This has been hashed over many times, but if anyone can stand to discuss it again here goes. I want to spend $900- 1000 on an ar15. There are so many choices out there these days that it makes a rookies head spin trying to pick one. I want a 6 position stock, flat top, good shooter, mostly plinking and coyote shooting. Any better brands than others in that price range, crap to be avoided, etc. The local guy sells Bushmasters, seems to have decent prices. I've heard good things about RRA, any input would be appreciated.

RRAs get good press. I've got one that I haven't shot yet - the best thing is the trigger; excellent. I also have a Remington R-15 (which is for sale by the way) that is a nice rifle. It's comparatively lightweight and handles nice in the field. It was my coyote rifle before I got a custom built AR with all the gadgets that I now use. From my relatively limited exposure to the platform, it seems pretty hard to get a bad one if you stick with an established manufacturer of good reputation. It ends up coming down to the one with the features you like.

I have to agree with DeserRam, Trigger and chamber options give RRA the edge right now. If you want to go with an exotic caliber DPMS has the most choices.

Thanks for the responce. I think I will go with 223 for now, although the 204 is pretty cool. Ammo supplies is a big factor. Should I go with a 16" or 20" barrel for my mentioned uses? Do you guys mosty go with the flattop or carry handle style?

I'd agree with the RRA for a good AR. I have a 16" and a 20" but prefer the 20". The 16" barrel is noticably louder. Go with a flat top and mount a scope or sights.

Everytime I put one to my shoulder with a carry handle and fixed stock I get flashbacks of screaming drill sergeants.

quote:

Originally posted by Lapidary:
I'd agree with the RRA for a good AR. I have a 16" and a 20" but prefer the 20". The 16" barrel is noticably louder. Go with a flat top and mount a scope or sights.

Everytime I put one to my shoulder with a carry handle and fixed stock I get flashbacks of screaming drill sergeants.

+1 on the flat top. You can always put an aftermarket handle on it, but not the other way around.

STAG...made by one of the oldest AR manufacturers CMT...Continental Machine & Tool. Made most the Colt stuff in the early days. There are no flys on a Bushmaster either. You can always buy the RRA trigger and put it in any other AR. I done that with my STAGS.

Any thoughts on stainless vs standard barrel; accuracy, life, etc?

RRA has captured a good portion of the competitive shooting market with their AR's. They know how to assemble them for accuracy and their receivers fit together better than anyone's I have seen. They use Wilson barrels which are good barrels with proper break in. I always use stainless AR barrels for best accuracy. There is a Gunsmith in the Palmer/Wasilla that will order them in at reasonable prices. PM me if you want his contact info.

First, take a look at this:

AR Comparison Chart

Then increase your budget a bit and buy a Daniel Defense.

Not everyone that sells an AR 15 make the parts. There are only a few manufacturers of lower and upper receivers. I believe RRA uses STAG (CMT) receivers. It's like this with a lot of them.

TaxPhd, thanks for the chart.
That's the best AR comparison I've seen to date.

You're welcome.

It is really good information, and helps to sort through the misinformation that is rampant on the internet.

Why is Stag considered a good quality "mid tier" AR15?

Stag offers a lifetime warranty. Many of the mid tier AR15 manufactures only offer a one year warranty.

Forged uppers & lowers - Mark Mulkowski, owner of Stag Arms is lucky enough to have a father named Ted Mulkowski, the founder of Centennial Machine & Tool (CMT). CMT has been suppling AR15 parts to almost everybody since the Vietnam war. Its safe to say Stag is the retail face of CMT.

The gas piston system - Stag uses a very robust gas block and in-line tube. It has picatinny rails built in, top and bottom. All the internal surfaces are chrome lined. Most importantly, Stag "double taper pins" vs straight taper pins the gas block in place. This is probably the strongest option to affix a gas block to a barrel? (other than welding of course lol)

Chrome Chamber and Bore - All Stag barrels and chabers are hard chrome plated. The purpose for HC plating is simply corrosion prevention, a chrome lined barrel is very easy to maintain, easy to clean and is very resistant to rust and corrosion. The byproduct of HC plating is that it gives the bore a very hard surface and doubles barrel life.

