I've killed a number of deer on the farm in the few years we've lived here but it has always been on a nuisance permit because of crop damage and up until now I've never taken a deer with any kind of bow. The farm is the kind that deer come through eating as they go but there isn't a constant water supply and it's mostly open without good bedding areas. Each fall starting a day or two after gun season opens, not a deer will be seen for several months. Then in the spring, they will come on through eating fresh green fruit tree leaves and, later, if it's a soybean year, fresh soybeans. They'll also eat corn but only on the fall when it gets dry and other food sources have diminished.

It has been kind of wet this fall so the corn hasn't yet been harvested. Having the corn for cover apparently has given the deer confidence and, either shortly after sunrise or in the evening, a group of three has made a habit of coming through my yard. I decided that this might be my year to actually take a deer in bow season.

I have a Horton crossbow on extended loan from my stepson that I've taken hunting before but have never been successful with. Two or 3 weeks ago upon getting up early I saw DEER in my back yard. I dress causually in the mornings. Dressing in a swimming suit gives me the illusion of being in Florida rather than Ohio so I was dressed in swimming suit sans shirt or shoes. There was no time to lose. I raced to the basement, got the crossbow, put a broad head in it and snuck outside. I knew the deer usually came from the back field following an old fence line and then along the western border of my yard. I therefore went out the front door and took my position behind a low bush and waited for the trio.

Everything seemed to be going well; I thought the wind was right but, upon approaching to probably 15 yards and coming around a tree the larger doe came to an abrupt stop and reversed course. I suspect the corner of the house and vegetation caused eddies in the air that made if possible for her to smell me; I don't think she saw me.

A few days later, the driveway monitor went off and I look out the window to see the three deer in my front yard. There wasnÕt any way to approach them without being seen. It was obvious that a change in tactics was in order.

I decided to be ready for them the next time they came through. I took the screens off the windows of my upstairs office (pictured above) and left the cross bow there with a selection of arrows. I even practiced shooting at targets at various places out of the windows. The does AND a buck showed up after dark several nights later when I was at work. A few days later the does were in the front yard again and I took a shot at one from probably 50 yards and it was a clean miss.

Several evenings later, my wife, aka Sweetsums, woke me from a nap (I had worked the night before and was fairly tired) with the question of whether it was legal to shoot deer on Sunday. She is a Pennsylvania girl where Sunday deer hunting isn't legal but in Ohio it is. It appeared that my plan was coming together.

I went up to my office, loaded an arrow into the cross bow and opened the windows. In my haste, I had neglected to micturate (if you don't know what that means look it up) and I wasn't about to abandon my position even though the urge was there. Sure enough, the deer started coming by eating remaining fruit tree leaves as they came. There was one problem; I had opened the top window and the angle was such that I needed to be higher to get a shot.



My only choice was to stand on my swivel office chair which of course started turning as I stood up on it. I got a shot off at a deer eating fruit tree leaves at probably 10 yards away and have no idea why I missed. The deer seemed startled by the twang of the bow string but didn't leave; they just went to some trees in the front yard.

Fortunately, the angle from the front window was such that I didn't have to stand on a chair and had a good steady rest from a distance of about 25 yards. I didn't have the good broadside shot I would have liked but took the shot I had which was at the neck. The arrow hit with a satisfying thwack and the deer went down.

The deer obviously had some nerve damage but could still get around a bit and wasn't dead. I know that it's fairly routine for arrowed deer to take a bit longer to die than those taken with a gun and that it's routine for bow hunters to wait half to three quarters of an hour to start tracking but I didn't want the thing laying there suffering and wanted to end the job so waited about ten minutes.

When the deer saw me coming, it took off at surprising speed considering that only three legs were working and made it to the edge of the corn field with me in hot pursuit. It fell just in the corn field as I caught up and grabbed its hind legs. Yea, I know, not the textbook way to do things, but it didn't have horns and I was bigger than it was. Sweetsums asked if I needed help. I had her get me a pocket knife with which I dispatched the deer by making an orifice in each pleural cavity thus causing bilateral pneumothoraces.

I believe I once again have some respect amongst the deer population since as far as I know, none have been back. Hopefully the nice buck will be back. I'll have the right windows of my "deer stand" open this time.

Congratulations!! I think you'll get bashed a bit for calling it a bow kill, but nice job none the less.

the chef

No bashing.....it wasn't a rifle!!

Any deer with a bow is a trophy...good for you.

Good for you. Don't let anyone rain on your parade.
Jeff

Congratulations,

Hope you get a lot more...

quote:

Originally posted by calgarychef1:
Congratulations!! I think you'll get bashed a bit for calling it a bow kill, but nice job none the less.

the chef

OK, a knife kill then. Is there an SCI category for that?

