I'm a dyed in the wool rifle hunter. However, I dig the rush, and the challenge of bowhunting. I'll never stop gun hunting, but this year for the first time I'm on a bow only lease, in Rio Frio, just north of Garner State park. It has the dry Frio running through the property and is about 1/2 mile from the Frio river. It also happens to be a low fenced operating cattle ranch that backs up to a 4,500 acre low/no fenced ranch. It is covered up up with turkey, white-tail, hogs, axis. I've seen both fox and coyote. Last year, I was not able to hunt this lease. This year I can. I watched this buck a couple times last year during bow season, as I was setting in a tri-pod, hunting axis and hogs. This guy came out at 23 paces. Here are a couple of pix. He was seen a couple more times but was not shot to our knowledge. If you had the opportunity to do so, would you take the shot.
Best
GWB

YES, YES, YES!!! I would take the shot, though I do practis quite a bit in ranger longer they 50yards. At 30 yards I can get consistant 2 inch groupings with five arrows.

Mathews monster 7.0 with 62lb draw, Posten stab, viper microtune sight, and Schaffer opposition rest.

Do you mean would I shoot that particlular deer? I wouldn't where I live because it's not big for our area. But if it's a decent size for your area then I would run an arrow through him. I'd wait for a better shot presentation than either of the pics that you have though.

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya: If you had the opportunity to do so, would you take the shot.
Best
GWB

Shot #1, no, there's nothing there for me. Shot #2, maybe. Is there a booby-trap in #2, other than the presence of a second deer close by?

#1...wouldn't take that shot on any deer

#2...easy choice if the deer is big enough...he's not so I wouldn't shoot. He needs a couple more years.

What was the question???

#1 depends on your KE and P of your bow/arrow set up and distance.

With the bow I shoot which would be good for anything in Africa, I would take that shot if I was within 30 yards and he was big

No way on #1 regardless of "KE and P" of the bow--not an ethical shot. #2--wait until that left foreleg is forward, then stick 'em if the deer fits your idea of a shooter.

Guys, evidenced by the responses, I failed to phrase my question correctly. I was referring to the age of the deer rather than his presentation.
I agree with each that no I would not take the shot head on, and would wait for a better shot on number two. But thanks for the responses.
Best
GWB

I carefully read your post. You were not hunting white tail. If I were bowhunting deer, yes I would shoot him. It sounds like you have bow hunted before but rifle hunt too. Any animal you can take with a bow is a trophy. I hunt for meat when I deer hunt. If I am trophy hunting, I would be thinking no, I would not shoot him. So,are you hunting for food or a trophy or both?

Cheers,

Matt

Matt,

Yes, I'm more of a gun hunter than bow hunter. I got my first recurve bow around 11 and hunted small game with field points at that time. I shoot a Matthews FX. Dated, but works fine for me. My biggest reservation with bow hunting is the amount of game I have seen lost due to lack of patience and poor shooting. One thing I think in my favor, due to the amount of time I am able to hunt, I'm generally under no pressure to make a shot. If I don't take the shot today, well there is always another day.
I really don't trophy hunt as an end in itself. I call myself a meat hunter. Texas allows 5 whitetail per tag. If I get on two leases, I can typically take 10 deer in a season. I love to be afield hunting. Hogs can be taken year round. With the addition of bow season I can be in the field hunting deer from the first weekend of October through the first weekend in January.
I do not recall ever scoring an animal I've taken. Our deer in Texas do not get big like up north. South Texas deer grow pretty good racks. This was a typical hill country deer. Free range, no supplemental feeding. He'd had a leg injury you can see in the picture. I can't recall now but I think judged him to be 4 to 5 years old. My bud has secured this lease and we are letting stuff we judge to be less than 5 years old walk unless its a really inferior deer. We plan to take does and culls for the next couple years. Other than eating the sausage, steaks, roasts and jerky that come from the deer, the thing I like most is the rush that comes from being able to successfully come to full draw and release on one's quarry at 15 to 23 paces. Its different than setting out 200 yds. and squeezing the trigger.

GWB

Sounds very reasonable to me! I agree, most archery losses are to not waiting for the right shot, to far or wrong angle. A bow is not a rifle and shouldn't be tried to turn to one. An arrow actually penetrates VERY well in soft tissue, better than a bullet in many cases, BUT dosn't do well on bone. #1 is not a bow shot for ANYBODY, I have on occasion hunted deer with an 85# bow and 970 grain arrows and I wouldn't take that shot on an unwounded animal. #2, nothing wrong with that shot, nothing but rib bones blocking the lungs, though I would wait until he turns his head away!

