I know so little about this AR stuff, but I have studied it enough to know that I want to start with a 6.5 Grendel -

What's the + or - of a reciever like this? Thanks KB

http://www.alexanderarms.com/s...r.htm?cat=15&item=80

So much stuff, where to start. First off ANYTHING you order from AA will take at least a year to get. Right now ammo, components, reloading dies for the 6.5 Grendel are just about non existent. The ammo from Wolf isn't very good...thin cases, loose primer pockets after one firing, the alloy they use in the bullet really copper fouls the bore bad. The 6.5 Grendel is a proprietary cartridge and because of this it's acceptance has been greatly hindered. Thus the reason no major ammo makers making it. Get yourself an AR15 in 5.56. Personally I don't see need for a side cocking handle on an AR15 and I think the slot weakens an already flimsy thin upper receiver. I know lot's of people dumping their 6.5 Grendels because of the ammo/component shortages. The Lapua brass is very expensive too. You can form out of 7.62x39.

Hate to sound so negative, but that's the way it is.

If you're wanting more then 5.56 power look at what DPMS has to offer in 6.5 calibers and don't overlook the new Remington 30 RAR AR15.

The whole concept of AR as a sport and hunting rifle is daunting to me, but intriguing. There what seems to me overwhelming choice of options. I too have a problem with slinging expensive brass in the bushes.

So it comes down to narrowing the choices based on what I'm going to use it for. First I think the 223 is useless as a hunting round, and it should be a crime as such use. I think it has to be the best deer wounding cartridge ever invented. For me a step up in ft lbs is needed. Something with more zap than the 7.62x39.

In the AR 15 platform, the Grendel is within my threshold as minimum. I don't like the 6.8, and don't want one.

Stepping up to the 308 or some of its derivitives may be what I need to do - keep it simple, but the weight of the rifle turns me off. But that would certainly solve the energy issue. Some of the lightweight DPMS offerings may work.

The 30 RAR looks interesting. Like a sooped up 7.62x39. Maybe we'll finally have 30-30 performance in a simi-auto. Really though it looks interesting. For a hunting rifle, not needing large cap magazines, the single stack is OK. The 125 gr bullet is just not OK, but fortunately the 10" twist can handle heavier bullets if handloaded. 150 gr TSX at 2500 + fps gets me very interested.

I read somewhere that a 6.5 RAR is already being tested.

KB

The Remington 30 RAR is more then a souped up 7.62x39. In the factory test barrel it throws a 125 grain bullet at 2800 fps. That's way out of the 39's league.

when getting any auto i usually try to pick a round that has either cheap brass or something that i can make out of cheap brass. for instance my one in 260 i can just run 308 brass through the die, my 6x45 is just 223 necked up. etc. i tried loading 7.62x39, but now that brass is expensive to find in boxer, so out comes the berdan stuff. even on a range where you can pick up brass easily, you're still going to loose a bunch, and its hard to shoot decent when one eye is trying to see where the brass is falling

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
when getting any auto i usually try to pick a round that has either cheap brass or something that i can make out of cheap brass. for instance my one in 260 i can just run 308 brass through the die, my 6x45 is just 223 necked up. etc. i tried loading 7.62x39, but now that brass is expensive to find in boxer, so out comes the berdan stuff. even on a range where you can pick up brass easily, you're still going to loose a bunch, and its hard to shoot decent when one eye is trying to see where the brass is falling

It's good to know someone else keeps an eye on where those empties go. Long ago I bought a brass catcher for my AR from a fellow in Colorado that made them from Lexan. It works really well, isn't all big and clumsy, and doesn't cause any jams.

Most the 7.62x39 you find at the range now is steel and berdan primed. I bought a ton of PMC 7.62x39 when they folded their outlet in Nevada. Damn good brass.

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:
The Remington 30 RAR is more then a souped up 7.62x39. In the factory test barrel it throws a 125 grain bullet at 2800 fps. That's way out of the 39's league.

