By the way, hunting in the snow is great. Got in stand yesterday at 330pm. Started seeing deer at 333pm and saw a continuous stream of live venison till 550pm. In fact, I couldn't get out of my stand till about 615 as there were backstraps, ehrr, deer all around me.

It always amazes me that you can be sitting on stand for an hour or so, hear something to your right or left, slowly look that way and the deer still makes you out. Yet, on those OFTEN occasions, like yesterday, here I am, getting in stand, raising my bow, removing my quiver, knocking an arrow, sitting down, adjusting, put my release on, then look around and HOLY COW, there's a big doe about 22 yards out walking my way. How does this happen? Why do these deer not see all of this or at least hear it?

Cat, I agree with Don. Kinetic energy does not penetration make! I have seen light fast arrows stop in game as suddenly as shooting into a steel plate. I have seen them glance off of the rib cage with a very slight quartering shot.
Book figures on energy will not stand up to experience in the field and with more then 214 (might be closer to 250, I lose count.) bow kills, I know what works, time after time. Thats a HEAVY arrow, period.
Which would you rather use? A 40 gr bullet going better then 4000 fps or a big, heavy, slow .54 cal round ball from a muzzle loader, or a slow shotgun slug? You tell me which kills better! You forget that penetration is what is needed, not how fast the arrow reaches the animal. I shoot deer every year that I find parts of those little twigs inside of them with tiny broadheads stuck on the ends that have healed over or are infected. I found three last season and one this season. I really watch my hands when gutting. It is the guys that fall into the speed trap that will destroy bowhunting as we know it and eventually change the laws concerning the equipment required in the field. The game departments will have to specify arrow weight and not energy, as they do in Africa.
The same is true for short, wide blades on broadheads used to reduce weight. The long, wide head will always kill better. The blades should be 3 times as long as the width. The difference of being stabbed with a wood chisel or a long knife. Maybe this is the reason bayonets are long enough to go through a man and don't just have the very end flat and sharp.
I never read about anyone losing animals with thier light, fast arrows here because they will never admit it. These are deep, dark secrets that will never be disclosed.
Let me tell you that I tried that speed route and I did lose some deer with perfect hits and I admit it. But I used my head and quit right away. A 200 fps or less, longbow with a heavy arrow will out kill any speed bow on the market using toothpicks. I hate to say this, but you know where you can stick your kinetic energy figures!

bfrshooter,

That is your opinion stupid but yours and you are intitled to it So I'm not going to tell you to stick it. If you think that you know better than more than a dozen bow and arrow companies that have spent years using the best educations and technology that money can buy to create a bow and arrow setup that works better and delivers more energy and does so more effeciently. Then that is your perrogitive. Not to mention the field testors and writers That have spent countless hours in the stands and shooting ranges. I personally have had great luck with the new bows, I haven't lost one yet, and I probably haven't killed as many deer with a bow as you have, And I say probably because I really don't remember how many deer I have killed. I would assume from your post that you are probably 30 years my senior and resistant to change. But that is no reason for you to mislead a new archer! If you really like the old way that well maybe you should take up the way of the caveman and start throwing rocks at them. You and your opinion are one that I have already spoke about in a previous post. I bet you think if you can hit a pie plate that is good enough! That may also explain why you have lost deer.

obiviously you missed this link.

penetration factors

Good luck with those rocks and good hunting.

Gentlemen,
Please do not let this thread turn into a Hatfield and McCoy fued.
I respect everyones experience and opinions.

However... I am an Elmer Kieth, John Taylor kind of guy. I just cannot warm up to mechanical broadheads. Also as I will mostly be hunting wild hogs [you can hunt them EVERY day in TX] and black bears, I lean more to equipment for BIG big game.
Still I appreciate each and every opinion.
My goal is to get a bow system set up after I return from Africa in April of 2006. After I have several animals under my belt I MIGHT experiment a bit, but I want do do it right the first time.
Please continue with the advice as I appreciate it.
Where else can a fella get such a wide variety of advice and info?

not trying to make this the hatfields and mccoys at all it is just amazing to me that someone who claims to be a great archer killing over 200 deer can be so ignorant of the sport they are participating. it is like playing football and not knowing the rules. For someone who claims to be an archer to say that they don't care about the energy behind the arrow just shows how uneducated they are on the subject. He is worried about penetration, but not KE, that is a contradiction. They go hand in hand. If he did try speed for anytime at all he obviously needed to have someone else tune his bow. I would like to see how it tore when it was paper tuned. I would like to have put the bow on a puller to see how far out of time it was. I don't believe that a bow setup correctly as long as you remain within the parameters set by the factory would be as bad as he says unless he just got a lemon.

