When I bought my 1st bow in 2005 the Bowtech Allegiance were one of the fastest bows on the market shooting a 450gr arrow at 280fps.

Then along comes the Tribute with 80-90# limbs shooting a 450gr arrow at 287fps on 80#.

Then the Destroyer that broke the 300fps mark and now the RPM at 323fps.

Above bows were or still is my own bows.

With the RPM shooting over 320fps I feel that a 450gr arrow with a Slick Trick broad head is just going too fast...

It might sound strange as we always want a bow that shoots faster and flatter arrows.

But what real difference are there in hunting scenarios between the 2005 Allegiance and the 2014 RPM?

We still take 95% of our shots within the 30 yard range.

You still need to wait for the animals to settle down and give you a good broadside or quatering away shot to the vitals before drawing back and taking the shot.

I have been shooting and hunting with Slick Trick's range of broad heads since 2006 in South Africa and last year preparing for a zebra walk and stalk hunt I just could not get consistant straight flying arrows out to 60 yards with 465gr arrows.

I will be back home next week Friday and one of my 1st stops at home will be my Archery Pro Shop. This hunting season I am going with the Carbon Express Piledriver arrows and I am looking to get 530-550gr per arrow once assembled.

Shooting a heavier arrow a bit slower will not only give me more straight flighing arrows, better straight line penetration but also make the bow just that little bit more vibration free and quieter at the shot.

Speed does not kill...
Accurate shot placement and straigh line penetration into the vital area is what kills.

Will have to wait and see how this works out in July as I have a couple of days planned with the bow and a tree stand in Africa.

Please let me know if you agree or not.

I am only shooting fixed broad heads so my argument may not be the same when it comes to mechanical broad heads.

whatever pleases you, plumb tickles me...

Bowtechs have the most handshock of any bows I have shot over the years. The RPM 360 is not as bad as the Destroyer series, but my Mathews Monster Wake is nearly free of hand shock shooting it.
I am shooting it at 62lbs, building the muscles back up after a two year layoff. I am getting 317fps at my 30" draw with a 425gr arrow.

Things are very different in America. We have a couple weeks hunting season when bucks and bulls are in the rut, and that is it. When you might get ONE decent shot in the season, you tend to lean more on the speed thing with a bow.

A smooth QUIET bow is always my choice over speed. Not that I'm the greatest archer to walk the woods but I've seen so many deer and antelope jump the string I've decided a smooth quiet release seems best.

I'm with BigNate.

Years ago I ran my arrows over a chronograph, I was shooting with a guy who was a bit of an arrow speed freak. I realized I didn't care how fast my arrows were moving. It just didn't matter anywhere near as much as how smooth the bow was to draw, how hard the wall was, how accurate the setup was, and how quiet the bow was.

I've since killed deer with the old Magnus 2 blade broadheads (they weren't the most accurate from this bow, but man they did a number on every deer I've shot with them), Spitfire expandables, old Wasp 3 blades, and my new favorites, Slick Tricks. They will all kill deer just fine. And with the smooth, quiet, and (by today's standards) slow bow setup that I have it isn't uncommon to get a second shot at a deer that has been missed or, more often, hit once and can't figure out where the shot came from.

its funny how different bows feel to different people. my BT destroyers, and my Experience before i sold it, had virtually no hand shock. its why i went with the D340 back in '10 when i bought that bow. i shot every bow i could get my hands on, and it was the best combo of speed, quiet, etc...

as far as speed goes, i'm a heavy arrow fan over a speed fan. my 70# D340 shoots 520gr arrows at 284fps. plenty for me.

i have a D350 now with custom barnsdale limbs that max at 78#. i ordered 80, but 78 is all i can get... it launches 641gr arrows at 270fps. i would like it around 280 but only because that is what i think it should shoot, and the fact that it doesnt bugs me, but it has basically zero affect on trajectory.

both of those bows are scary quiet. heavy arrows, cat whiskers, limbsavers, and well tuned bows all add to a very smooth, quiet bow that hits like a freight train. i'll be taking the heavy bow to south africa for my first trip over in 2 months. i know its not necessary for planis game, but i enjoy shooting heavier arrows, and i like to shoot them as fast as i can, hence the heavier weight speed bow.

the #1 reason animals are not recovered from archery shots are lack of penetration, at least i think i read that somewhere the trend today is large cut mechanical heads and lightweight super fast arrows. thats a recipe for disaster. i'll take my heavy high FOC arrows with a 2 blade single bevel helix over a smoking fast rage tipped arrow any day.