5.56 vs .223 Chamber - Stag rifles are chambered in 5.56mm. .223 and 5.56 are not the same thing. 5.56 is often loaded to a higher pressure, There are other dimensional differences pertaining to throat, bullet seat, etc. but what it comes down to in practical terms is that you can shoot .223 in a 5.56 chamber but the reverse is not recommended. If you want to shoot both, just go with a barrel stamped 5.56.

The bolt carrier is one solid piece of 8620 stainless steel with a chrome lined interior and a manganese phosphate finish - The piston shoulder is machined as one solid piece with the carrier for maximum strength. The rear of the carrier is built with “pads” to prevent carrier tilt.

Spring loaded bolt - The Stag bolt is spring loaded which stabilizes the bolt in the carrier and slows the bolt slightly as it comes out of battery – another means of decreasing wear on the parts.

Broach cut magwell – Stag broach cuts all of its lowers magwells. Broach cutting machines leave squared corners in the mil-spec magwell. Non mil-spec AR’s that mill out the mag well will have rounded internal corners.

Parkerize under FSB - Stag parkerizes under the front sight base/gas block. Very few makers do this. Most prefer to attach the base to an uncoated barrel and then parkerize the assembly as a whole.

Mil-Spec diameter buffer tube/receiver extension - Stag features a mil-spec diameter buffer tube. Most folks just prefer mil-spec diameter even though commercial diameter buffer tubes don’t hold back parts availability or performance.



Here is what keeps Stag a mid tier AR…


Stag conducts HPT & MPI inspections and tests in “batches” - This keeps the price lower for the consumer since “Individual” HPT & MPI testing is extremely expensive. To offset the method of batch testing, Stag backs up their rifles with a lifetime warranty.

1:9 twist - Stag barrels utilize a 1:9 twist. (for every 9 inches there will be 1 full twist) A good rule of thumb is that 1:9 will stabilize bullets in the 45 to 62 grain range, and 1:7 will stabilize bullets in the 55 to 77+ grain range.

1:7 twist was developed to stabilize the military standard 5.56 ball, M855 62 grain green tip with steel penetrator and lead core bullet.

Since the average citizen uses the more affordable, commercial grade 55 grain ammo, a 1:9 twist is fine for the majority of shooters. 1:7 twist is superior and more desirable due to its versatility but by no means absolutely needed for close quarters/home defense use.

I also think there must be a HUGE surplus of 1:9 barrels in stockplies since the advent of 1:7 barrels? Stag is CMT so I wouldnt be surprised if CMT still has thousands of 1:9 barrels on hand? Just a hunch.

4140 Steel barrels - Stag uses 4140 chrom-moly steel for its barrels.

Chrome-Moly - is Chromium, Molybdenum & steel. This name is used to describe a broad family of steels, the most common in use for the AR are 4140 and 4150.

Mil-Spec barrels are made of 4150 Chrom-moly Vanadium steel.

Stag uses 4140 chrom-moly based on saveral reasons.

1. Stag rifles are not military issue. They are civilian rifles. Their rifles are semi-auto fired and basically never get pushed to over heating by the average citizen.

2. Mil-Spec 4150 chrome-moly vanadium steel has 50% steel alloyed into the barrel because the 10% addition of steel and vanadium is reported to perform better under high heat which is more common with sustained fire fights in combat...

Mil-Spec 4150 CMV is expensive, harder to work with and is harder on machining equipment. To stay effective yet affordable Stag uses 4140 steel since most civilians arent taking their rifles to Iraq.

If Stag used the mil-spec CMV steel it would have to raise the price obviously. Do you need a mil-spec CMV 4150 steel barrel? That depends? Are a going to take your rifle to Iraq? Realistically no one with a semi auto AR will destroy a 4140 barrel. Do I want a mil-spec CMV 4150 steel barrel? Yes but its not a deal breaker for me.

Bolt - Stag rifles do not utilize a mil-spec shot peened bolt. - Shot peening steel relieves the metal of machining stress and essentially makes the steel stronger. This method is used on mil-spec combat rifles due to the obvious heavy and hard select fire use in combat.