The reference made of the 40 grain bullet. I am not saying you should shoot a deer with a 204 cal. and I am not saying that you should shoot a deer with a 150 grain arrow out of a bow shooting 3 grains per lb and 500 fps but I am saying that there is no need to break out the 12lb mountain cannon when a 300 mag will do the job just as quickly, more efficently and with better accuracy.

remember that knowledge is power and an educated decision will beat a guess everytime.

CatDoc,

If KE is what kills, then you should use heavy arrows because KE increases with arrow weight.

I would be willing to bet you $100 that your bow makes more energy - as well as the Momentum that I think is important - with a 500 grain arrow than with the light arrow you use now.

If I'm right will you switch?

I'll counter your Dr. with mine. Ashby on Penetration I notice your PhD does not point to any empirical evidence, mine points to years of tests on actual game.

All this current craze for speed comes solely from the 3D and target competitions that are supported by the equipment makers. The speed is an advantage for them because a range estimation error causes a smaller error. They do not care for penetration at all. No points.

I will agree that your light, fast arrows will kill a deer with a perfect broadside shot, but what happens when things go wrong? A good heavy arrow with a cut-on-contact broadhead will kill from a lot more angles than the light ones.

I used Muzzies on deer for several years. They work pretty well, and are easy to tune. But I think a true cut-on-contact like the Steel Force or Grizzly (hard to mount and sharpen.) Is a whole lot better.

all right, I'm going to chime in on this whole KE thing again too.

What is the minimum KE needed? Hard to say IMO.

I've watched a number of videos here at the house of Ralph and Vicki Cianciarulo. Vicki's bow is generating about 45-49 ft.lbs. of KE. Many many times her arrows are zipping through 400+ lb black bears at 20 yards with a NAP Shockwave mechanical broadhead. Of course there are times when it doesn't pass through. I've also got an old Woods Wise black bear hunting video where the guys are hunting with big aluminum arrows and thunderheads. I do not recall ANY of those arrows passing through.

I also have been entertained by Dan Fitzgerald's stuff many times over, he pulls about 80-90 lbs on his bow, shoots (or used to shoot) big aluminum arrows with fixed blade heads. His arrows passed through about 50% of the time.

So what does this mean? I'm not sure. But nevertheless, I still lean to the medium wt. arrow. Did I mention I shot another big doe the other day? Zipped right through her with a Muzzy. She was quartering to me at 12 yards. BH blew right through onside bony shoulder. That is a confidence builder.

don,

you are absolutely correct. KE does go up with weight as long as the speed remains constant. I use to shoot a 410 grain arrow drawing 82 lbs and my KE was over the 90 lb mark. But drawing 82lbs in the cold was very difficult.

If the speed is dropped then the KE is dropped also. a 350 grain arrow going 300 fps is producing the same KE as a 500 grain arrow going 250 fps, my problem that I have with that is that with all bows I have shot it takes heavier draw weights to get that 500 grain arrow to get to 250 fps and that is what I am trying to get away from.

I am not talking 150 grain to 200 grain arrows going 350 to 400 fps here. I am talking mid 300 grain arrows going 300 fps. There is a line at about 250 grains that an arrow starts to hold its energy thru a target. it is these arrows that I feel are best suited for killing game.

As far as bad shots. I have made a couple but I still had complete pass-thru with a good blood trail. I have broken shoulders and even got all the way thru a deers and a hogs spine a couple of times. However I don't try to force a shot, if it isn't there I wait for it or I let them go. For years I killed everything I could until my wife got tired of eating deer every night. Since then I have started letting deer walk. Now I hunt for horns and sausage and jerky.

Doc,

congrats on the doe. You make a nice point. It is the setup of the bow that delivers the arrow. If the bow is tuned well, timed correctly, and is delivering an arrow that is spined correctly for the size of broadhead and draw weight of the bow it is a very deadly combination.

CatDoc,

I am willing to bet $100 that YOUR BOW shooting a 500 grain arrow will make more energy than YOUR BOW will with a 300 grain arrow.