Rich,
I don't know whose Bowtech you shot but it must of been way out of tune. My BT Destroyer 340 is the smoothest bow I have ever shot. There is NO hand shock. At 74lbs it is dead smooth without even a stabilizer on it. It is dead quiet. I could care less about the speed.

My RPM360 has little to no shock and just a little noisier, but that is gotten rid of easily. Maybe not as smooth as the 340 but so close it would be hard to measure.

Speed is not everything. PRACTICE with what you choose to use
is everything!!
shane

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
whatever pleases you, plumb tickles me...

Bowtechs have the most handshock of any bows I have shot over the years. The RPM 360 is not as bad as the Destroyer series, but my Mathews Monster Wake is nearly free of hand shock shooting it.
I am shooting it at 62lbs, building the muscles back up after a two year layoff. I am getting 317fps at my 30" draw with a 425gr arrow.

Things are very different in America. We have a couple weeks hunting season when bucks and bulls are in the rut, and that is it. When you might get ONE decent shot in the season, you tend to lean more on the speed thing with a bow.

Speeds listed by the manufactures are quite optimistic to say the least..By the time your bow is set up for you with all the goodies you will be back to more realistic numbers. I have a Hoyt Carbon Spyder that I believe is listed around 330 and once I was up and running cam in at around 310 or so. Set up matters not speed.

Thank you for the input gentelmen.

I don't think speed is everything, at all. Laser rangefinders have made distance judging a non issue in most cases. Yes I know there are times and circumstances where you can't laser an animal.
I shoot 515 grain arrows at 260-270 fps and shoot through most everything, including zebra, eland and lots of whitetails.
I use magnus stinger four blades and slick trick mag four blades.
I was not aware that lack of penetration was the issue in not killing animals. I would have guessed shot placement
I'm sticking with medium weight arrows,medium speed and razor sharp heads in the vitals.

i don't know, df06 if the lack of penetration is the #1 culprit, but i am pretty sure i read it from a study of a deer harvest data sample of a controlled type hunting situation.

perhaps that was from a lack of recovery and not lack of killing?

so if you have a quartering away shot and do not get an exit, you could potentially have guts fill the entrance hole and have zero blood trail, and could be impossible to find depending on terrain. one could also have a shoulder shot and only get 1 lung or not even that much.

but i agree with you, lazer rangefinders make speed bows way less important. isn't it funny too that what is "slow" today would have been considered lightening fast 15 years ago. i shoot 641gr arrows at 270fps, and 520gr arrows at 284fps out of my 2 bows. plenty fast for me, and they both hit like a truck. makes target removal kinda suck, especially on 3d shoots. i buried one to the nock on a 3d shoot last weekend with the 641grainers.

rumor has it: Speed Kills...

experience says it helps
but knowing your equipment is far more important.

Speed is more than a few steps down on the important list.


also never believe rumors

I am looking at the Carbon Express Piledrive arrows for this season's bowhunt.

Total arrow weight a 30 inches will be well over 500gr.

Then it will be the fine tuning of the bow and broad head tuning confirming the Slick Tricks are hitting spot on.

The feedback received confirms that speed is important but there are more important factors.

Accuracy will win speed everytime.

Speed isn't as important as smoothness and light weight. That's why so many people are trading their compounds in on long bows and recurves these days...

quote:

Originally posted by cooperjd:
its funny how different bows feel to different people.

I shot everything that was available to me when I bought my last one and thought the Bowtech that was getting so much press was by far the worst for feel and noise.

The bow I'm using now is still new enough for me , but were I to buy another one today I'd be comparing them all to the Elite. The one I shot recently was very easy to shoot well, and was quiet as well as very smooth I thought. Better than my Hoyt, and I like it a lot.

I'm still shooting a Mathews Switchback. A Steel Force cut on contact 85 gr or the 100 grain. With the 85 grain, it's running 386 grains and 304 fps.
Very accurate, and I haven't been able to keep an arrow in anything I've shot yet, even up to a 5 x 5 Bull Elk.

< 400 arrow at 243 fps is still blowing through white tails for Me.