7.62x39 - 123gr bullet 2300 fps
30 RAR - 125gr bullet 2800 fps

+ 500 fps with practically the same bullet, (SD .188, BC .279) doesn't make a different league, just a faster whiffel ball to explode in the faster. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...uctNumber=1601586307

Take a 150 gr .308 bullet, even a little slower, (2600 fps) and then you have something in a different league. (SD .226, BC .338)

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=235800

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:
The Remington 30 RAR is more then a souped up 7.62x39. In the factory test barrel it throws a 125 grain bullet at 2800 fps. That's way out of the 39's league.

7.62x39 - 123gr bullet 2300 fps
30 RAR - 125gr bullet 2800 fps

+ 500 fps with practically the same bullet, (SD .188, BC .279) doesn't make a different league, just a faster whiffel ball to explode in the faster. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...uctNumber=1601586307

Take a 150 gr .308 bullet, even a little slower, (2600 fps) and then you have something in a different league. (SD .226, BC .338)

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=235800

KB

I disagree with you, 500 fps is significant. I don't know anyone who has tried the 150 grain bullets yet, but who knows, it may get that 2600 fps out of a longer barrel AR.

Well OK, I'll partially agree with you.

I just don't like light-for-caliber bullets on deer and hogs, and speed has little to do with it.

The extra 500 fps does indicate something very significant though, and that's powder capacity. The case has enough capacity to drive 150-165 gr bullets fast enough to do the job in an AR 15 platform. I think it's terrible that Remington chose to wow us with speed rather than load heavier bullets. Lots of people are succeptable to the speed thing I suppose.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Well OK, I'll partially agree with you.

I just don't like light-for-caliber bullets on deer and hogs, and speed has little to do with it.

The extra 500 fps does indicate something very significant though, and that's powder capacity. The case has enough capacity to drive 150-165 gr bullets fast enough to do the job in an AR 15 platform. I think it's terrible that Remington chose to wow us with speed rather than load heavier bullets. Lots of people are succeptable to the speed thing I suppose.

KB

I kind of look at calibers that shoot in general that same weight bullet, liket the 25-05, various 6.5's, and the 270.....and they do excellent for deer hunting and that is an accepted bullet weight for them. I see a 125 gr 30 caliber bullet making a larger hole to begin with. With bullet technology today the lighter bullet weights work. Speaking of that one of the gun writers that was against the use of the 223 for deer hunting has now changed his mine. He did an extensive test, including harvesting deer, with the new heavier premium bullets and they worked very well. The 243 is generally accepted for use on deer and it's bullet diameter is only .021 larger then the 223's bullet. I do agree before the advent of the 80 and 90 gr premium bullets that the 223 was too light for 100 % result deer hunting.

If you want to talk about a heavy knock down bullet for an AR have you though any about the 50 Beowulf, the 458 SACOM, and 450 Bushmaster? The 50 Beowulf is awesome.

Technology can't improve upon low SD and BC. Still the same today as it was last year, last time I checked.

Gun Writers -- K.M.A. I don't need no mo stinkin testing - I've seen what .223 does to deer watching others use them, and watching the deer run off. Buzzards, coyotes and worms gotta eat too, I suppose, but I would rather take the deer home with me.

Bullet diameter of .021 makes a significant difference in the small stuff. There's a heck of a difference between 90 - 100 gr .243 bullets and 55-65 gr .223 bullets. One being that the 243 is designed to not explode, where the .223 explodes by design because it's a VARMIT bullet.

What twist does it take to stab a 80 - 09 gr .223 bullet - 1 in 5" twist? How many yahoos actually use such heavy bullets. Are there any factory loads?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Technology can't improve upon low SD and BC. Still the same today as it was last year, last time I checked.

Gun Writers -- K.M.A. I don't need no mo stinkin testing - I've seen what .223 does to deer watching others use them, and watching the deer run off. Buzzards, coyotes and worms gotta eat too, I suppose, but I would rather take the deer home with me.

Bullet diameter of .021 makes a significant difference in the small stuff. There's a heck of a difference between 90 - 100 gr .243 bullets and 55-65 gr .223 bullets. One being that the 243 is designed to not explode, where the .223 explodes by design because it's a VARMIT bullet.

