I watched a youtube video a few days ago, and think about it from time to time. It got my curosity up. The guy was shooting a 308, subsonic, suppressed in an AR. The bolt didn't cycle, but between shots he would cycle it manually. Apparantly it was intentional.

Is there any point in doing that with a 458 SOCOM that you can see? I can think of three reasons, but I invite other comments. One reason, assuming the gas port was blocked entirely, is there would be no dirty gas blow back into the chamber, and it would run cleaner. Two, it would be quiter. Three, the brass would be easier to find. All three are worthy reasons, IMO.

KB

KB

You bring up something intresting for discusion.

I think most likely the 308 AR shooter was shooting subsonic loads that would not cycle his gun.

The 3 reasons you state are valid.

However lets look at some real world facts.

The only tactical reason a person would not want his semiauto suppressed gun to cycle, or he did not immediately self cycle the action or work the bolt if he was willing to shoot only one shot, and accept the results of that one shot. The reason for that would be if he was danger close to the threat, and did not want to take even the slightest chance to give his position away.

While I do not see tht big of a deal when shooting animals, when on some kind of Spec OPs assignment it might be necessary.

Anytime a shot is fired and the target is struck, or even missed the sound of the bullet, especially of the target is hit will be like a "bolt out of the blue". There will be some immediate confusion. If a semiauto action works a the shot, or if there is enough seperation, between target and shooter, the manual action being immediately worked will most likely not be noticed.

If however the shooter decides he needs/must take a second shot, if the action is worked even 2 seconds after the shot, his location might be given away.

One of the advangages of the 300 BLK is that subsonic loads will function the rifle suppressed or not.

lso with really quite suppressed guns, shooting subsonic ammo, like say a MP5 SD or a Sterling SD, the sound of the bullet hitting something is a lot louder than the sound of the gun firing and working.

Yea, I agree with everything you said. It's just an interesting thought, and I wanted to explore the practical side of it. I considered a 45-70 Encore, subsonic/suppressed, but the 458 SOCOM on the AR15 is just too logical to ignore.

I'm pretty sure that the spring on the upper can be adjusted somehow to allow the 458 subsonic to cycle properly. I think I remember reading that simply using the proper spring for the 223 was just about right, 458 subsonic, but not full loads.

I'm really, really curious as to how quite the 458 subsonic/suppressed loads can be. Also, I suspect the whack (sound) of the bullet impact will be significant. But that's the point of the 458, isn't it?

Thump and whack go together. If a guy wanted to minimize the whack of the bullet impact, I suppose he could just use a 300 Blackout.

KB

I thought about this for about 4 years before I moved forward with a suppressed 458 SOCOM. I elected to avoid the AR platform (even though I own one) because of two factors but first let me be specific; my use was intended to be predator hunting without regard to tactical or self defense concerns (now that TX Dept. of Wildlife has approved suppressors for game we'll expand that purose to include game animals).

The idea of having to manually cycle an AR turned me off. First, there is very little camming force for primary extraction that can be applied through the charging handle. So if you have a sticky round for any reason, you're shut down from a fast follow-up shot. Likewise, there is little leverage (even with a forward assist) to chamber a slightly reluctant round manually.

The second reason was the addition of a competent suppressor on a 16" barrel made the package unwieldy. There are no "compact" suppressors that work effectively with a 45 caliber bore and 35 grains of powder.

I already owned a Remington 700 EtonX electrically primed rifle that I intended to fit with a suppressor (the electric ignition is silent) so I rebarreled that to 458 SOCOM. It is at a local Class III being fitted with an integral supressor as we speak. Overall barrel length should come in at 20" give or take, the gun is somewhat light and cycling the bolt is a controllable noise compared to the cash register noise of a semi-auto.

Still, without the electronic primers a regular bolt has gun has two out of three advantages for me over a manually operated AR.

I don't think you get as quiet with the really big bore rounds like the 458 SOCOM or 50 Beowulf without a correspondingly large can. You could do better with a subsonic 30 cal or 338. I guess I'll find out when my tax stamp gets approved.

The large can could interfer with the view from the scope, which makes the integral suppressor seem appealing, in addition to the 20" barrel.

I thought about using the Encore and a 16" 45-70 barrel, to keep the OAL to a minimum, using a detachable can screwed onto the end of the barrel. I've got mixed feelings about the clumsiness of second and third shots, using a single shot. Reloading is just awkward. However, the cost of the rig would be less than other options, especially since I already have a working Encore.

I checked my notes for the 458WM subsonic loads with the Rem 405gr SN bullet. About 21grs of Trail Boss, or 25grs of SR4759 gave about 1075 fps.

KB

You can buy a Ruger 44/77 with integral barrel suppressor for about $1400 plus the stamp. A 300 gr 44 Mag at 950-1000 fps is pretty good medicine too, plus you have a light, handy and reliable repeater.

