Was sitting in a local gun store today chewing the fat with the owner. Two fellas in their mid-to-late 70s walked in. One wanted to buy a pistol because when he was walking in the desert yesterday he was stalked by a puma, which scared the bejazzus out of him as he was unarmed. Some other passers-by saw what was happening and scared the cat off.

The other man came with him and since they were coming to a gun store, brought three pistols he had just inherited from his father-in-law, to find out what if anything they might be worth.

One was an absolutely "as new" old S&W nickled .38 S&W break-top "muff" gun with about a 1-1/2" barrel. Another was a Beretta .25 from the 1960's.

The third was the gun which interested me. His father-in-law was serving in the American Army in Germany right at and just after the end of WWII. The gun was his service-issue .45 ACP.

The exact make is unknown, as he traded some chocolate, a bunch of cigarettes, and a few cases of C-rats to get it engraved. The slide and frame are fully (100%) engraved in a sort of English floral pattern clone, but in germanic engraving style...that is "deeply" engraved. The work is clearly that of a superb engraver. The proportions, curves, everything are flawless. I did not yet get the chance to go over it yet with a glass for a signature, but I'd bet money it is the work of some once well known German master engraver. The serial number is still intact, and the gun has to be in 95-97% condition, or better.

There are no bring-back papers with it, but I think a person could get a notarized statement from his mother-in-law as to where and when her husband got the pistol and how long he had it.

It operates as smooth as silk, and has no appreciable shooting wear on it at all. Clearly it has been well cared for and was a "treasure" of his father-in-law.

Now for the maybe good part. Because the dealer can't tell who made the pistol, he has no interest in buying it and couldn't even give the gentleman a price range of what it might be worth. That's also possibly because he has only owned the gun store for a couple of months, prior to which he owned and operated a tattoo parlor. He is a very smart lad, and knows a lot about modern ARs, FN-FALs, and so on, but doesn't yet have a lot of experience buying and selling older firearms yet, so far as I know. (Obviously, I could be wrong about that.)

From what very little I know of engraving, I would say the pistol has at least $10,000 worth of engraving at today's prices, possibly a multiple of that. I believe I could buy this gun for a price I could pay, and I will be seeing the old gentleman again in a week or so. At the very least, I might be able to give the dealer enough info to excite his interest, if I knew more about its possible value.

From what little description I have been able to give here, and without any pictures, I know none of you can put a firm price on it either.

BUT, do you have any idea what kind of price range such a pistol MIGHT be in, in today's market?

Thanks for any suggestions.

I would want to run the pistol thru NCIC if I had a friend on the local PD I could trust, before shelling out the cash.

I have lived here since August of 1978, so I have a friend on the PD I could get an unofficial check on it done.

It would be a real shame to do the check and have it turn up stolen or lost overseas. The provenance letter would help a lot.

Rich

My wife still has one of those "muff guns", hers is in 32 S&W.

That is a good idea, Rich.

The PD pawnshop detail here has been running NCIC checks on firearms for people who request them, since 1983 that I know of. I used to do that a lot when I lived here before, but had forgotten all about it.

I won't bother though until I get some clue what such a pistol might be worth. It is not my field of knowledge, so I have no clue what price range it might be in, and I can't decide what I would be willing to pay for it. Without that, I can't even start to try to put together a deal.

If I can get a deal agreed on, I will make it contingent on it getting NCIC holy water sprinkled on it.

Well, heck!!

No guesses as to possible price range rom you pistol guys?

I know nothing about pistols, but I'd guess it must surely be worth at least $1,500 to $2,000, as I understand there are a lot of ordinary 1911s which bring that kind of money today. No?

Well, given your best guess, would you think a bring-back gun, fully engraved (which a fair number of officers had done if they were stationed in Germany right after the allied victory), would bring more than $2,000? How about $3,000 to $5,000? Maybe More?

Would that depend partly on identifying the make...such as Colt, Ithaca, Remington, Singer, etc.? Could that be done by the serial number alone?

What is your best GUESS?

Is there a 1911 collectors' forum somewhere?

Values on WWII 1911s are very dependent on who the manufacturer was. For example, Singers are worth big, big bucks as only a few were made and most that you see are fakes, Union Switch and Signals also go high. Engraving on a service arm if made by one of the most sought after manufacturers is probably a detriment to its value.

I suggest that you pose your question over on the 1911 forum, there is a lot of good info there on collectible 1911s.

http://forums.1911forum.com/index.php

If you go here and click on the links for "ID Pages" and "1911 Gallery" you should be able to determine who the manufacturer was and whether or not the gun is correct.

http://www.coolgunsite.com/

Thank you Cane Rat...especially for the link to the collectors' forum. Just the kind of info I need.

Glad I could be of help. Good luck, sounds like a nice find.

quote:

Values on WWII 1911s are very dependent on who the manufacturer was. For example, Singers are worth big, big bucks as only a few were made and most that you see are fakes, Union Switch and Signals also go high. Engraving on a service arm if made by one of the most sought after manufacturers is probably a detriment to its value.

I suggest that you pose your question over on the 1911 forum, there is a lot of good info there on collectible 1911s.

Cane
Would the owner of the 1911, who carried it during the WWII have any bearing?

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by arkypete:

quote:

Values on WWII 1911s are very dependent on who the manufacturer was. For example, Singers are worth big, big bucks as only a few were made and most that you see are fakes, Union Switch and Signals also go high. Engraving on a service arm if made by one of the most sought after manufacturers is probably a detriment to its value.

I suggest that you pose your question over on the 1911 forum, there is a lot of good info there on collectible 1911s.

Cane
Would the owner of the 1911, who carried it during the WWII have any bearing?

Jim

Sure, if one has proper provenance and even more so if it was someone notable. By notable I don't mean that as a slight to the owner of this pistol or anyone else who served but one that was carried by, to pick a name, someone such as Gen. Terry Allen for example, would obviously be worth more with proper provenance than one carried by someone less well known provided they were pistols of same make and in similar condition.