What twist does it take to stab a 80 - 09 gr .223 bullet - 1 in 5" twist? How many yahoos actually use such heavy bullets. Are there any factory loads?

KB

I agree with you some. You mentioned the 55-65 .224 bullets. Those are still light. I'm talking the new 70-80-90 bullets. Some of these are all copper too. The 243 will lose lots of deer if you use the lighter bullets like say in the 80 grain range. For deer I wouldn't use anything lighter then 90 and prefer 100 or over. When I had my 243 Sako I used the Hornady 100 gr round nose with excellent results. This was in close range woods hunting. I would have chosen a spitzer for longer ranges. Today they say the pointed bullets expand the same or better then the round noses.

I know alot of people that use the 30-06 with 130 gr bullets and love it. My preference for the 06 is a 165 grain. I also have friends that won't use anything in it except the 180 gr, which I feel is little on the heavy side.

No comment on the big bore AR's????

Joe

quote:

No comment on the big bore AR's????

Joe

Oh yes. Great subject for discussion. I would really like to try the big bore in the AR. Up to 100 - 125 yards, that would be big fun on hogs, and deer too.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

No comment on the big bore AR's????

Joe

Oh yes. Great subject for discussion. I would really like to try the big bore in the AR. Up to 100 - 125 yards, that would be big fun on hogs, and deer too.

KB

You should get a 50 Beowulf, but I'd get it from CSS because you'll be a great barrel and get it faster and cheaper then from AA.

Getting back to your question, I don't think you need an upper like that unless you are shooting 600 and 1,000 yd NRA matches. Even then I question it's utility.

Personally I'd just buy a standard forged upper for about $75.

And I would consider a 6.8 SPC as well. You can load bullets long for single feed in the SPC and probably get better ballistics than the Grendel. The SPC has more powder capacity.

The only advantage of the Grendel is loading 120gr bullets at mag length. 120s don't intrude on the powder capacity in the Grendel when loaded mag length. They do intrude in mag length SPC loads. If you loaded the Grendel and the SPC with 140s at a single feed length, the SPC would win.

quote:

Originally posted by BECoole:
Getting back to your question, I don't think you need an upper like that unless you are shooting 600 and 1,000 yd NRA matches. Even then I question it's utility.

Personally I'd just buy a standard forged upper for about $75.

And I would consider a 6.8 SPC as well. You can load bullets long for single feed in the SPC and probably get better ballistics than the Grendel. The SPC has more powder capacity.

The only advantage of the Grendel is loading 120gr bullets at mag length. 120s don't intrude on the powder capacity in the Grendel when loaded mag length. They do intrude in mag length SPC loads. If you loaded the Grendel and the SPC with 140s at a single feed length, the SPC would win.

Negative, no light short 30 caliber bullet is going to be the 123 high BC bullets in the 6.5 Grendel. It will equal it to say 300-400 yards then the 6.5 bullet cleans it's slate.

Buy a regular forged upper and if you want the flatter shooting higher retained energy bullet get the 6.5 Grendel.

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

Negative, no light short 30 caliber bullet is going to be the 123 high BC bullets in the 6.5 Grendel. It will equal it to say 300-400 yards then the 6.5 bullet cleans it's slate.

The 6.8 SPC is .270 cal, not .30 cal.

quote:

Originally posted by BECoole:

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

Negative, no light short 30 caliber bullet is going to be the 123 high BC bullets in the 6.5 Grendel. It will equal it to say 300-400 yards then the 6.5 bullet cleans it's slate.

The 6.8 SPC is .270 cal, not .30 cal.

I'm sorry, that's what I meant, thanks for correctly me.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Technology can't improve upon low SD and BC. Still the same today as it was last year, last time I checked.

Gun Writers -- K.M.A. I don't need no mo stinkin testing - I've seen what .223 does to deer watching others use them, and watching the deer run off. Buzzards, coyotes and worms gotta eat too, I suppose, but I would rather take the deer home with me.

