Talking with Canuck the other night we got on the topic of string jumping and arrow speed.

I am considering trying out my 880 grain "Cape Buff" arrows on the local deer population, if they will cooperate. Canuck was wondering if that'd give them a better opportunity to "jump the string."

Even though the heavier arrows are at 225 fps rather than 275 fps (586 grain) I do not think it will make a material difference in string jumping.

Here's my thought process layed out (in my usual gruesome detail!)

Normal human reaction time is about 0.10 seconds. I don't know what a deer's reaction time is, but let's assume for the sake of argument that they are twice as fast as humans or 0.05 seconds.

Visual rection time:
If a deer reacts to seeing the string or arrow move upon release (not likely, in my estimation), then the total Time of Flight (TOF) of the arrow determines the time available to react.

For my two arrows the TOF works out like this:

586 gr 275 fps 10yds/0.11 secs, 20yds/0.22 secs, 30yds/0.33 secs.
880 gr 225 fps 10yds/0.13 secs, 20yds/0.27 secs, 30yds/0.40 secs.

If the deer starts his reaction based on sound, then the Audio Reaction Time is the difference between the Time of Flight and the time it takes the sound of the release to reach the deer. Here's the Audio Reaction Time for my two arrows:

586 gr 275 fps 10yds/0.08 secs, 20yds/0.16 secs, 30yds/0.25 secs.
880 gr 225 fps 10yds/0.11 secs, 20yds/0.21 secs, 30yds/0.32 secs.

It is easy to see that even a human would have to respond at anything beyond 10 yards, and the deer has TWO reaction times available even at ten yards. (The same statement is true even if the arrow is going 320 fps!)

So my conclusion is that if the deer has a "programmed" startle response of leaping, then he will have plenty of time to jump the string with any achieveable arrow speed. If his initial response is to look at the sound and make a conscious decision to jump, then you are probably OK out to 30 yards. Beyond that, well, even my ex-wife can make up her mind to step out of the way in 1/2 a second!

The above seems to jive with the slow-motion videos I have seen of arrow strikes. Either the deer just stands there or it has plenty of time to begin a leap causing a high hit at close ranges (crouching at the start of the leap), or a low hit at longer ranges (beginning to move up).

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

Thoughts?

Shoot them while they're walking.

It makes a tremendous difference IMO.

I used a Bow that shot in the 220s w/ heavy arrows and 230s w/ lighter arrows and the deer could drop out of the way like it was nothing. The way I overcame that problem was hunting high and waiting until the deer got really close to my tree (say 10 or less yards). Then, when they ducked it didn't matter due to the steep angle.

When I stepped upto the 250 fps range w/ a new bow I could tell a slight difference so I increased my comfortable range alittle but, still had some deer ducking my arrows or getting high hits. I then started to focus on speed and quiteness. I was using a Pearson Bow and had several Limbsaver gismos added to it. That bow shot 275 and was extremely quite, in fact, I've never heard a bow that was as quite as that one. The deer ducking issue virtually disappeared w/ that bow set-up and I slammed some bucks out to 30 yards.

Now, I moved up to a Bowtech that's shooting 290-295 and I think "String Jumping" will not be all that much of a problem w/ this set-up. I still try to aim low in the chest just in case.

I have come to the conclusion that Sound is the most important Factor in String jumping but, Speed is also very important. If you can get a speedy bow to shoot quitely, you'll have a deadly set-up. W/ all of the Sims products on the market, it's pretty easy to make a bow pretty quiet.

Reloader

Don,

Your calculations aren't false. Very theoritical but one cannot argue.
With my limited experience, only once a (roe)deer jumped the string.It turned at a right angle when at 28m (30 yards, I know it's too far, but I believed it was closer)
It resulted my arrow entered under his anus and opened its belly, the death occured in 50m.

You can calculate as long as You want, game beyond 10 yards has the virtual capacity of jumping the string.How can You explain wild boars never jump the string. Foxes sometimes, but often stay amazed.

Speaking of human being (such are considered the exs in France) : has it happened You stand close to a target and hear the coming arrows. Have You noted the vane-fletched arrows are noisy and that it seems one could have time to avoid arrows?

Jean,

I agree. At anything over ten yards a whitetail deer is capable of jumping the string.

When in Okinawa many years ago I saw a karate demonstration where a sensei was slapping arrows aside before they could hit him. It was a traditional bow with heavy arrows, so they were probably going 150 fps or less.