I owned a Ruger 44/77 once. I was the most inaccurate factory rifle I ever shot. IMO, they are worthless junk. I'm not the only one either. I recently witnessed a friend struggeling to get accuracy from his 44/77, at the range. He evently sold it and got some newfangled single shot.

KB

That's too bad. I wonder if they're just ammo sensitive. I had a 77/22 Hornet I didn't think much of but I didn't know the problem ran the spectrum.

The reason most 44 Mag rifles do not have good accuracy is the twist of their barrels. It is usualluy 1 in 38".
They seem to shoot good at 50 and even 75 yards, but at 100 they really open up.

I handled a 450 Bushmaster with a 20" barrel the other day, and was suprised at how light and good it felt. I have heard that with Hornady factory loads, a lot of these 450 Bushmasters have been shooting groups around one inch at 100 yards.

It's difficult to tell for sure what the problem is with the Ruger 77 hornet or 44. They are made with the same features as the 22 LR, which has no recoil lug. The bolt is rear locking too. Apparantly it works ok with the 22 but it's crap with the others.

IMO, it's not just ammo sensitivity due to twist rate. I tried lots of different ammo, factory and handloads, and some were better than others, but none acceptable.

What gets me is that Ruger knows they are not accurate, and still sells them. It's a damn shame, because the design of the rifles is really good, with the rotary magazine and all, but something is flawed, and only Ruger has the wherewithall to fix it. I'm reasonably sure that the addition of a recoil lug, up front, perhaps sandwiched between the barrel and the receiver like the Rem 700 would do the trick. I think the problem is that the whole receiver acts as a recoil lug, and springs in some bad way affecting accuracy. Also, IMO, the 44 mag is a poor substitute for a rifle cartridge, but made acceptable if the platform is acceptable. The Ruger 77/44 is not acceptable, out of the box, IMO.

IMO, the 450 Bushmaster or the 458 SOCOM is a much better way to go.

In a bolt action, it's best to avoid rimmed cartridges. The bolt locking lugs need to be inside the front of the receiver ring, and the receiver needs a recoil lug, in front of the bolt locking lugs. That's why the CZ527 in 22 Hornet is accurate, and the Ruger 77 Hornet is not.

If a guy needs a small carbine, the CZ 527 in 7.62x39 is a very good choice. It's more accurate, and provides more useful range than the Ruger 44/77 or the Hornet, especially with handloads and 150gr bullets. The 7.62x39 is also acceptable subsonic/suppressed, and has a 10" twist rate, so the readily available RN 180gr .311 bullets are wonderfully accurate. You can get near 1800 fps with normal loads out of those bullets. I used my CZ527 for hunting grouse and rabbits, with downloaded handloads, which were very mild and accurate. Those 123gr bullets were perfect for such use.

KB

If one is going to built an AR that at times may be manually operated you build it with a side bolt, your preference either right or left side. They then do have plenty enough camming force to extract. I fired case shouldn't be really hard to extract in any firearm unless the chamber is very rough or the load was very over pressured.

With that said I have a friend that has a battery of switch barrel AR 15's with no gas system. They have the side charge handle and a unique free float forearm and he only tightens the barrel hand tight...and boy do they shoot too. Lot's of misconceptions out there about AR 15's. Adding a can to the AR 15 changes it's gas system which effects the semi or full automatic operation of it. One can tune an AR 15 to cycle with some very anemic loads.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
If one is going to built an AR that at times may be manually operated you build it with a side bolt.

Yea, that's the way the 308 I described in the opening post was set up. The guy cycled it manually very quickly.

My question is how is that done? Does it require a special upper receiver and bolt carrier? How is the side charging handle attached?

KB

It looks like this is a good receiver choice, if a side charging handle is wanted.

http://megamachineshop.com/arm...ER-M0300/loader.html

Since this thread was started I have been shooting and hunting with a 458 SOCOM.

ALL the parts in the lower are the same as for a 223/5.56, as I have shot a 223/5.56 upper on this same lower.

Also from what I have gathered talking to others that have shot a 458 SOCOM with regular and subsonic loads in the same rifle, they all work with no modifications to the upper of the lower, ie not changes in the gas system or the spring or buffer in the lower.

That was one of the design factors in the 458 SOCOM is that ALL it was necessary to do was to change the 223/5.56 upper for the 458 SOCOM upper.
Also the 458 SOCOM works in UNMODIFIED M16 bagazines.

IMHO, the 458 SOCOM is one of the best things to happen to the AR15's. It is one great hunting calibre.

The 458 forum is back up. The sub sonic powder of choice is a h4198 load with 500 gr cast bullets. In a bolt gun a faster powder would work, lilgun or bluedot should work well and produce less gas pressure.I have not reload sub's for the socom yet. I been waiting a year for SBR to build my can. I been told they will run quiet. Gas tube length will determine what powders you need to run. Carbine lengh needs rl7 or 4198, pistol tubes h110 and lilgun.

JD