what is considered effective range, and how do they compare at SMG ranges?

As memory serves, the M16A1 was rated at 420 meters. The M16A2 was rate at 550 meters.
The M9 is rated at 50 meters.
H&K rates the MP5 at 100 meters.

Part of the consideration for rating the 9mm from an SMG is the gun it is fired from - not so much in terms of killing power but in terms of accuracy. After all, no point in having a 700 Nitro if you can only hit the thing in the foot !!!

H&K vs Uzi

Closed Bolt, Open bolt set up.

One of the reasons the H&K is so good.

556 w/ 55 or 62 ball from a rifle or even a carbine length plaform is much more effective in penetration, tissue destruction and safety compared to 9mm ball.

Your question may be too broad to be answered much more than that.

Specify bullets, barrel length etc and maybe ytou will get a more defined answer.

A few facts about the aobbove statement:

55 or 62 grain ball are much more effective than 9mm-ball or HP and penetrte builing construction LESS than 9mm ball for certain, possibly HPs of normal construction, but wreck havoc in body tissue to a much greater extent. As long as impact velocity is above 2500 fps (which a 16 or even 14 inch 556 will meet)-but this extends only out to about 90m from short barrelled guns. Modern frangible mono-metal or bthp bullets may extend that effective range some.

If I had to pick 3 different rifle and 3 different pistol calibers to carry into battle, neither of those would make either list.

Just re-read that and it doesn't really make much sense. What I really meant was pick a top 3 in each category. Not actually carry all 3. LOL

Baised on actual Law Enforcement shootings in the USA the 223/5.56 is far more effective than the 9mm. FAR MORE, esecially with commercial SP/HP type bullets.

I have shot living critters with both, rifle vel rounds do a lot more damage. There is no comparison the 5.56 does way more damage.

Use the 5.56 to drop/wound the individual at what ever range and take your time to finish them off with either weapon.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by arkypete:
Use the 5.56 to drop/wound the individual at what ever range and take your time to finish them off with either weapon.

Jim

That is discusting and X2.....

Well if you wish to drag the fellow off the field, go for it.
From what I've read, heard, etc. the dead don't cause as much a problem as the live ones.

What's X2?

Jim

The big thing with Pistol caliber carbines you don't gain very much over a pistol! Yes you get a longer site plane for better accuracy but not much more power! Thats why those that made pistol caliber carbines came out with carbine ammo- hotter then normal pistol ammo to boost the power in the carbines! High powered rifle rounds are way better then pistol rounds for SD!

PUMA is right, 9mm subgun ammo is much hotter than what is generally commercially avaiable.

Steffen,

Some police departments here in the US use very short barreled AR's instead of 9 or 10mm sub machineguns for entry weapons.

They have barrel lengths of 10 or 12.5 inches. A 14.5 inch barrel like the M4 carbine would be considered a rifle.

The only reason to use a 9 or 10mm is that from a closed bolt SMG like the HK series you can have a very quiet sound supressor attached and still have a fairly accurate weapon out to 100 yards. Though 50-75 is better. (Time of flight and drop gets to be a problem).

Some SMG's with low cyclic rate, like the old Karl Gustaf M45 or Sterling, or newer Calico, are so easy to control on full auto that the large number of multiple hits may make up for the pistol cartridges lack of energy.

Some care must be given if using a short barrel AR however. I know of one recent incident where an experienced officer (three previous lethal force incidents with a pistol or AR) shot and killed a hostage who was behind a bad guy. The 5.56mm bullet passed through and killed the hostage.

Rather than use a light weight bullet in the 556 he was using heavy target ammo that did not expand at reduced velocity of a short barrel. He would have had a similar problem with heavy JHP ammo normally used in a SMG however.

Andy

Andy
Yep I agree those that are using the very short AR's are not doing themselves any favors using heavy bullets! If they want good expansion go lighter in bullet wt! Say 60-65 gr!
In a good bonded bullet for expansion and penetration! Those 70-77gr bullets are just to slow in the very short barrels!

Puma, I was actually thinking of an even lighter bullet. A 45 grain from 12/5 inch will penetrate about 6 inches tissue and is quite explosive. Youd want a head shot side on as it would not make it into heart lungs through a big mans shoulder, but the sort of guys who shoot these things can and do make that sort of decision daily.

The various 55 grain polymer tips have abit more penetration but alot depends on who loads them. 20 inch velocities are seldom over 3000 fps and 16 inch velocity seldom over 2,800 fps.

The 45 grains are deffinately hostage safe.

Andy

PS As Puma points out, the 60 and 63 grain SP's are reliable over a wide velocity spread. Just make sure they are SP's not HP match bullets.