Wow! I don't really know where to begin.

First of all, it wasn't really a bow kill. I'm not even going to get into the whole vertical bow vs. crossbow debate, all I'm going to say is that in my mind, a bow is something that you raise with one arm, draw the string with the other, holding the bow at full draw while you aim and then release the arrow at the proper time, putting the arrow into the proper place.

Your first crossbow kill possibly, your first knife kill, definitely, but say bowkill to any archery hunter, and a scoped crossbow isn't want they'll envision.

I would call it a kill, but I certainly wouldn't call it a hunt, not shooting it from the upstairs window of the house.

As a long-time bowhunter, even should a world class buck be standing within range, I would NEVER take a neck shot with an arrow. An ethical bowhunter would wait until a shot at the heart/lung area was presented at a broadside or slightly quartering away shot angle presented itself. And if that shot angle never happened, the deer would walk away unscathed, the arrow never released.

There are just too many opportunities for something to go wrong and not make a clean kill. The area within a deer's neck that would quickly kill a deer is just too small. You got lucky and nicked the spine, but you could have just as easily cut only the trachea, which would have not been a fatal shot. In this case, the deer would have survived until infection from a throat wound killed the deer via septic shock. In the mean time, it would have been wandering the neighborhood, staggering around with a bloody throat wound. I'm sure your neighbors would have been impressed with your shot selection.

There's no need to take such a risky shot. A good arrow shot through the heart/lung region will put a deer down in short order, and many times you will be able to watch it fall in seconds.

I won't even debate the whole shooting it from the upstairs window of your home. In some areas of the country, that is illegal, but I don't know if that's the case in your region. I will question the thought process that convinced you that standing on a swivel chair with a load/cocked crossbow, equipped with a razor sharp broadhead was a good idea however. That itself was an accident waiting to happen, and the broadhead could have ended up going through you instead of the deer!

Grabbing a wounded deer by the back legs is never a good idea either. Even though it was a small doe, antlers are not a deer's only form of defense. Their hoof edges are sharp and their legs are powerful. A friend of mine shot "only a doe" and I helped him track it after the shot. It was still alive when we walked up to it where it had dove into a thicket. He reached down to grab it by the hind leg to pull it out. Before he grabbed a leg, I suggested to him that we should shoot it through the lungs and let it die, he said "Nahh, I'll just stick it with my knife, no need to waste another broadhead." As he bent down to grab the leg, the deer lashed out with its legs, one hoof striking him just above the eye and peeling about a two inch wide swathe of skin down his face from eyebrow to his jawline! Now only barely able to see out of one eye, he held the flap of skin in place while I raced him to the emergency room to have part of his face sewn back on!

I don't mean to sound like I'm picking on you, but I guess I am.

I don't have a problem at all with an "Urban Deer Hunt," I've done it myself where it was legal to do so. However, how about actually building a blind, or setting up a popup blind? Or if a tree of sufficient size is available, put up a treestand? Anything to make it more of a hunt rather than sniping one from the upstairs window...

How about doing some practicing shooting from an elevated position so you can be at least 90% certain you know where your arrow is going to strike? Chances are, your arrow is going to hit higher than where you put the crosshairs, you should know where the arrow is going to hit and compensate when aiming so that the arrow does go through the heart and/or lungs to insure a quick and clean kill.

In the future, limit yourself to broadside or slightly quartering away shots. Broadheads kill by creating an opening in the closed cardiovascular system, and in order to kill cleanly, you need to put an arrow through the heart or the lungs, you need to avoid as much as possible the possibility of hitting heavy bone structure, which can stop or turn an arrow, even one shot from a heavy poundage crossbow.

Urban hunts are becoming more popular as people spread out into areas of deer habitat and deer move into populated areas. Ill-thought out arrow shots are going to result in wounded deer, and anyone that is anti-hunting will certainly raise a ruckus with local officials should they see a deer staggering through their back yard with an arrow sticking out of it. People that are on the fence, neither for nor against hunting in general and bowhunting in particular will be turned off by the sight.

Like it or not, we as hunters are under intense scrutiny by the general population and we need to do everything "right" in order to continue to have the opportunity to hunt. "Lovers of Bambi" are looking for every chance they can get to reduce, limit or eliminate entirely hunting where ever and whenever they can. Neck shooting a doe from an upstairs window, then chasing it down and finishing it off with a pocket knife is not doing it right nor furthering anyone's claims that bowhunting is a way to quickly and humanely reduce/control urban deer populations.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox now. Feel free to bash me as you will......

Well said Shof.

Well, first of all the bow isn't scoped.

