I just wonder how the Native Americans or the Bushmen of Southern Africa etc could survive without having fancy bows as you people use.

How accurate were the traditional bows, how far could one shoot accurately? Anybody hunting with traditional bows?

Thats a good question and may be hard to answer. I suspect it had a lot to do with the shooter and how dedicated he was.
I imagine although maybe not documented that some of the early hunters may have improvised some kind of sight for there bows and worked hard at mantaining there equipment such as keeping arrows straight etc. I know from my own experiments with recurve and long bows that with instinctive shooting it takes real talent beyond 20 yards but with any kind of sight 35 yards is doable. 40 yards is in the ozone. having said that if you want to see just how good some of those guys were check out some of Howard hills vidios and you will be truely amazed.

Check out your local library or used book stores for a book about Ishi--the last true "wild" Indian. Also books by Saxton Pope (think Pope and Young) have some descriptions of Ishi's shooting prowess. They weren't long distance shooters, but masters of camo and they knew their game's habits, weaknesses, etc. and thus were successful.

I saw a documentary of an archery competition in South America between different indigenous people. They were bad shots by any of our standards.

Regarding North American indians I think some of the bows probably shot well but it takes a straight and well spined arrow to be consistent and they didn't have that. My guess is 15 yards would be the most a person could expect accuracy at.

Ishi used a deer head as a decoy and behaved like a deer himself, so he could probably get within shooting distance easily. I doubt they worried much about horn size though and any animal is "good enough" when you're hungry.

the chef

I believe they were pretty good shots, at least some of them.

Keep in mind the primary game was buffalo when Indians possessed the land and buffalo were extremely plentiful. Also the bow is a relative newcomer in the time before history. The atlatl was the primary weapon for thousands of years. Rivercane was a preferred arrow/atlatl shaft material and it was traded all over, just as it is today among paleo trad types.

I've studied this a good bit over the years and do a little flintknapping/ rivercane arrowmaking when I can find the time.

There is some very good documentation of American Indian bow skills in the various journals published after the Lewis and Clark expedition. Lewis was astonished at the accuracy and power of the Indian bows.

As an anecdotal observation, it seems to me that the better the local poison, the smaller/weaker the gear that was developed to deliver it (blow gun darts being the extreme example). Having no effective poisons, NA Indians seemed to depend on power and penetration.

I can't recall the details but one easy-to-find source is Stephen Ambrose's book on the trip.

Well then, Lewis was an idiot. I don't care what the book says. They couldn't/can't shoot for shit.

They were expert hunters, and horsemen, and typically rode a horse very near the Buffalo to shoot them, or drove them in herds past waiting shooters.

For deer and most game for that matter, they used their expert hunting abilities to stalk within very close range and shoot them. I have actually done the same and killed deer with a self bow. The accuracy and power of these bows is very poor.

Hunting ISN'T shooting, and especially wasn't to native Americans.

Kinda bold statement to make when you really don't know one way or the other.

I know this. Over the years I have seen a number of authentic paleo points with markers on them, mostly from Arkansas and Ohio.

The theory put forth by some older archeologist; these marked points were used by the better marksmen to prove their shot was the one in the kill zone. Indians apparantly used the 'poke holes and chase' method for buffalo and many points may have been in the animal by the time it was down.

Personally, I suspect calves and old animals were the choice targets just as I suspect most Indians were relatively good at what they did every day. Some were probably very good.

While I'm at it, most think of the Indians as relatively short peoples but Capt John White and others venturing to the New World were astounded by the size and height of the natives on the east coast. Many were big muscular men over 6ft in height.

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
Well then, Lewis was an idiot. I don't care what the book says. They couldn't/can't shoot for shit.

They were expert hunters, and horsemen, and typically rode a horse very near the Buffalo to shoot them, or drove them in herds past waiting shooters.

For deer and most game for that matter, they used their expert hunting abilities to stalk within very close range and shoot them. I have actually done the same and killed deer with a self bow. The accuracy and power of these bows is very poor.

Hunting ISN'T shooting, and especially wasn't to native Americans.

I wouldn't say 60 to 70 pounds at 24" to 28" draw is poor power. And as far as accuracy, I don't think a sample of one says much. There were reflex and composite bows in the new world in addition to self bows.