The speed will sort itself out (it always decreases with increasing arrow weight.) As long as you use the same bow the KE will increase with increasing arrow weight. This has been true on EVERY bow I have tested. I do not think yours is an exception.

By the way, the heaviest arrow I found was a fish arrow that weighed 1400 grains. Yep, KE went up when I tried it, even though it seems as limp as noodle coming off a 70 or 80# bow.

KE is useless for bowhunting purposes. Dr. Ashby has said that and I totally agree with him. KE is only an equation, it has NOTHING to do with the penetration of an arrow. Momentum is a better calculator for our purposes, but not perfect either, there are just to many other variables. I can state with a certainty that all other things being equal that a heavier arrow will ALWAYS penetrate better on GAME and that there is no point of diminishing returns, i.e. the heavier the arrow the better it will penetrate and there is no such thing as to much penetration. On the first really BIG animal I shot, I discovered that while penetration is not the only thing, if you don't have enough of it, then nothing else is going to matter!

just so we will all know I went to the old arrow box and dug around until I found a heavy one. it is a 2219. I found a 140 grain magnus head. looks like a big lincoln log. total weight was just over 525 grains. just about 8.5 grains per lb. went into the range and shot it through a chronograph a couple of times. It showed 252 both times. so putting that into the KE calculator you are exactly right. I gained 7/10 of a lb. It just hardly seems worth it. Seems like 6 of one half dozen of another. I also ran it through my archers advantage program and the drag on the heavier arrow is quite a bit more and the trajectory is not as good. It will make yardage judgement more important. I would gain less than a pound of KE but would have to give up over 70 fps I am already well over the KE needed and with the slower moving arrow you give the animal more time to move and more time for the wind to blow off the arrow or something else to happen. I would also believe that the size of the shaft would cause more friction causing a decrease in penetration. jmo.

Don,

Just finished reading your DR. Ashby article. and it was very interesting. He has done some very interesting comparisons. Being the skeptic that I am and knowing a thing or two about science. I would question how much of a control group he could have and how the test group varied. As you and I both know no two deer are alike. Some are bigger boned than others fatter, softer, more muscled etc. He also had a different formula for KE than the DR. in my article but they come out to about the same in the end.

He did touch on some things that we have all touched on. Use good equipment, make sure you have perfect arrow flight, use good broadheads, etc.

I would also be interested to know what he believes to be the minimum momentum force needed to penetrate is.

For me he posed more questions than he answered.

CatDoc,

At least Asbby had several hundred animals worth of empirical data to raise questions about. Your reference just said "KE rules, forget about everything else". I'll take Ashby's approach.

As to differences in formulas, apparently somewhere, sometime, some archer printed the erroneous formula for KE with the factor 450240 in it. As an engineer I think this number should be closer to 450436 (just as Ashby does) but the difference is not significant and so many archers use online calculators with the same error embedded in it that I usually give up and use 450240 just to avoid talking about it.

I don't remember Ashby talking about deer. I remember zebras, impala, kudu and other African game in his statistics - so his animal sizes range from South Carolina whitetail size to elk-sized or bigger. But no deer.

He also very plainly recommends a Momentum of .57 or greater for deer-sized game. That needs a 525 grain arrow at 245 fps (70 ft-lbs KE), or your 320 grain arrow at 402 fps. Your 320 grain arrow at 321 fps has a momentum of .456.

By the way, you are the only Mathews owner I know who beats the published spec. Most are only getting 65-67 ft lbs out of their 70# bows with a 350 grain arrow.

As Ashby also points out, drag increases as the square of velocity, so a heavier (slower) arrow with the same momentum will outpenetrate a faster one. So I don't track your comment about "increased drag with the heavier arrow" comment at all.

African countries have actually studied penetration on game (some hired Ashby, some did not), and many of them require a minimum KE using an arrow heavier than a posted minumum.

Example: (Mozambique)
lion leopard buffalo elephant
Bow 31.8 kg 31.8 kg 40.9 kg 43.2 kg
Weight: (70 lb) (70 lb) (80 lb) (95 lb)
Arrow weight: 550 gr 550 gr 750 gr 850 gr


It is interesting to note that South Africa now recommends a minimum arrow weight of 400 grains from a 65# bow even for impala (SC deer).

I'm through preaching now, you can go back to ignoring us "old farts". But I will make another bet with you. I'll bet when you are my age you will be using a heavier arrow. I hate to think about the wounded game between now and then, but hey - we all have to learn our own lessons. If I'm alive by then you can buy me a beer (or change my bedpan .)