Secondly, I have practiced shooting from my "urban deer blind." As Sweetsums pointed out, "MJ, why are you spending all that time sitting out in the field when the deer come right by the house?"

I've been trying to get fruit trees started on my property and have had quite a number of complete loses of trees due to deer either eating all the leaves or barking the trees with their antlers. It's not as if they have nothing to eat with 95 acres of corn or soybeans.

So, if a deer comes through my yard and I have the legal right to do so, I'm taking it out with whatever legal tool I have with whatever shot presents itself.

Ah, and just a couple of days ago, there was a buck and doe that stopped at the edge of my yard and then turned around and went back into the field. Maybe they're learning?

I also live near small rural community where hunting, farming, etc. is pretty much accepted. I've never had any complaints in several years of touching off the likes of braked 460 S&W Magnums, a 458 Lott, etc.

Good going Grumulkin. I'm not sure why others choose to be critical about this.

I've probably done things that would be judged negitivly by some but for those who judge show us your life and see if everyone out there agrees with what you've done.

quote:

Originally posted by Akshooter:
Good going Grumulkin. I'm not sure why others choose to be critical about this.

I've probably done things that would be judged negitivly by some but for those who judge show us your life and see if everyone out there agrees with what you've done.

I'm sure I've done things that others too wouldn't necessarily agree with, and I probably will in the future.

I don't have a problem with a crossbow (scoped or not). I question the decision to stand on a swivel chair with a loaded crossbow from a safety standpoint, but hey, it's not my life being risked.

I definitely don't have a problem with shooting a deer in the yard. If it's legal in your area, go for it.

However, what I DO have a problem with is consciously taking a neck shot at a deer with an arrow!!!

Conduct an impartial poll among bowhunters and see how many ethical bowhunters would deliberately take a neck shot with either a crossbow or a conventional bow.

I'd be willing to bet that few if any will agree that a neck shot is a legitimate and ethical shot to take.

And that's where my problem lies in the story...

I'd have to say that I'd never take a neck shot. I know a fellow bowhunting instructor who was severelychastised for taking a shot like that last year. I think he should have been banned from instructing actually. I don't and won't ever consider a crossbow as archery (although I have one myself).

Shooting off a chair out the window?? Foolish true but I would have liked to have seen the gymnastics involved in that one!!

Shooting a crossbow from a swivel chair isn't my choice of shooting positions but it didn't seem all that bad. After all you just have to keep the arrow pointed away from yourself and your finger off the trigger until your ready to shoot. If the bow had fired accidentally, all that would have been hurt would have been some inanimate objects. Better planning should avoid the need to use that shooting position in the future.

As for shooting a deer in the neck; it's not my choice of shots but if there is a deer in my yard again and it's my only shot, I'll take it. In other situations, I would probably be more picky.

I have a couple of questions for seasoned cross bow hunters:

1. What is the longest range from which you would be comfortable taking a broadside shot on a deer.

2. What is the longest range at which a deer if hit from an arrow shot from a cross bow could be reliably taken on a broadside shot. This question is really one regarding arrow penetration.

That deer is like 30lbs??? I have no issue if you are overrun and they are eating your crop. But THAT deer under THOSE circumstances I wouldn't be posting about.

Off my soapbox as well.

Shooting with an arrow is much different than a bullet. Bowhunters don't try and see how far we can shoot we see how close we can get.

To answer your question remember that a crossbow dart is lighter than an arrow and has less stability at long distances (I think). For sure any good compound bow can outshoot a crossbow that's a fact, although there will be people here willing to argue about it.

If you're shooting in an urban environment you sure don't want an animal wandering off and dying on somebodies front lawn. In addition you owe any animal that you hunt as quick a death as you can provide-even if it's a pest. Suppose you shoot at 40 or 50 yards between the time you squeeze the trigger and the arrow gets to the animal a lot of things can happen. Wind drift is huge in archery. The animal can take a step and you've gone from thinking "an easy shot" to a gut shot animal. Find a way that you can shoot at 30 yards or so and you won't have any of these problems. Then wait for that broadside shot, it'l come and you'll feel a lot better about the death and won't have a rodeo trying to kill the poor thing.

You might want to look into taking the International Bowhunters Education Program (IBEP) You'll learn lots of interesting stuff. It's also necessary to hunt in some locales.

the chef

Yea, I know all that. I, however, like to know the limits of what I'm using. From personal use, I would say with practice, 50 yards shots would be quite doable. I've heard rumors that some have taken shots up to 100 yards but I don't know them to be true.

I guess I'll have to do my own research.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
Yea, I know all that. I, however, like to know the limits of what I'm using. From personal use, I would say with practice, 50 yards shots would be quite doable. I've heard rumors that some have taken shots up to 100 yards but I don't know them to be true.