My guess- they hunted in groups to bring down the game, not necessarily a "one man, one shot" deal.

I saw a show years ago, had Indians from up in northern Canada, a group armed with various rifles that chased down a caribou, shot multiple times.

This seems to be the method of different "primitive" groups I see on the TV documentaries.

In one such show depicting Africans, the meat was divided according to family lines, not, "come one, come all".

There's a Clovis site in Maine that shows corrals built to capture caribou*, undoubtedly then killed in the pens- humans take the shortest, safest route that provides the largest return whenever possible. Risk increases, initially, with the payoff expected.

*that herd was eventually depleted- maybe due to being hunted out.

Just a quick .02

quote:

Originally posted by ncboman:
I believe they were pretty good shots, at least some of them.

Keep in mind the primary game was buffalo when Indians possessed the land and buffalo were extremely plentiful. Also the bow is a relative newcomer in the time before history. The atlatl was the primary weapon for thousands of years. Rivercane was a preferred arrow/atlatl shaft material and it was traded all over, just as it is today among paleo trad types.

I've studied this a good bit over the years and do a little flintknapping/ rivercane arrowmaking when I can find the time.

That depends greatly on what group of indians you are talking about the "horse/buffalo" culture of the Souix and Northern Cheyenne
versus the Apache in southern Arizona, the Cherokee in Georgia The Seminoles of Florida etc...

They hunted what was available.

arrow shaft material?

Choke Cherry suckers make excellent arrow shaft material with a minimum of straightening
This was well known to primitive peoples of Europe, asia and north america who had this species available to them.

Back in highschool I did quite a bit of target archery shooting the "School" bows were 25# draw recurves.

My personal bow that I practised with endlessly at home was a solid fiberglass "flat bow"
that took 90# at full 28" draw.

with even the simple wire loop sights I used at the time I could pick off empty soda cans out to about 70yards.

now with the actual limited ammount of practice I had compared to the highly motivated training that native americans would have subjected themselves to I can imagine that some of them were quite good, but I'm sure they had equal
patience at stalking.

And a miss wasn't a "lost trophy" to them it was
lost meals, not to mention that it is unlikely that an arrow would be anything that they could replace at their local WalMart or Cabela's

Homemade Arrows are vary labor intensive

I've made arrows out of raw fiberglass shaft and with modern fletching guides and spine guages it is more intensive than most people could be bothered to do.... even IF their life depended on it.

I have killed things with homemade wooden arrows
fired from a homemade bow.

It's a lot harder than it looks, frankly I wouldn't want my survival to depend on feeding myself on game killed with such arms...

also remember that after you've got the deer your backup weapon to hang onto it from a bear that might want to take it away from you would be a flint knife, or mabey a stone hatchet...

Let us remember that the English surame "Fletcher" was an occupation like
"Miller"(Flour), "Cooper"(Barrel makers) or "Tanner"(leather)


People talk in romantic terms about the American indians but I don't really want to think what their infant mortality rate was....

AD

quote:

Let us remember that the English surame "Fletcher" was an occupation like
"Miller"(Flour), "Cooper"(Barrel makers) or "Tanner"(leather)

FWIW the iron arrowheads used in Europe were made by blacksmiths, and sold to arrow makers- maybe the primitives specialized in a like manner, also.

I'm reminded, I don't know why, of able seamen aboard ship. They used tallow to grease sewing twine, and to tighten lashings, roving line through holes, etc. They carried it in a "half horn" made to their belts, with their sail needles stuck in it. Anyway, my point is, they got the tallow from the cook, but they had to trade for it, it wasn't just given to them.

Might be a basic human characteristic... prior to Karl Marx and Obama, anyway.

Indians had some type of barter system obviously. There is no knappable stone on the coast of NC yet we find arrowheads made from stone from the piedmont and beyond. I often wonder what the coastal Indians could have traded for slab. Smoked fish perhaps?

Can you imagine what the salmon, herring, and striped bass runs were like hundreds of years ago when no manmade dams blocked the rivers and commercial fishing was unborn?

Here's some Indianny pics.