Bullet diameter of .021 makes a significant difference in the small stuff. There's a heck of a difference between 90 - 100 gr .243 bullets and 55-65 gr .223 bullets. One being that the 243 is designed to not explode, where the .223 explodes by design because it's a VARMIT bullet.



KB

With logic like that , where did you go to college ?????????????
A TSX bullet is a TSX bullet .....Their penetration is amazeing and they expand reliably ......What you have probably seen are people useing the wrong bullet .and not shooting very well .......@ 223 with a TSX will kill a deer just as well as a 30/30 will ,but it will do it as well @ 200 yards also ....It isn,t a varmint bullet ...... A 1 in 9 " twist will stabilize a 70 gr bullet ..A 62 gr TSX .works great .....It makes the 223 a vaible wolf round ....Phil Shoemaker had a very good AR article in a recent Rifle magizine ...

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:

.....What you have probably seen are people useing the wrong bullet .and not shooting very well ....Phil Shoemaker had a very good AR article in a recent Rifle magizine ...

Right, I've seen them use the wrong bullet, but they shot very well. Wrong bullet is inevitable in my experience with 223 shooters. Eventually they can't seem to help themselves, or they would be using the right caliber to start with.

So now you are somehow agreeing with shoemaker?

Humm

No doubt the 70 gr TSX makes a significant difference in making such an inadequate cartridge barely acceptable for the task.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:

.....What you have probably seen are people useing the wrong bullet .and not shooting very well ....Phil Shoemaker had a very good AR article in a recent Rifle magizine ...

Right, I've seen them use the wrong bullet, but they shot very well. Wrong bullet is inevitable in my experience with 223 shooters. Eventually they can't seem to help themselves, or they would be using the right caliber to start with.

So now you are somehow agreeing with shoemaker?

Humm

No doubt the 70 gr TSX makes a significant difference in making such an inadequate cartridge barely acceptable for the task.

KB

It's so inadequate for killing deer size animals that the military just can't seem to pull themselves away from it going on nearly 40 years. Before you say it wounded a lot of soldiers I can you I've see a VC shot in the side of the face right at the jaw joint with a 308 and live to complain about it. The fact is lot of capable cartridges can still screw up. Like the other fellow said the TSX's are a whole different ball game. With rifle manufacturers now making more 22 centerfires with fast twist, like the 22-250...it will make it a dual purpose caliber...varmint and deer. Again like the poster said the 223 and particularly the 22-250 shoot further and flatter then the 30-30 and with the new bullets...get the job done.

OK - OK, but I like arguing with Gumboot, so it's hard to resist.

KB

Just to muddy the water even more you can also get the AR platform in 6ppc. Not as powerful as a 243 but at ranges under 200yards you'll do okay. By the way you can spend a day just looking at all the calibers that the AR is now being fitted for. .260,6br,etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
OK - OK, but I like arguing with Gumboot, so it's hard to resist.

KB

.. Would it be so hard just to buy a rifle and go shoot the snot out of it .........Must you always waste soooooooooo much time ,effort and money trying to re invent the wheel ... Just get about any AR 15 in 223 with a 9" twist . load 300 or so 62 gr TSX bullets for it and go shoot the thing so you get good with it ............ You must like typing alot more than shooting ....

I have some actual hunting experience with some of these cartridges.

I have killed 2 deer with a 223. One with a Samson [Israeli IMI] 62gr SP, and one with a reload with a Hornady 60gr HP. The Hornady HP is stated by them to be a tougher bullet that their 60gr SP.

Both deer dropped to the shot, they were hit behind the shoulder. Both shots were in the 70 to 100 yard range.

I have killed 2 deer with a 7.62x39. Both were with Hanson 123 gr SP. Both shots were at about 85 yards. One was a side chest shot, behind the shoulder, the other was facing me at a slight angle. Both deer ran @ 30 yards.

I have killed 2 deer and a wild pig, and my nephew has killled one pig and 3 deer, and a turkey with Remingtons Managed Recoil 308 load with a 125gr bullet. The velocity of this load is listed at 2660fps.