DonG
What arrow [carbon] would you recommend with a 125 gr Steel force broadhead.
Assume I will be shooting a 60 to 65 lb compound bow, probably a Mathews.

Don,

Don't worry about my age, If I ever make it to Mason, Oh I will buy you a beer. I may even bring a little homeade wine and we can set around and share stories. This has really turned into more of an argument than I had intended. I realize everyone has their own opinion and beliefs, and I am fine with that. I knew you liked a heavier arrow than I do and I even made that comment in my first post on this thread. I don't know if it is right or wrong there is evidence showing both ways it is just the side of the fence that you set. I had really just intended to give my opinion and some evidence to support it so that ne450 could make an educated decision, but BFR, and I call him that because I am able to come up with some really good acronyms for BFR, wanted to get ugly I wanted to show how rediculous he sounded. In the end, what it amounts to is that I have had very good luck with all of my mathews bows with similar setups and I believe in them with similar setups. However, I will change when something better shows up, or at least something I believe in. The reason that I am getting better KE than most out of my mathews is because I am a 31" draw. Because of that I am 10 to 12 fps faster than most.


NE450,

The heavier the broadhead the stiffer the spine needs to be. The Carbon Express in a 300 should give you more than enough spine and they are tough as nails.

Good luck and Good hunting

CD

CD
Thanks for the info. And to everyone else too. I am writting all this stuff down so when I go to the pro shop I will at least know a little.

I will be doing a lot of stalking pigs on my deer lease. I have shot several with a rifle ar 25 yards and closer. Some of them have a pretty good gristle shield, so I believe in penetration.

Cat, I didn't mean to sound rude! But someone has to explain how a longer draw increases velocity! First, it usually means a longer arrow which is heavier. Second, the bow does not gain weight or speed when the draw length is increased. Now lets see, a 410 gr arrow at 82# has to be going 315 fps to reach 90.3 fp of energy. Kind of unrealistic, lets figure 240 fps for an energy figure of 52.4 fp. Or lets get carried away and shoot for 270 fps with energy of 66 fp. Maybe 290 fps with energy of 76 fp. And again, a 300 gr arrow at 300 fps has only 60# of energy.
I am shooting a 654 gr arrow at 238 fps for an energy of 82 fp. That arrow has MOMENTUM! Which arrow will penetrate better?
No whimps allowed, I am 68 and still shooting 82# or more. I also have 502 archery trophys. I am entirely satisfied hitting pie plates---AT 60 YD'S.
I am with Don in that KE does not penetrate as well as weight and momentum. Seems as if I can hurt you with a fast spitball but not with a slow bowling ball! Take your pick.
Then that 2219 arrow was developing 74# of energy. That is more then the 60# you get with the 300/300 combination. I shot through every deer with a 62# recurve and 2219 shafts so you are wrong again about drag.
It seems as if all you are interested in is trajectory and shooting farther with less range estimation, a true sign of a poor hunter that can't get a deer within range and a 3D shooter. Everyone has a laser range finder these days, why worry about trajectory? I never had a problem pacing off the distances. My average distance for all the deer I killed is 12 yd's! Yes, I killed a bunch past 45 yd's, but killed a whole lot at 8 yd's or less. Gee whiz, I wish my bow shot flatter!
All the advances in technology, strength of bows so they don't break when almost dry firing those light arrows and flat trajectories is entirely due to the 3D sport. I am finding it harder and harder finding the proper hunting arrows since everyone wants light toothpicks so they can hit the foam.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
DonG
What arrow [carbon] would you recommend with a 125 gr Steel force broadhead.
Assume I will be shooting a 60 to 65 lb compound bow, probably a Mathews.

I like the Carbon Express Hunter Select 6075 for the 125 gr tips.You can get the same arrow more cheaply at RedHead Hunter Supreme 350 (look for 12 gpi). I buy the basspro version. Every 60-70# bow I've recommended these for has shot them very well and been easily tuned.

These are 12 grain/inch arrows, relatively heavy. The total arrow will then be around 500 grains for a 28 inch arrow. These will be great for pigs and deer out to 30-35 yards. (They will kill out past 100 yards as far as penetration goes, but 30-35 yards is maximum ethical range for most of us.