Millions of civilian rifles do not have mil-spec shot peened bolts because they are not absolutely needed for civilian use in semi auto fire. If they utilized mil-spec shot peened bolt then Stag would have to ask a for a higher price point obviously.

Keep in mind a mil-spec bolt can easily be swapped in by the user for roughly $70 to $100.

Stag utilizes standard “rifle” feed ramps. Not M4 feed ramps. M4 feed ramps were developed for the military’s select fire M4. The M4 design resulted in a BCG with an extremely high cyclic rate. So fast that the magazines had issues with feeding. Engineers introduced longer feed ramps that carried into the lower receiver and the M4 feed ramps were born.

Does a semi-auto AR15 absolutely need M4 feed ramps? No. But they are nice to have regardless since it is mil-spec and all the top tier AR makers feature them.



To make a Stag rifle a top tier AR they would have to…

1. Individually HPT & MPI test and inspect, mil-spec shot peened bolts.
2. Utilize a mil-spec 4150 chrom-moly Vanadium steel barrel with a 1:7 twist rifling that has been HPT & MPI tested and inspected.
3. Feature M4 feed ramps.

While these are all desirable features, they do drive the cost up and realistically you do not absolutely need to have these features to have an effective range gun or home defense gun.

The military, police and operator type customer will often pass on mid tier AR’s because they require a hard use combat rifle…but the average citizen on a budget who still wants a decent quality AR will often times be more than satisfied and well served by a Stag Arms AR15.

Many budget minded police department have already adopted the Stag Arms AR15 because of its quality and price point.

Keep in mind, a budget minded shooter can always buy a mil-spec 1:7 twist 4150 CMV steel barrel and a mil-spec shot peened bolt later on down the road.

I do wish I could get the model 8 in a mid length configuration though? Carbines are pretty small if you have longer arms.

I've picked up a few stags from Bill on Van Horne (pro tec ,good guy), Around 900 bucks. He has some nice scopes too you can check out and every blk rifle you can think of.

Last one I bought was a stag 6.8 and he got me an acog in quick for it. Under 2 gran for everything. We live in Eagle on the Upper Yukon and I killed a caribou with it few months back and it was pretty far off, over 600 yards. The ghost ring was all the way over bous rack but was still able to hit him twice out of 5 quick shots.

I have a 338 armalite ordered. We have lots of cases of 223 I bought 20 years back, but only shoot it at targets. Luv all the new calibers for the AR platform nowadays.

My stags are as dependable as my the first preban colt I bought for 400 bucks in 80's.

quote:

Originally posted by Zhurh:
I've picked up a few stags from Bill on Van Horne (pro tec ,good guy), Around 900 bucks. He has some nice scopes too you can check out and every blk rifle you can think of.

Last one I bought was a stag 6.8 and he got me an acog in quick for it. Under 2 gran for everything. We live in Eagle on the Upper Yukon and I killed a caribou with it few months back and it was pretty far off, over 600 yards. The ghost ring was all the way over bous rack but was still able to hit him twice out of 5 quick shots.

I have a 338 armalite ordered. We have lots of cases of 223 I bought 20 years back, but only shoot it at targets. Luv all the new calibers for the AR platform nowadays.

My stags are as dependable as my the first preban colt I bought for 400 bucks in 80's.

Yeah STAG and Colt should be about the same being CMT made most the parts for Colt.

Thanks for the info, reading the chart seems like the RRA might not be the best choice.

Considering that the lower is what is "officially" considered the firearm, buy a stripped lower and build it exactly how you want, then you can get multiple uppers for it. This is my plan when I finally get the gold. My collection of uppers will eventually include:

.22LR
.223
6.8 SPC
.30 Rem
.458 Socom

This way one "official" firearm will be able to cover anything from squirrel to moose.