This load has worked extremely well. I have only recovered one bullet fired into a deer running away after my nehew had made a low hit in the chest. That bullet struck the rear ham and ended up in the lung. It expanded great and held together well. Remington states that this is a good deer killing load out to 200 yards.

All of our shots have been under 100 yards, most of them under 50, with several under 25 yards.

N E 450, That's certainly good practical experience.

Gumboot, I'm not the only one who wastes time re-inventing the wheel. Somebody spent a lot of time doing the 6.8 SPC, and the Grendel. Now the folks at Remington are wasting time making the .30 RAR, and researching the same case in 6.5mm, perhaps others. Somebody has to dream this s--t up.

I remember all those wildcat dreams too, on WSM, RUM, SRUM cases.

The reason I don't just go out and buy an AR in 223 is the same reason you don't just go out and buy a 30-06 for bear hunting.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
N E 450, That's certainly good practical experience.

Gumboot, I'm not the only one who wastes time re-inventing the wheel. Somebody spent a lot of time doing the 6.8 SPC, and the Grendel. Now the folks at Remington are wasting time making the .30 RAR, and researching the same case in 6.5mm, perhaps others. Somebody has to dream this s--t up.

I remember all those wildcat dreams too, on WSM, RUM, SRUM cases.

The reason I don't just go out and buy an AR in 223 is the same reason you don't just go out and buy a 30-06 for bear hunting.

KB

Hahahahahaha...you tear me up, really you do.
First you don't understand the significance of Remington's 30 RAR. It's not so much the cartridge, but the rifle. It's not just an ordinary AR 15. You see the AR 15's one weakness is that it can't operate, without getting torn up or coming apart, above the pressure range set for it with the 5.56, which is "about" 55k. You noticed Colt dropped the 7.62x39 from their line-up long ago. Part the reason was probably sales, but the other was that round has more bolt thrust then the 5.56 and bolt lugs were breaking. Same scenario with the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel. So what's different about the 30 RAR? It has an AR 10 size bolt head, AR 10 size barrel extension, and a beefed up upper receiver. You say it's an AR 10 rifle then. No, it is not, it is an AR 15. Everything else on it is AR 15, thus it's lighter then an AR 10. With the improvements it opens up a lot of possibilities for some higher bolt thrust cartridges on the AR 15 platform.

I wouldn't exactly say the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel are reinventing the wheel. Why do you make such a statement? What do you say about the 50 Beowulf, 458 SOCOM, and 450 Bushmaster then?

By the way I know a fellow that killed an elk with a 6.5 Grendel at quite some distance over 400 yards and my friend did nearly the same with a 6.5 SPC.

Joe

Fellas, I do not want to get caught up in y'alls Hatfield and McCoy Fued, so this info is offered in a neutral manner.

If I was going to get an AR15 in a calibre above 223, I would want it in a calibre that I could get store bought ammo and factory brass.

A fella could have a lower with a good trigger, and an upper in 223 for varmints, the 30 AR for deer/pigs, and a 450 Bushmaster for deer,pigs and blackbear over bait.

I do not have any experience with cartridges over 223 in an AR, but I think the 30AR could be loaded with 150gr bullets at @30/30 Performance levels. The 150gr bullets might be better for raking shots, however the 125 Remington bullets in the 308 Managed Recoil loads have impressed me.

Actually for serious hunting with an AR "type" rifle I would get a JP in 308. The one I shot was nearly a oneholer and it was much lighter than the Armalite and Knights "AR's" that I have shot.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Fellas, I do not want to get caught up in y'alls Hatfield and McCoy Fued, so this info is offered in a neutral manner.

If I was going to get an AR15 in a calibre above 223, I would want it in a calibre that I could get store bought ammo and factory brass.

A fella could have a lower with a good trigger, and an upper in 223 for varmints, the 30 AR for deer/pigs, and a 450 Bushmaster for deer,pigs and blackbear over bait.

I do not have any experience with cartridges over 223 in an AR, but I think the 30AR could be loaded with 150gr bullets at @30/30 Performance levels. The 150gr bullets might be better for raking shots, however the 125 Remington bullets in the 308 Managed Recoil loads have impressed me.