If your arrow length is shorter than 28" and you stay at 60# and below, I would consider the 4065 (basspro 250). Mathews and Bowtech bows seem to do well when slightly underspined. I would stay at or above 9 grains/inch shafts under any crcumstances, with a total arrow weight 420 grains or more.

Get plastic vanes for hunting.

As to tuning your bow: for the first timer definitely get a pro to do it, or a truly knowledgeable friend. But only when you can watch and ask questions. Learn how to tune your bow yourself, it will save you mucho grief in the long run. I've picked up new bows with stripped allen heads where the shop "pro" was too stupid. lazy or cheap to replace a worn out allen wrench.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Cat, I didn't mean to sound rude! But someone has to explain how a longer draw increases velocity!

BFR, a longer draw usually does mean more speed with the same draw weight and type of bow.

But I have to say I have never heard of a Mathews Switchback getting any where near 321 fps at 5 gpp, even straight out of the box with a bare string. In hunting trim, with silencers and peep and D-loop you are lucky to get 290 fps at 5 gpp. My brother's only gets 287 fps with a 350 grain arrow, and his draw weight is 74#.

Also, Switchbacks don't come in 31" draw lengths. 30" max. My twin brother and I had to use a longer string loop to get to the 31" position that he needs, but the power stroke is still only 30".

I am sure that somewhere, sometime a Mathews bow "made the number" published for IBO speed. But even the local factory-sponsored pro's bows do not - and they are set up for 3D, not hunting.

Mathews bows have a lot of good qualities - I will never give up my old FeatherMax - but they do give up some speed to get the forgiveness and shootability and insensitivity to mis-tune that they are famous for.

Don,

I do not currently shoot a switchback I am still shooting a LX. It didn't come in a 31" draw either but they used a bumper screwed into the cam to stop the draw. I got a 30" draw at 65% let-off took the bumper out and now I have a 31" 80%. However mathews is announcing a new switchback in January that will be at least a 31" draw and possibly a 32" draw. there are a few out there that were sent to pro shops as demos around the 1st of the month. If you need a longer draw it might be just the ticket. I believe it has 31" axle to axle and 8 1/2" brace hight. I believe the IBO speed on that bow is 318.

BFR,

Just so you know when I was shooting 82 lbs I was shooting a 410 grain arrow 319 fps out of a z-max. at if I remember correctly about 93 lbs of KE. it was the speed bow of the day and without perfect form it was hard to hit a half dollar at 20 yards but I shot through both shoulders of a 4 point at 24 yards from a ground blind. complete pass thru. looked like a rifle shot. He may of actually went down faster than most rifle shots.

I'm done arguing with you. your trophies don't impress me. I more of those damn things than I care to count. Over the last few years I just leave them with the pro shop to give out at the next tourny.

as far as pie plates at 60 yds. I would hope. if you shoot as much as you say you shoud hit inside 3 inches at 60 yds. I don't shoot as much as you I'm sure, but even I am getting 5" groups at 100 yds. I know I know you would never take a shot at 100 yds but on the range why not it is a lot of fun and when you tear up your friends arrow it gives them something to scream about for a few days.

good luck and good hunting

quote:

Originally posted by The Cat Doctor:
Don,

I do not currently shoot a switchback I am still shooting a LX.

Sorry, I was confused by your previous post:

quote:

Originally posted by The Cat Doctor: (June 30, 2005)
I have a shot a switchback pretty extensivly for a few months now and you can't go wrong. I trade bows about every year, I always say that I'm not going to but mathews makes such major improvements every year that I can't help but trade.

The Switchback sells for about 800 american dollars. but well worth it.

321 fps is even more impressive out of an LX than a Switchback.