To me, the speed of an arrow coming off the bow isn't as important as "shootability" of the bow. I've got a bow that shoots arrows at a little over 300 fps. These same arrows are killing stuff just as dead as when they were fired from my 240 fps bow.

I'd rather hit slow than miss fast.....

So far; I prefer the high speed hit to any other option espoused so far...

Most modern high end bows are much faster than they were just a few years ago...set up is everything. Speed comes standard

there is a difference between punching paper and cutting hair and flesh.

speed is not going to make up for proper setup and practice.

unfortunately some use speed to make up for the inability to judge distance and wait to pick a proper shot on a animal

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
So far; I prefer the high speed hit to any other option espoused so far...

Same thing with every other type of recreation or equipment ever known to Man.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Most modern high end bows are much faster than they were just a few years ago...set up is everything. Speed comes standard

I agree 100%

For this reason my 450gr arrows needs to bumped up to 530gr +

This will give me a bit slower speed and more kinetic energy to mention a few positive advantages...

I have chosen Carbon Express Piledriver 350 arrows with a total arrow weight of 530gr.

Last Saturday I re sightd the sight tape for the heavier arrows onnthe HHA sight.

Yesterday it was broad head tuning time and the results are as follow...

Slick Trick and field point at 20 yards




At 30 yards



At 40 yards...



I then started shooting three arrows at three diffrent targets at 40 yards.
Two were field point and one with a Slick Trick.
They kept hitting the same spots if I did my job.

I then started shooting at the bush pig 3D targer to start working on hitting killzone on a target and not shooting at spots.

The result



Another two days shooting and confirming and I am set to hunt next week.

I am very happy going heavier to slow down the arrow speed as I could not get the same consistency with 450gr arrows.

looking good. i have my helix 2 blades tuned really well to 30y, will get outside and go out as far as i can soon to walkback tune at longer ranges. i leave for RSA in 44 days, can't wait!

quote:

Originally posted by cooperjd:
looking good. i have my helix 2 blades tuned really well to 30y, will get outside and go out as far as i can soon to walkback tune at longer ranges. i leave for RSA in 44 days, can't wait!

Good hunting, straight arrows and short blood trails in Africa.

Be sure to come and share the hunt.

I won't try and say speed is everything. But a little FYI here. Heavier arrows are by no means more accurate. Proper spine and proper FOC and the right fletching make accurate arrows. A tuned bow is a given.
I have shot through to many deer in the 340 to 350fps range with a 350gr arrow to believe this nonsense that you need 500 + grain arrow for reliable penetration. It simply is not true! Not only that you needlessly handicap your self. Say you range a tree at 35 yards but the deer starts to move away at a much more oblique angle than you realized. Now all of a sudden your not sure how far he is. Is he 38 or is he 42? My 340fps set up just doesn't care. At 270fps you've just missed or worse, made a crappy shot.

quote:

Originally posted by bluetick:
I won't try and say speed is everything. But a little FYI here. Heavier arrows are by no means more accurate. Proper spine and proper FOC and the right fletching make accurate arrows. A tuned bow is a given.
I have shot through to many deer in the 340 to 350fps range with a 350gr arrow to believe this nonsense that you need 500 + grain arrow for reliable penetration. It simply is not true! Not only that you needlessly handicap your self. Say you range a tree at 35 yards but the deer starts to move away at a much more oblique angle than you realized. Now all of a sudden your not sure how far he is. Is he 38 or is he 42? My 340fps set up just doesn't care. At 270fps you've just missed or worse, made a crappy shot.

Are you hunting with fixed blade or mechanical
broad head?

What is the avarage body weight of the deer you hunt?

Speed kills...

Else nobody would be shooting a compound in lieu of a traditional longbow or recurve and wooden arrows, or using sights.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Speed kills...

Else nobody would be shooting a compound in lieu of a traditional longbow or recurve and wooden arrows, or using sights.

Not really. Let's not forget the advantage of a shorter bow when comparing a compound versus a recurve or longbow. Then there's the advantage of holding a lower poundage when at full draw. There are many advantages to a compound bow over a traditional bow.

I'm not saying that one is better than the other, but I'd rather hit slow than miss fast....

shorter bows are commonplace in recurves.

If, as you contend, speed is not important, why do the companies start extolling the virtues of their newer offerings in terms of speed? It is the primary reason used compounds have about Z-E-R-O resale value. Nobody seems to want to save hundreds of dollars buying a 250-300fps bow.