I think you have to remember the amount of time the north american indians put into shooting their bows, and making their arrows.
Have you ever seen what an american teenage boy is capable of when allowed to spend all of his time on a trick bike or skateboard? He defies gravity. He does things that would seem impossible if not seen.
It was the same with the indians and their bows. Every arrow they made was something they spent time with. They knew each arrow well because they had spent time making it and straightening it,attaching the feathers and tip. Just like the thousands of other arrows they had hand made and shot.
I know modern people who make arrows that look like they came off a machine.
I currently know a school teacher who shoots deer at 30 yards with a bow he made and arrows he makes entirely from hand.
Fred Bear used to shoot flying quail with a plain bow.

Great thread! Started a nice dialogue with my husband this morning. We are both traditional archers. I have done a bit of research many years back, primarily on mountain men, but along with said research came knowledge of the Native North Americans. Frank 4570's post was right on. Native American men spent their days making their archery/hunting equipment: arrowheads,arrow shafts,vanes,bows along with other tools (scrapers,knapping tools, etc) and hand weapons the different tribes used. This was their daily vocation. The women tended to the homesites, children, gathering, cooking, pottery and vessel making,cleaning and tanning of the hides, making clothing, etc. It only makes sense that the men would become very proficient with their bows and arrows by whatever means or techniques they used to hunt.

The thrill and challenge of traditional hunting is getting in close, undetected, for that shot. Chris and I do that once a year, Chris with yearly, sometimes twice yearly success, myself, occassional success. We only practice a few weeks before our hunts due to time limitations. It would stand to reason that a Native American hunter whose daily purpose is providing food would have keener tactics, stratagies and skill than we do today. Not to mention the game was in much greater abundance and much less fearfull of humans as there was far less populace.

As Frank stated, let a young boy spend hours a day perfecting a skill and he will become incredibly proficient at that skill. Well, that is what young Indian boys did from the time they were able draw a bow or get on a horses back.

Again, great thread.

Regards,
Mary

I would venture to say, they were very proficient with there bows, they had to be to survive.
They were also very good hunters, and hunted in what we do not today.

They were smart enough to not just use a pointed stick, they knew a sharp stone made bigger holes and penetrated deeper, which allowed the animals to bleed out quicker.

I think they were experts with a bow,My oldest son started shooting when he was 3..when he hit 16years old,i never saw him miss a bullseye after that ever,he was a pure Death ray with a bow! Another kid that had never shot before came over and i taught him the basics and he was zingging those arrows like a pro in 30 minutes,he was a natural for sure,I have taught many shooters thru the years and have allways had them come back to me years later and thank me for teaching them archery,they all said that there bow was like a best friend to them.If you want a good read,Find the book Called The Whitchery Of Archery...It was written by 2 brothers who had returned from the civil war and lived in calhoun, Georgia..There names were Maurice & will Thompson and they are the founding fathers of modern archery in america in the 1800s..they were before pope & young...They told of expolering the wilderness on expiditions with just the longbow,they went into the everglades and found some guys living back in the swamp that thought the civil war was still going on!Also they hired a Seminole indian guide to take them deep into the swamp by boat and told of how he old used a longbow and told of a shot he made on a Hawk up in the sky flying around and his bow was like a 100# pull....They would hunt mainly for the feathers of cranes and water birds,but made there own archery tackle and had killed Panther & deer,etc. on there many adventures!Its a awsome bok to read and they were masters of the longbow.I have tried them all thru the years and my favorite is the recurve,I know of a video on trade gang.com where they show Paul Shaffer hunting and he was one of the greatest hunters/bowyers/shooters in history,in the video he shoots a deer at 80yrds. and kills a cape buffalo and a mountain goat if remember right,I talked to his good friend one time about ordering a bow but never got around to it,silvertip recurves are still being made,but Paul has passed on in a skinng accident years ago,He left us all to soon..He was one of the best archers of alltime to me as well as Fred Bear,Howard Hill,Gene & Barry Wenzel,Byron Furguson is simply awsome shot,check out his shooting on utube,also another Georgia great was Dan Quillion.I met him many times and also shot with him and his son in archery tournements,He was a living legend and shot 90# longbow....A Great man and Legend for sure!
I went to see the olympics archery shoot in 1998 i think it was and was amazed at what the worlds best can do,they shot what looked a 100yards and all shots were bullseyes...unreal!
Anyway dont be fooled into thinking a non-compound is not very accurate and quick & deadly..Thats a myth..Happy shooting!