Don, not always. The cams are larger on the longer draw bows but do not impart a lot more speed due to needing a longer and stiffer arrow, or turning down the weight.I have a Browning Midas with a 30" draw and my friend has the same bow at 32". I get 30 fps more from mine and he doesn't like that fact. Some bows might give a little more speed, but 10 fps means nothing in the field. On the average this will give you 4# to 7# more energy depending on arrow weight. My heavy arrow will give me 7# more but the 300/300 combo will only add 4#. A lighter arrow reduces this even more. So the fact is, reducing arrow weight to gain speed really cuts into the KE of the arrow. By increasing both arrow weight and speed, the penetration and KE goes way up. Most bows today are very efficient and can drive heavy arrows very fast, much more then is needed to kill any animal. But going to a light arrow to tweak a few more fps will not kill better. For one thing, tuning for a lighter arrow means turning down the weight. A negative situation. The reason for mechanical heads because guys can't tune a regular head. The problem is that mechanicals need more power to penetrate and putting them on a light arrow defeats the whole thing.
I have a Browning Mirage, Midas and Maxim Hunter that are fairly old but I will never need better bows. All of these cast heavy arrows very fast. That is the secret to penetration, heavy arrows as fast as they can be shot and still stay in perfect tune. But then again, I would rather have a bow shooting a perfect arrow at 220 fps then one shooting 300 fps with the arrow waving every which way and tuning all year trying to straighten out the flight, or buying lighter and lighter heads, again losing penetration.
This is a losing battle with the speed and light arrow group. I predict all of them will eventually move up in arrow weight as they gain experience. Flat trajectory is their only god! What is better, a heavy, slower arrow punching through all it hits, or a toothpick that can stop dead when the slightest resistance is met?
I still marvel at the shows on TV where the guy strains until his eyes are about to pop out drawing his bow only to have six inches of penetration in the chest cavity of a white tail. Not my cup of tea, I would trash those arrows. Imagine shooting a cape buf with that stuff!
I read all you post and you have a tremendous understanding, as do a few others, of what it takes to penetrate an animal. We can only try to pass on what we have learned. I really try not to ruffle anyones feathers and respect most bow hunters but get frustrated with book figures.

Don, you said that the most accurate and forgiving bows give up speed for that trait. How right you are! The most accurate bows are never the fastest. Having a bow that takes absolutly perfect form to hit anything will just not work in the field where you never know what position you will be in for the shot.

I wonder if Cat has a chronograph?

Don,

I had traded an outback for the switchback last winter. I traded my switchback off back in Aug. It shot great but I felt like I was bound up. the shorter draw length just didn't work for me. I had traded off my lx a couple of months before for a 17 hmr and a 22 target pistol. The pro shop still had it so I went back to it. Now that they have the 31" switchback I will probably go back to the switchback. I should mention that I got the same speed out of a 30" switchback that I am getting out of the 31" lx.

Bfr,

I do have a Chronograph. I came across one cheap a few yeas ago. It is not the fanciest thing arond but it works nicely for what I do with it.

I have never shot mechanical heads in the woods. I shot them on the range once or twice and didn't like them so went back to muzzy. I have never had a problem tuning fixed blade heads.

Cat, I hope I didn't rub you the wrong way. I wasn't trying to. I understand your point of view but everything has to be put on the table for evaluation. I did try the fast stuff and was not happy with those few times it did not do what it was supposed to do.
The Muzzy is a great head but I have not bought any more because I break them hitting the ground after passing through deer. Gets expensive! I have driven the point back over the blades after the threads stripped. Every single one I have had was broken in that manner. It will stand up to any hit on an animal, but not the ground if there is the smallest stone there. I sometimes get 10" of ground on the pass through. I have stuck them in tree roots so deep that even cutting the root and using a puller, I have broken them.

BFR,

Same here. I have tried several heads and have yet to find one that would shoot through rock. The muzzy just preforms better for me at least the first time. I have tried wasp and thunder head and they are about the same as far as preformance. You couldn't run fast enough to give me another tri-loc and with the speed that I am shooting the old 2 blade bear and magnus heads are out of the question. I did look at a 1 piece head here a while back. That were suppose to be cut on contact and very tough, but they were more expensive as muzzy and you couldn't change blades if one broke. So I will just continue to dance with the one who brought me.

good luck and good hunting

BFR,

I don't have a "tremendous understanding", but I try to pay attention to those that do. Guys like Ashby and loboga that have gone after the big boys, and guys like you who've shot a bunch of critters.

It only took one shot with a mech broadhead for me to realize that almost all that's written about bowhunting gear nowadays is by somebody that wants to sell you something or by somebody that got freebies from somebody who wants to sell you something, or by somebody who swallowed the bait!

(How was that for a sentence!)

I shot one deer with a bow before moving to Ohio. In the last ten years I have gotten 1-3 deer a year with the bow. So that's less than 20 deer with a bow. Not even close to your numbers, but plenty enough to have learned from my mistakes!

If something doesn't change, this looks like another 1 doe year.