Colt 6920 $1099.00 now at CDNN.

nmiller, don't know if you want to go this route; but it ain't a bad one. Buy a good lower, put a good trigger in it, then buy the upper in the cal.and barrel,etc. you want. I found a company in Fla. named Tactical Machine Co. that builds a very fine lower.Replace the trigger with a RRA two stage match trigger and you will have an excellent lower without a lot of bucks in it. Have fun and enjoy the fruits of your search !Later on, you may want a custom upper to reach out and consistently touch the furry targets ! Charles

That might be the way to go, get a good lower and add uppers as "needs" arise $s permit. The same lower will handle all calibers, or do you need to get long action/short action specific?

quote:

Originally posted by NMiller:
That might be the way to go, get a good lower and add uppers as "needs" arise $s permit. The same lower will handle all calibers, or do you need to get long action/short action specific?

The same lower will handle all standard AR calibers except for .308. For that, you will need to go to an AR-10 receiver.

The only other "sort of" exception is if you want a 9mm AR. There are some 9mm specific lowers that will take 9mm magazines with no modifications. Others will require a magazine block that fits in the mag well and allows the use of 9mm magazines. The mag block can be removed, allowing normal magazines to be used, but most people will simply have a dedicated 9mm instead of going through the hassle of swapping it out.

NMiller, the TaxPhd is right; one lower in the AR15 size will do for all those size cartridges; which there are now many to choose from. You need the AR 10 size for the bigger/longer stuff that's based on the 308.Odd, but you can even get a 450 SOCOM in the AR15, along with the 50 Beowulf ! The sellers pretty much spell out which AR their upper is for. One plus of buying the lower is it's the part requiring an FFL. You can have all the uppers you want shipped direct to you. But, you may have known that. Lots of good upper builders out there; my favorite is Insight Shooting Systems in Colo. Charles

I have never seen a Colt AR, out of the box, that did not work 100%. I have seen a few thousand of them...

I have seen about a thousand or so of Rock River rifles, and have not seen any problems with them either...

In both cases these rifles have fired between 700 and 5000 rounds with no problems, properly lubed of course.

My experience with Colt AR15's/M16's spans over 35 years.

I fired a couple of hundred rounds through one just 2 days ago...

I also fired a Lewis Machine and Tool AR, and it was 100% as well, but I only shot it 60 rounds or so as I was helping a buddy sight it in...

That chart is for "fightin'" ARs. If you want to favor accuracy over durability of the barrel, I'd go with the RR and a stainless varmint tube.

quote:

.22LR
.223
6.8 SPC
.30 Rem
.458 Socom

I like your list.
I wouldn't mind completing one just like it myself!

AR15 in 30 Remington AR.

Anyone have any experience with the CMMG and its "WASP" coating?

I recently got a Stagg my buddy just got a DPMS. I shoot a good bit, he saw some cheap bullets at Cabellas and we bought several thousand rounds.. They are Herters brand 55 gn pointed tip not fmj. My gun shoots them like crazy,, never a jam or feed problem,, his won't shoot them at all, in fact seems it will only shoot brass base, hornaday, winchester etc,, at almost 3 times the price. Has anyone seen this before???

Good list, but I ended up building complete lowers after the second one. It's a common symptom among AR shooters.

Something to look seriously at is the 300 Blackout. Think of a 300 Whisper, with a few changes. The idea was to get around the thinning of the cases by necking them (221FB) up to 30 caliber.
I have a contact in Utah that uses a fancy Giraud sizer/trimmer that takes military or commercial brass and cuts it to length, FL sizes it, and swages the primer pocket of the military stuff.

My primary use will be in a pistol receiver with an 11" barrel. Imagine a 247gr bullet at 1050fps (subsonic) with a suppressor... Phffft! Clack.

Rich

I have a S&W M&P 15 and a Colt 6920, both flattops with removable carry handles and both good rifles with the edge going to the Colt. For a bit more than the $800 - $1000 you are planning to spend you can get a Colt, they are the gold standard in quality.

Keep an eye on CDNN. I bought my Smith from them for $799 NIB with a $100 rebate and they also recently had Colts on sale.

