just worked up a few bullet weights and powders looking for uniformity...1 to 1 1/2"/100 M groups with some opening up and some closing down. Seating depth is somewhat constrained and I haven't started weight sorting bullets and ojives yet. I know that is needed as fliers have occurred.

I'm using Hornady "Black Box" ammo for velo/accuracy/functionality comparison and bullets from 200-300 gr, 0.451 and 0.452" OD..Sometime later on I have 300-400 gr jacketed 0.458" I might resize and try, but 275 gr seems to be the optimum for velo/energy/recoil/etc in this size case. If I had a bolt gun I would try some cast, but NOT in my AR.

Producing super accurate ammo is all about doing the "fancy" work....but however you do it, if it works for you then "GET'ER'DONE" AND BE HAPPY.

Good Hunting

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
I started out wanting a .450 or a .458, then realized that mild manners and accuracy were more appealing to me than power for my own purposes. Hence the 6.5 Grendel that dpcd has generously agreed to help me with, as I am no AR builder.

I've been shooting the 6.5 Grendel is the AR15 for several years. It's my favorite. I also had a Ruger 77MKII stainless action barreled in 6.5 Grendel. It was initially a 6mm PPC. I don't know which I like better - the AR15 or the Ruger. The cartridge is excellent for deer and hogs. I've been using the Hornady ammo exclusively since they started making it.

I hope you don't mind - I have a thread in Reloading on the 458 SOCOM, so I'm moving your quote over there to liven up the discussion, hopefully.

We've sorta hijacked this 450 thread.

quote:

Originally posted by hogfarmer:

my socom loading procedure is:

1. Any semi auto brass that's picked up in the dirt is De-primed and tumbled to clean the inevitable dirt.
2. The brass is lubed and run through the Lee size die sans expander button to set the shoulder.
3. Brass goes through the Hornady sizing die because I prefer the neck tension.
4. Tumbled again to clean lube.
5. After priming and filled with appropriate powder charge, bullet seated with the Hornady seating die.
6. Lee FCD to crimp the round.
7. Load magazine and hunt for hogs.