I haven't hunted much this season, only been out about 8 times and only for a few hours in the morning or evening. I have 5 deer so far and might shoot another for a neighbor. I shot two with bows and three with revolvers. I have passed on bucks because we are out of balance with our herd, way too many doe. Better eating anyway.

Well I have not got my bow yet, just ben to busy.

I did shoot a bow some when I was in Idaho in June/July before the fires ran us out.

Still been doing some research, looked at the new light weight Mathews bow [Denali??] while traveling but did not shoot it.

Several people have recommended Slick Trick BH's, stating they fly great and kill real well.

Ya'll have confinced me to go with carbon shafts.

Still unsure about sideways pins or verticle pins.
I am leaning more toward a 3 pin sight as it seems less cluttered to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Don_G:
You will see a lot of people talk about KE on their bows, including me. But there is no such thing as "knock down power" with a bow - penetration is king.

I like to know the KE of my bow because a simple formula lets you then predict your arrow speed and Momentum for any arrow weight. (The KE of a bow slowly increases with arrow weight, maybe 10% from IBO (5 gr/lb) to IBO 9 (gr/lb)).

But in my opinion - and those of many experienced hunters - Momentum is what gives you penetration with an arrow. Momentum increases with increasing arrow weight - that's why I like to shoot more towards the IBO-weight arrows. I like to shoot arrows in the 500-550 grain range for hunting. That's pretty heavy.

Your arrows also need to be flying true. No spiralling/fishtailing/porpoising allowed. All that momentum needs to be directly in line behind the head at the point of impact, to shove your knife home!

I'm not big on mechanical wheelbows but I do love archery and I have hunted with recurves, longbows and selfbows since my youth.

One of my pards is in-lawed to a Mathews pro and he also regulary hunts with Mr. Adams. As a result, my pard always has the latest, fastest and lightest Mathews and all the stuff that goes along with it. He always pushes the envelope with his archery tackle and his arrow speeds and calculated KE#s are impressive.

With all that said, I have longbows and recurves that only shoot moderate speeds with turkey feather fletched cedar shafts, two-blade bastard filed broadheads, weighing 9 1/2 to 10 grains per pound draw that easily out penetrate his laser fast carbons. One of their sponsors is Field Logic and they use Block 4x4s and Glendale Bucks to stop their high speed carbon hunting arrows. My cedar hunting arrows nearly sink to the fletching and the head will pass the width of the Glendale "Full Rut". His arrow was stopped cold by a deers spine shooting straight down from his stand. I had a near identical shot and my slower cedar went straight through to the brisket.

I don't see KE#s as being that important in a hunting arrow. KE gives too much value to arrow speed and too little value to arrow weight. You need a certain amount of speed for things to work but beyond that I give more value to arrow weight, broadhead design and proper blade sharpness over speed. The only gain I see for giving up weight for speed is to flatten the trajectory. I've never seen the advatage to this at normal hunting distances. Even at longer distances a skilled archer can hit a mark with the slower/heavier arrow which will retain more momentum and probably still outpenetrate the fast/light arrow.

GVA

quote:

Originally posted by chain:
I have bow hunted for 30+ years. One thing I have learned is you never stop tweeking, even if it is just a little. I have only owned 3 bows in this time, a Bear Whitetail, (for one season), and 2 Oneidas. Is Oneida the best bow? I don't know, but with my long draw length, it is the best I have shot. You need to shoot alot of them and shoot them in different situations, sitting, kneeling, with light clothes and with heavy clothes. As far as accessories go,something new and improved comes out everyday. Good Luck.

chain,

You make me feel very old. You are the first archer from michigan with over 30yrs experience I've heard of who only has owned one Bear bow which is a compound. I'm sorry you missed out on The Great Fred Bear and Bear Archery during the Grayling years. Most everyone I know who lived through that has at least one of his Kodiak versions on the wall or stashed in a closet. I have a nice 12point along with the Kodiak used to take it during my youth on the wall over my shoulder. I don't remember what I had for dinner last week but I clearly remember the sights, sounds and smells of that hunt. On that day and at that moment, I was Fred Bear as I loosed my arrow from his bow.

GVA

NE 450,

If you haven't picked a pro shop yet, you might check with Precision Archery in Bridge City, Texas. A bit out of the way, but they are very good. Just don't let them talk you into the super light weight arrows they are so fond of.

The WB rest is good for the most part, but it can be a bit noisy, especially in a dusty or sandy environment. Cost me an eland this past June when he heard the draw.