NM,

there has been really good advice so far. But the comparison chart is for combat and law enforcement ar's where people's lives are on the line. For your purposes "coyote's and plinking" most major name brand producers will meet your needs. Look at the major players and pick out a couple of models your interested in and the guys can tell you the pros and cons of that model and features. Barrel length, weight, durability, dependability etc. What is your accuracy expedtations? 1 moa or do you expect better, willing to except worse? 16" barrel tend to be louder and lose some fps over a 20", do you plan on clearing rooms in a house with it, or ride in a vehicle ready to shoot then the 16" advantages have more merit, will you be in tight cover with it? Then there is handling 20" can tend to feel barrel heavy depending on the barrel profile. Handle a couple and try the different shooting positions you intend to use.

RRA get high marks from predator hunters and competion guys and have a strong reputation for accuracy, but poor marks from LE and combat guys.

Bushmasters have been getting some comments about quality control issues since they were merged and started supplying the remington R15's. They have many satisfied customers though.

Truth be told, mine are the best quality out there.

just shop around for parts, and build your own.

Under the heading "Cool": look at the OPS-4 uppers from www.largrizzly.com Ambidextrous side charging handle, and choice of billet or forged.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Not everyone that sells an AR 15 make the parts. There are only a few manufacturers of lower and upper receivers. I believe RRA uses STAG (CMT) receivers. It's like this with a lot of them.

CMT sells different grades of parts. Keep that in mind.

quote:

Originally posted by NMiller:
Thanks for the info, reading the chart seems like the RRA might not be the best choice.

I would avoid RRA. Their two stage trigger is a clusterfuck, they use commercial sized receiver extensions which limits stock options, semi only carriers and buffers which are lighter than ideal, and to make their uppers and lowers fit tightly they increased the size of the mating surfaces to the point where you cannot be sure that your RRA reciever will fit with another receiver from another manufacturer.

Despite what you'll hear here and there, RRA makes a fantastic rifle. They are both accurate and reliable. Truth be known they'll out shoot most boutique brands you here these equipment jockey's praising.

Also, don't worry about "the list" it's just something carbine school commando's are anal about. You aren't going to fallujah or mogadishu. In reality most of the people that did, didn't expend as much ammo as you would in 3 day's of one of those commando schools.

There are two things to concern yourself with when buying a rifle. Accuracy and reliability. If you find a brand that will gaurantee both you're way ahead of the game.

I like stainless and I avoid chromelinings whenever possible. Chrome and accuracy usually don't go together.

Just something to think about.

I've had a few sub minute chrome lined barrels.

I also went to a civilian commando school (TM) and shared a line with a bunch of Freddie Blish' Marines right after they got back from Fallujah. Good dudes.

As pointed out by TC1, the RRA's rifles are very well represented on the firing line at Camp Perry National Matches. Several in my area use them and they are either Master or High Master shooters. For those with lesser classifications a reasonably accurate rifle will do fine, but with greater skill the shooter can realize the accuracy potential of the rifle or in short, he or she can shoot as well as the rifle is capable of shooting. If the Rock River NM version did not deliver that level of performance, they would not be used for very long. As also mentioned very few AR15's compared to the total population will ever be called on for extreme service and intended for sport shooting or hunting.

My personal favorite AR15 is flat top upper from Armalite w/ 20" SS Pre Ban-FH,BL type, 1/7 twist, and the lower is from DPMS. I built the lower from Bushmaster lower kit w/ issue trigger. Use Bushmaster carry handle w/ NM hooded rear w/ lens.
Have built numerous 15's over the years and used several brand of trigger assys, but learned to "tune" the std. trigger parts to give very good two stage w/ final break at near 1.5lbs(total pull weight of 4.5.) This combo is nearly 10 years old and has something over 4000 rnds through it and has yet to fail or deliver sub standard accuracy.
With WC846 surplus powder loaded as BL C2 loads, 69gr, 77's or 80's it is a concistant .5moa gun.

Mil or LE purposes -- LMT, COLT, Noveske...PERIOD.

For accuracy (not that either of the above aren;t accurate) I don't think you beat RR with a SS 1/8 wilson barrel.

Don't be afraid to build you own lower, easy! LaRue uppers are very accurate and so are LesBaer. But for the money a RR SS 1/8 Wilson can get you just as good a result. They are built very well.