Another great "must read" is Fred Bears Field Notes.. I allways teach this..Think about the arrow,become the arrow,you will learn fast this way..Become the arrow..The more you shoot the more you will understand this and the better archer you will become,you have to get what i call inthe zone,where you block everything out of your mind except concentrating on the shot..Another archer that will astound you is Dan Fitzgerald,hes awsome!
Another legend for sure!
I found a Perfect long grey flint arrow head just laying on the ground top the other day while scouting my bear ridge and couldnt understand where grey flint had come from,I have never seen anykind of Flint in my area of anykind,much less gray!I have found black flint but never grey,I also found 35 pieces of broken pottery shards 2 feet down in the ground digging a hole on the property to Plant fruit/apple/ trees,I allways wonder how old they are to be that deep....no doubt there were cherokee hunters on my ridge because the whole area was cherokee land for ever,I even discovered aold rock work chimney way back in some no-mans land that is beautifully done and still standing with just the outline of where the logs outside walls once stood,the opening top has what looks like a wagon wheel steel cutin half and curved with all the rocks fanned out on the top....It looks to have been a cherokee home at one time before the trail of tears happened.....Iam gonna quit,I will talk your ear off about indians and archery.. The local indians dont call me Blackbearman for nothing!

Old pic of Pope& Young & Grizzly

My Black Bear harvested with a Great Plains 55#custom Take down recurve & snuffer head.This was the first bear Harvested in my state opening day morning of archery Bear season 2005

My recurve buck taken 3rd day archery season 2006

The shot was 35 yards..

http://www.pope-young.org/

Good Link check it out..

Archery Rocks! I just want to share a couple favorite pics..hope you brothers of the arrow enjoy!

What state do you live in blackbearhunter? And congratulations on your accomplishments! God Bless, Louis

I have a friend who grew up as the son of traders on the Navajo reservation in the 40s and 50s. All his friends were Navajos and most of their after school entertainment involved shooting longbows. He claimed that after a while he rarely missed anything larger than a beer can under 50 yards and this without sights, that once you got used to it, you just "looked" the arrow into the target. I believe him, add in for a hunter that you and your family would go hungry when you missed, the bow hunters had a large incentive to be good.

As an aside, it is my understanding that many tribal groups had a bow maker who specialized in making bows and would then trade them for horses, whatever. I was told a rattlesnake skin wrapped bow was worth at least two horses.

Somewhat unrelated, I was talking with my PH in Namibia last summer and he mentioned how good the bushmen were at tracking IN THEIR ENVIRONMENT but were usually very poor in other type terrain. He told of going with them when they stalked game. They shoot basically pointed sticks with poison on them. Often shoot at long distances (100 meters) and all they want is to nick the animal. Once nicked, they go back to the camp and then take up the trail the next day. Usually two or three days later they would track him down.

I live in Extreme North Georgia Mountains,close to Tennessee & North Caorlina! I have bears in my yard everyyear and have to watch out for them everytime i walk ot the door to go outside,I have seen some monsters as there are vast wilderness areas around me and boo-coos private property that dont allow hunting...The local bears have never caused any trouble at all and i hope it stays that way,I keep my garbage up and no birdfeeders etc,I do have a giant honey bee tree this year where the storms came thru and took out the top of a giant red oak,Iam waiting to see a black bear climb that tree to get at the honey....I shot a target nailed to it the otherday to check a scope and see if the bees were still in it,andd it was a warm day,,,there still there buzzing away,Iam gonna leave them alone,we need all the honey bees we can get,i understand they have a hardtime nowdays from a bee that was brought into the USA...
We have a old big sow about 475#that wonders thru on her journeys everyyear and allways has 3 baby cubs tagging along...this spring she had 4 !!! she has never gave any trouble and i always look forward to seeing her and her cubs,The littleones i saw this spring looked about the size of a gallon of milk,cute little buggers...Cheers