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Originally posted by dustoffer:
No way on #1 regardless of "KE and P" of the bow--not an ethical shot. #2--wait until that left foreleg is forward, then stick 'em if the deer fits your idea of a shooter.

My rig that shoots an arrow with 95 ft/lbs of energy would blow completely through that puny 120 pound deer at 20 yards on his shoulder blade.

quote:

My rig that shoots an arrow with 95 ft/lbs of energy would blow completely through that puny 120 pound deer at 20 yards on his shoulder blade.

If you are talking about photo #1, then you should go check some deer anatomy, which is a good idea anyway, there isn't anything behind the shoulder blade at that angle other than maybe the liver and guts, BUT very likely at that angle the arrow will glance off, either under or over the shoulder blade and in either case, the deer will not be recover anytime soon. K.E. is very important for impressing your buddies down at the range, its got nothing to do with penetration. #1 is the WORST possible angle for a bowshot and there is no excuse for taking it on an unwounded animal.

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Elephants or Deer: It's All About Power

In bow-hunting, big-game animals are typically divided into three categories: those with thin hides and light bones, those with thick hides and heavy bones and those with extremely tough skin. Animals with thin skin include caribou, leopards, black bears, feral hogs and white-tailed deer. Those with heavier, harder-to-penetrate skin include elk, moose, kudu, bison and grizzly bears, and the toughest-skinned animals include rhinos, elephants and cape buffalo.

It obviously takes more bow power to kill an elephant than a white-tailed deer, but how do you determine how much? Even with one species, the kinetic energy required for clean kills can vary

Studies recommend that an arrow deliver 25 to 39 foot-pounds of energy to kill animals with thin hides and light bones. If you're after large game with thick hides, your bow should deliver 40 to 80 foot-pounds of energy. If you seek boxcar-sized African animals, you'd better eat your Wheaties. Theoretically, you need 80 to 129 foot-pounds of energy.

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Bowhunting - Kinetic Energy is King

By Jeff Smith
August 2002

How fast does my bow need to shoot to harvest a deer? That’s a question I’ve heard many times at hunting camps, pro shops and just about anywhere hunters congregate. There’s a lot of factors that deal with an arrows ability to cleanly harvest a deer, however the standard in today’s world of bowhunting is Kinetic Energy, KE. KE is a factor of the velocity and weight of the arrow and is the baseline for harvesting an animal. You might say, “Kinetic Energy is King”.

According to arrow and broadhead manufactures, a minimum of 45 ft/lbs of KE for whitetail deer and 55 ft/lbs of KE for larger game. For the last seven bow seasons, I’ve shot a bow producing 62 ft/lbs of KE. In my opinion that was plenty of kinetic energy. I shot several dozen deer at that KE range and it did an outstanding job. On a compound bow, I’d recommend a minimum of 55 ft/lbs of KE, but would strive for 60 ft/lbs

Kinetic Energy
Hunting Usage

25 ft. lbs.
Small Game (rabbit, groundhog, etc.)

25-41 ft. lbs.
Medium Game (deer, antelope, etc.)

42-65 ft. lbs.
Large Game (elk, black bear, wild boar, etc.)

65 ft. lbs.
Toughest Game (Cape Buffalo, Grizzly, etc.)

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Basics for Bowhunters by Gary Lewis:
Bows with a 60-pound (27Kg) draw weight are heavy enough for all North American Game animals. In truth, it is the kinetic energy---not a bow's poundage---that matters most. Kinetic energy is a measurement based on the speed and weight of the arrow used. The higher the kinetic energy of an arrow, the more penetrating power or killing ability the arrow will have

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Namibia

Namibia have a recent legislation on bowhunting, all antelopes can be hunted with bow and arrow. The guide must have a special permit to accompany bowhunters. Just as RSA, Namibia have chosen the arrows kinetic energy as a rule for the various sizes of game.

Small antelopes minimum: 25 ft/Lbs 33.9 Joules ex Blesbock

Midsize antelope’s minimum: 40 ft/Lbs 54.24 Joules ex. Kudu, Warthog

Large antelope’s minimum: 60 ft/lbs 81.36 Joules ex. Eland, gemsbok

Ashby's penetration tests stress P which usually increases as KE increases

A nice buck, but I wouldnt trip the release on him. I'd age him a 3.5yrs maybe 4.5 but I dont think so.