Actually for serious hunting with an AR "type" rifle I would get a JP in 308. The one I shot was nearly a oneholer and it was much lighter than the Armalite and Knights "AR's" that I have shot.

Naw, dis har a friendly discussion. You have good logic, except I'd take a 50 Beowulf or 458 SOCOM for bear over the 450 Bushmaster, although the 450 would do the job done. I reload most all my ammo and don't worry about factory ammo, but you make a very good point.

One more point do you know the 6.5 Grendel beats the 6.5x54 Mannlicher Schoenaur when comparing it to factory loadings? We all know what the Mannlicher has done in the game field. Guess I'm saying the Grendel is plenty good for deer hunting. Once again referring to friends that have the 6.5 Grendel they've taken deer, elk, boar, and bear with it....without any problems what so ever. So I think a lighter 6.5 Grendel will beat the JP 308 in portability.

Joe

[QUOTE]Originally posted by starmetal:
First you don't understand the significance of Remington's 30 RAR. It's not so much the cartridge, but the rifle. It's not just an ordinary AR 15. You see the AR 15's one weakness is that it can't operate, without getting torn up or coming apart, above the pressure range set for it with the 5.56, which is "about" 55k. You noticed Colt dropped the 7.62x39 from their line-up long ago. Part the reason was probably sales, but the other was that round has more bolt thrust then the 5.56 and bolt lugs were breaking. Same scenario with the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel. So what's different about the 30 RAR? It has an AR 10 size bolt head, AR 10 size barrel extension, and a beefed up upper receiver. You say it's an AR 10 rifle then. No, it is not, it is an AR 15. Everything else on it is AR 15, thus it's lighter then an AR 10. With the improvements it opens up a lot of possibilities for some higher bolt thrust cartridges on the AR 15 platform.

We learn something new everyday - hopefully.

I wouldn't exactly say the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel are reinventing the wheel. Why do you make such a statement?

Messing with Gumboot.


What do you say about the 50 Beowulf, 458 SOCOM, and 450 Bushmaster then?

Yippy-ky-ya.

I think I would try the 458 Socom because it has a shoulder. I'm just not familier with messing with a cartridge that headspaces on the mouth of the case. And I like the true .458 bullets.

By the way I know a fellow that killed an elk with a 6.5 Grendel at quite some distance over 400 yards and my friend did nearly the same with a 6.5 SPC.

I have in process a bolt action mini mauser in 6.5 Grendel, which I started long before getting on the AR kick. I'm looking forward to trying it out.

I believe they were the Remington Model 6 and Model 8 . in 25 ,30 and 35 Remington calibers .... A semi auto 30/30 . .. Done before most of us were a gleam in Daddy's eye ......

What ever they call this new 5 shot AR in 30 caliber... It is re inventing the wheel ..... Besides the 223 with a 62 gr TSX @ 3000 fps kills at least as good as the 30/30 .But does it further away ....

Designing a cartridge with performance to fit a modern AR platform is not reinventing the wheel.

I don't like to always rely on ft lbs energy as the basis for conclusion, since bullet diameter has relevance, but I did notice that the 6.5 Grendel equals or exceeds the 30-30 ft lbs at the muzzel and all ranges. It's a good enough comparison for me.

.223 070 gr TS BC=.314 2900fps 0 yds=1307 fp 100yds=1057 fp
.264 120 gr TS BC=.441 2600fps 0 yds=1801 fp 100 yds=1539 fp
.308 150 gr SP BC=.338 2600fps 0 yds=2251 fp 100 yds=1832 fp
.308 150 gr RN BC=.200 2300fps 0 yds=1762 fp 100 yds=1211 fp
.458 400 gr RN BC=.214 1200fps 0 yds=1279 fp 100 yds=975 fp

KB

6.5's are efficient bullets and most the cartridges that shoot them are very good ones. Why the militaries didn't stay with the 6.5's is beyond me.

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:
6.5's are efficient bullets and most the cartridges that shoot them are very good ones. Why the militaries didn't stay with the 6.5's is beyond me.

Either that, or what if NATO had adopted the 280 British?