They instead, happily plunk down a thousand or more (sometimes much more) dollars for the latest speed bow.

The reason I say that is because people do NOT think about what they're buying, they buy what they do because the media TELLS them what they want. They're incapable of deciding on their own. I've got a bow that I've had for over 10 years. It still kills deer, bear, wild hogs and elk deader than dead.

People are stupid when it comes to making decision on what they hunt with, it's all about the latest and greatest and what the "experts" tell them they should have. NOT what they can actually shoot well....

I think you are correct, more often than not. I have been lucky enough to have had a great archery ProShop a few miles away. He knows my "need for speed" and has pointed me towards the Mathews. Monster Seven before this Wake, but Hoyts before that.

I still have my Hoyt Rambo and Alpha-Tec bows.

I too have a very good pro shop near me. They handle most of the so called high end bows, Mathews, Hoyt, prime, etc.
The owner lets me and I presume many others shoot what ever they want in order to facilitate their decision.
I get a new bow every 4-5 years. I had two Mathews Drenalin LD. Traded one of them in for a Hoyt Faktor about 16 months ago. May trade the other Mathews in in a couple years.
I have bowhunted in Africa 3 of the past 4 years and Alsska this year. I always take a back up now on these trips.
Fwiw, these bows shoot about 265 FPS with my 515 grain arrows. They blow through everything, except Cape buffalo.
That speed and arrow weight in my view is a good compromise for my kind of hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerhard.Delport:

quote:

Originally posted by bluetick:
I won't try and say speed is everything. But a little FYI here. Heavier arrows are by no means more accurate. Proper spine and proper FOC and the right fletching make accurate arrows. A tuned bow is a given.
I have shot through to many deer in the 340 to 350fps range with a 350gr arrow to believe this nonsense that you need 500 + grain arrow for reliable penetration. It simply is not true! Not only that you needlessly handicap your self. Say you range a tree at 35 yards but the deer starts to move away at a much more oblique angle than you realized. Now all of a sudden your not sure how far he is. Is he 38 or is he 42? My 340fps set up just doesn't care. At 270fps you've just missed or worse, made a crappy shot.

Are you hunting with fixed blade or mechanical
broad head?

What is the avarage body weight of the deer you hunt?

Sorry for the delayed response Gerhard.
For the last several years I have hunted with NAP KillZones. Very similar to a Rage. I have only had two arrows not pass through in probably ten deer with that broad head. One was a 180# buck that i shot between the shoulder blades facing me with his head down. part of the reason it didn't pass all the way trough is because his belly hit the ground the same time the arrow did. He dropped in his tracks basically. Another buck i killed weighed 252#, whole minus all the blood that peeked out. It was a beautiful broadside shot that just happened to end in the bucks off side shoulder joint. He never made it out of sight.Here's a video for your enjoyment.
https://www.facebook.com/shawn...5368/?type=3&theater

With all that said i am thinking I'll shoot Muzzy 100 grain 4 blades this year. They are so accurate at 40 yards i can't shoot at the same dot else i cut my fletchings off. They are dead on with my field points as well. Thats with my PSE Decree shooting in the 340's. I bought some Ram Cats as well. They are not quite with the field point, maybe a inch off, high right. But very consistent. So if your wondering, no i don't have problem getting fixed blades to shoot goo going that fast.
So to answer more directly, no i haven't killed a deer with a fixed blad in several years. Thats what i intend to shoot this year though.
As far as average weight I'm not real sure, but the deer I've passed trough range from your average 120# doe to over 200# mature bucks. All with 350 grain arrows.

quote:

Originally posted by bluetick:

quote:

Originally posted by Gerhard.Delport:

quote:

Originally posted by bluetick:
I won't try and say speed is everything. But a little FYI here. Heavier arrows are by no means more accurate. Proper spine and proper FOC and the right fletching make accurate arrows. A tuned bow is a given.
I have shot through to many deer in the 340 to 350fps range with a 350gr arrow to believe this nonsense that you need 500 + grain arrow for reliable penetration. It simply is not true! Not only that you needlessly handicap your self. Say you range a tree at 35 yards but the deer starts to move away at a much more oblique angle than you realized. Now all of a sudden your not sure how far he is. Is he 38 or is he 42? My 340fps set up just doesn't care. At 270fps you've just missed or worse, made a crappy shot.