Once again, KE has NOTHING to do with penetration, NOTHING. WRITERS that have nothing to do, but sit around and think up things to write about, come up with RIDICULOUS formulas, so that they can sell articles. I have SPENT DAYS, lots of DAYS tracking animals that people just assumed would be knocked flat by the KE. TWO things kill animals, placement and penetation. I have seen(on animals, not on paper) arrows with half as much KE, penetrate MUCH, MUCH farther than the higher KE arrow, BECAUSE they were heavier and they had better heads. Don't quote Ashby out of context, he has asked ME for info on occasion and NOWHERE does he give silly formulas for killing animals. He uses actual penetration tests and any formula is useless. Any bowhunter with any amount of experience will tell you which shot above is an UNETHICAL shot. Quit reading crap that people who have no clue are writing to sell you faster bows. The guy that killed the world record brown bear and water buffalo shoots arrows that travel in the 140fps range, but they go all the way through.

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Originally posted by loboga:
Once again, KE has NOTHING to do with penetration, NOTHING. WRITERS that have nothing to do, but sit around and think up things to write about, come up with RIDICULOUS formulas, so that they can sell articles. I have SPENT DAYS, lots of DAYS tracking animals that people just assumed would be knocked flat by the KE. TWO things kill animals, placement and penetation. I have seen(on animals, not on paper) arrows with half as much KE, penetrate MUCH, MUCH farther than the higher KE arrow, BECAUSE they were heavier and they had better heads. Don't quote Ashby out of context, he has asked ME for info on occasion and NOWHERE does he give silly formulas for killing animals. He uses actual penetration tests and any formula is useless. Any bowhunter with any amount of experience will tell you which shot above is an UNETHICAL shot. Quit reading crap that people who have no clue are writing to sell you faster bows. The guy that killed the world record brown bear and water buffalo shoots arrows that travel in the 140fps range, but they go all the way through.

Well a problem no one has mentioned with shot number one is you are all but busted by this deer. Unless deer behave different where this photo than where I live this deer will jump the string before that arrow hits him where aimed. NO shot with a bow at any range. I no longer hunt with a bow so he is toast for me with a rifle.

quote:

Other than eating the sausage, steaks, roasts and jerky that come from the deer, the thing I like most is the rush that comes from being able to successfully come to full draw and release on one's quarry at 15 to 23 paces. Its different than setting out 200 yds. and squeezing the trigger

Geedubya--you got that one right!!!! It is a rush!

quote:

Originally posted by dustoffer:

quote:

Other than eating the sausage, steaks, roasts and jerky that come from the deer, the thing I like most is the rush that comes from being able to successfully come to full draw and release on one's quarry at 15 to 23 paces. Its different than setting out 200 yds. and squeezing the trigger

Geedubya--you got that one right!!!! It is a rush!

Everyone likes something different. I like taking a nice 300 yard shot on a buck who thinks he is out of sight and safe every bit as much as the close ones. I watch open hillsides where the deer follow the landscape to protect themselves from any place close. It's a rush to reach out and smack one and have the others freeze and wonder what is going on.

I used to think my 70lb Hoyt, 550gr arra, Simmons head would make shot #1 with ease, straight thru the bone to the vitals.

Won't do it....

I hit a buck of that size years ago, he turned into me as I released. Hit sounded like a 2x4 breaking, with six er so inches of penetration. I watched him walk off, lay down, get up and cross a field, and lay down again. As it was gun season I got down, got a rifle from the truck, and killed the buck as he lay watching me from fifty yards away. Arrow head got one lung, NOT a good thing.

troy

Well, if that is a hill country buck, I would take him. Take your time, get close and really focus on making the best shot you can. I have found if I concentrate really hard, I can deliver a good killing shot.

Reality does tell me that every now and then something happens and I will be tracking an animal that is wounded. The same is true with rifle hunting but not as often.

Good Luck,

AKMatt

quote:

Posted 08 April 2011 02:37 Hide Post
Well a problem no one has mentioned with shot number one is you are all but busted by this deer. Unless deer behave different where this photo than where I

Thats one of the problems with this angle, but since its a shot that nobody should be taking anyway, being busted isn't really an issue. Arrows are terrible, TERRIBLE on bone penetration, so the wise thing to do is avoid the large bones and the secondary advantage is that the animal is not likely to see you, if you wait for it to be looking away.

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:
Guys, evidenced by the responses, I failed to phrase my question correctly. I was referring to the age of the deer rather than his presentation.

Ah. Given a shot suitable to my shooting ability, I'd take him...

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Nelson:
Well a problem no one has mentioned with shot number one is you are all but busted by this deer. Unless deer behave different where this photo than where I live this deer will jump the string before that arrow hits him where aimed. NO shot with a bow at any range. I no longer hunt with a bow so he is toast for me with a rifle.

most of the time you are right but somtimes deer act funny. Last seson I shot at and missed a nice 12 point that I had seen multiple times that summer. Not only did he not take off after I made the shot, he didnt even flinch! The arrow wasnt even a complete miss, the broadhead grazed his brisket. Just plain wierd