I guess I'll have to do my own research.

Well, not to put too fine of a point on it, if you know it, then why are you asking here? Fifty yard shots with a crossbow are "doable" but so is killing deer with a .22LR. Just because it is "doable" doesn't mean it should be done. I've heard of guys making 1,000 yard kills on elk and whitetails, heck, I've seen it done on video. But that doesn't mean I'm going to attempt such a feat.

I would say that your effective shooting distance is one where YOU can put five out of five arrows into a four inch circle consistently.

You'll notice I said SHOOTING distance. That's significantly different than hunting/killing distance.

What most newcomers to crossbows fail to realize is that just because it vaguely looks like a rifle, it doesn't shoot like one. Yes, the learning curve to accuracy is much less with a crossbow than a conventional bow, but all other rules of bowhunting still apply. It's a close range tool, nothing more, nothing less. Here's why.

A crossbow bolt is fairly light in comparison to a hunting arrow shot from a conventional bow. That's one of the reasons they have such incredible draw weights, to generate the speed. A crossbow bolt needs the poundage to drive a lightweight bolt much faster in order to get the penetration to put the broadhead through the vitals. Sure, a bolt starts out much faster than a conventional arrow, but it also slows much faster in flight. Speed and arrow weight equal penetration. With less weight, it needs more speed in order to kill effectively.

In order to kill a deer cleanly, quickly and ethically, you need to place the broadhead into the vitals region with sufficient arrow momentum to drive the broadhead through the animal, doing sufficient to the cardiovascular system to cause a quick death.


My best friend in Wisconsin has had two shoulder surguries, rendering him incapable of drawing his conventional bow. So his kids all chipped together and bought him a 150 pound Horton Crossbow with a crank to cock it. He thought too that he would be able to make incredibly long shots with such poundage. Boy, was he wrong.

Using the same broadheads (100 grain Slick Trick Magnum 100's), I was getting deeper penetration at 50 yards into a foam broadhead target with my 70 pound compound bow than he was getting with his 150 pound crossbow at 25 yards! That was an eye-opener for both of us!

So if you TRULEY want to know the limits of what you're using, then it behooves you to test your equipment. Go buy "THE BLOCK" broadhead target.

Now, taking what you want to use to shoot deer, shoot the target at 20 yards. measure the penetration. Back the target up to 25 yards and shoot it again, measure and write down how deep the bolt penetrates. Keep doing this is 5 yard increments until penetration becomes inadequate. You'll probably be surprised at how short the distance actually is.

My friend's crossbow is set up with a pin at 20 yards, one at 25 and one at 30. He feels that he might be able to shoot a deer at 30 yards, but is worried about getting adequate penetration on a deer and wounding it instead of killing it cleanly.

Sure, you might be able to take shots on targets at 100 yards with a crossbow, but consider this before you try.

A SLOW bullet travels at 1,400 fps. A FAST arrow travels at 340 fps. From the time you release an arrow until the broadhead strikes the animal, how far can that animal move? That seemingly split second of "air time" has now changed a slam-dunk into an "OH SHIT!" I've bowhunted for almost four decades and I'm careful with the shots I take. I know how easily it can happen.....

You're probably not going to take my word on this, and I don't expect you to. In fact, I encourage you to do as I suggested and as you said you would. Actually spend some time with the equipment and find out on your own.

With my current hunting bow setup, I can accurately place six arrows into the vitals region on a deer target out to sixty five yards. However, my effective HUNTING distance is 35 yards. I want to know with a reasonable degree of certainty that I am going to put the arrow where it needs to go, with sufficient force that the arrow and broadhead are going to cause sufficient damage to the animal to kill it cleanly.

No responsible archery hunter will do less. And each person's effective hunting range is different depending upon equipment used and personal ability.

So it's up to you to find out what YOU and your equipment are capable of....

Does this make sense?

quote:

Originally posted by Shof:
Does this make sense?

Actually, it does.

Thanks for expanding on the effective bow range subject.

Heres my thoughts, to me hunting is where I get up when its still dark and turn the coffee on wait for my partner and leave to the mountains and take a deer with a bow or a rifle alot of times don't have the opportunity for a shot with a bow. Because it is hard to get up close, knowing when to move and when not to. If I get one down rather with a bow or rifle and see that its still alive I'm gonna put another bullet or arrow through it. I havent shot a doe in years but if I was you I would of still shot her again. Only time I take neck shots is when I am using a rifle and the range is close. At my moms house I could shoot deer like you, the mule deer walk right behing the house about 20 yards to 500 yards but we have rules to follow. I'd rather be out in the country hunting where I have to work for the animal. Anyways good luck hunting with your crossow.

Here's the deal: you got a nice deer!

Rich