Are you hunting with fixed blade or mechanical
broad head?

What is the avarage body weight of the deer you hunt?

Sorry for the delayed response Gerhard.
For the last several years I have hunted with NAP KillZones. Very similar to a Rage. I have only had two arrows not pass through in probably ten deer with that broad head. One was a 180# buck that i shot between the shoulder blades facing me with his head down. part of the reason it didn't pass all the way trough is because his belly hit the ground the same time the arrow did. He dropped in his tracks basically. Another buck i killed weighed 252#, whole minus all the blood that peeked out. It was a beautiful broadside shot that just happened to end in the bucks off side shoulder joint. He never made it out of sight.Here's a video for your enjoyment.
https://www.facebook.com/shawn...5368/?type=3&theater

With all that said i am thinking I'll shoot Muzzy 100 grain 4 blades this year. They are so accurate at 40 yards i can't shoot at the same dot else i cut my fletchings off. They are dead on with my field points as well. Thats with my PSE Decree shooting in the 340's. I bought some Ram Cats as well. They are not quite with the field point, maybe a inch off, high right. But very consistent. So if your wondering, no i don't have problem getting fixed blades to shoot goo going that fast.
So to answer more directly, no i haven't killed a deer with a fixed blad in several years. Thats what i intend to shoot this year though.
As far as average weight I'm not real sure, but the deer I've passed trough range from your average 120# doe to over 200# mature bucks. All with 350 grain arrows.

Sound like you have a sweet shooting setup.

With the hunting season around the corner for you guys I hope its a good one.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
shorter bows are commonplace in recurves.

If, as you contend, speed is not important, why do the companies start extolling the virtues of their newer offerings in terms of speed?

Same reason 'Mr.velocity' Roy Weatherby did with his rifle cartridges, and thats to distort whats really important for the sake of sales.

The Matthews NO CAM is adverting hype rated up to 330fps, .. no doubt to attract those who want to jump on the hook,
but in more 'real world' bow settings, it clocks signifiantly less...

something to only worry the speed freaks not the hunters.


Look at how speed is overvalued:

a buck at 30 yards, it takes 473gn arrow .3435 seconds at 278fps
same 473-grain arrow wtraveling at 300 fps (which would require a very fast speed bow), it takes .3000 seconds.
The difference from one extreme to the other is a tiny .0435 seconds — not even one-half of a tenth of a second.

20 yards- far more common distance to majority of whitetail hunters, the time difference is only .0229 seconds
— imperceptible to both hunter and game.
60 yards the difference is only .0870 seconds, not even a tenth of a second.

The 70lb No Cam I shot three weeks ago at the shop put a 30 inch 425gr arrow over the chrono at 311fps.

That said, three different chrono reads with my Wake at 62lbs, 30" draw, and that same 425gr arrow read from 321 to 327fps. Go figure...

Speed doesn't do anything if your not accurate. Put the broadhead where it needs to go and it doesn't matter what the speed is.

at the risk of oversimplifying the accuracy thing; every week I see some newbie at the shop get 1/2 hour's worth of hands on training and be able to keep their arrows in a 3" or smaller group at 20yds with sights.

If what you gentlemen have posted is true, why do the archery companies keep increasing speed?

Any of you ever been to Redding for the premier 3D shoot of the country, or to the IFAA in Vegas the week of SCI?
There's a software program that lets you input data like arrow length, weight, and velocity, a few other things, and the sight you are using.
It then prints out a tape from 20-120yds or so in 1yd increments. The serious competitors carry a nifty little rangefinder monocular that reads in 1yd increments as well.

The local guys that shoot those two matches tell me that speed is the most important part of the equation.

One of the posters here will take a clean shot at big game here in Idaho out to sixty yards. He is a very accurate shot. He just bought a new RPM360. He did NOT buy it for the smoothness, he bought it for the speed.

A friend who is a PH in RSA guides archery clients as well as firearm clients, and mostly hunts himself with a compound. Another RPM360 owner. He believes that speed matters more than any other part of the equation.

the data Steve posted, very impressive. That said, does it include a constant decay rate, or one that is unique the individual projectile tested?


I guess we will just have to agree to disagree here on the #1 priority for a hunting bow.

regards,

Rich