I have always thought that feather fletches were louder than vanes. My vanes are only loud if they are stretched and wrinkled from too many trips through the target.

Reloader,

Any chance that the older "220 fps bow" was also louder?

Since I got my very quiet Feathermax 8 years ago I have not had nearly the problem that I used to have with string jumping. Only one buck has jumped the string with that bow. He was at 20 yards and I was using a light arrow (GoldTip 22 UltraPro) at 280 fps. I usually used a 520-540 grain arrow that the bow would push at 230 fps and had no trouble at all on many does and small bucks.

The Darton I had before the Feathermax was both slow and loud - a very poor combination.

Intersting discussion and observations. I try to follow Reloader's idea by setting the stand high and shooting down.

I had a really nice 8pt a couple years ago sneak up on me and I first saw him 5 ft or so from the tree I had the stand mounted on. For some reason, my release was closed and when I opened it, it snapped open, he heard me and he crouched and jumped 10' almost sideways and ran off never giving me a chance to even draw the bow....it startled me a lot when he did it. The release made a clicking sound, but it certainly wasn't loud. I think he got a whiff of me just before the time he heard the click and his muscles were already "cocked" to react. That was the fastest reaction I've ever seen from a deer....they are truely MAGIC!!

BTW, my oldest son killed him during ML season.

This is an interesting thread, but IMO it doesn't matter how fast or slow you bow is going, a deer will react to the noise of the shot. And, no bow, no matter how fast can overcome a deer's reaction time. Bill Winke did a study a few years ago in one of the Bowhunting Magazine's. It compared the speed of sound versus arrow speed. By a huge margin, sound travels faster than any bow is ever capable of doing. That being said, even a bow shooting 400fps would not be fast enough to beat the reaction time of an alerted deer. The article went on to say that shooting unalerted game with a quiet bow was the key to harvesting more game. They also suggested that you should aim at the lower one third of the deer's chest no matter what the range. By aiming low, if the deer does react to the noise of the shot, they will drop in preparation to "spring". The shot "in theory" would then hit the deer in the center of the chest or be a high entrance wound. The heavy arrow mentioned above should actually be "better" for shooting deer as it will absorb more energy from the bow, thus making the bow quieter. Assuming youve quieted your bow down as much as possible. A barely audible thump of a quiet bow shooting a heavy arrow would produce a much less violent reaction than a 280fps bow that sounds like a .22 going off.

phew....Im done

Hugh

hughiam, your are mostly correct in your answer. However I have been over this many times. It is not the loudness of the sound but the frequency. A bow can be very loud and if the sound is in the low fequency range, it will not scare a deer. A bow that sounds dead quiet but puts out a high frequency that humans can't hear will turn a deer inside out. This is a major problem with fast bows and light arrows.
Gunfire will not scare deer either, but a bullet breaking the sound barrier as it goes past them is a different story as is a bullet hitting close to them.
Trying to make a bow faster to try and beat a deer's reflexes only amplifies the problem and raises the frequency. Anyone should know that an arrow would have to go faster then sound to prevent deer from reacting.
Hunters are better off with a bow shooting heavy arrows at 200 fps then light arrows at 300.

Yeah, what they said....

Opening day tomorrow. All I have located is does, fawns and two-year old bucks, but I reckon they'll make a turd!

Good luck, all.

Good luck Don,

Every game is open here, but the end of august and september are not good. Even the stag's rut is bad this year.
I am supposed to hunt sunday and monday evenings. Yes, I'll do it for the fun of meeting my partners. I don't want to kil a mum roe-deer or her young now. Perhaps in January.

Good luck

I have seen only a few young bucks around here. There are doe's and fawns all over the place. Our herd is way out of balance. It looks like I will be leaving the bucks alone this year and getting as many doe as I can. I will see 14 to 17 females for every buck. In previous years I would have as many as 7 bucks under my fruit trees but this year, there has been none. The game dept has increased the number of deer we can take this year and might allow limited hunting in the Harpers Ferry National park because of road kills. We will see if they use their heads and reduce the herd.

Interesting thread. I've talked to a lot of longbow shooters who make the point that a longbow doesn't have to perform as well as other bows because of the quietness of it. I know that when I take the whiskers off the string of my recurve I almost can't stand to shoot if because of the snap--I've grown accustomes to a quieter shot. I hope to get a longbow in the near future and try it out next year.

the chef

The only way to be absolutely sure a deer will not "jump" your string is to arrow it while it's laying down .

I'm am not totally joking. I have actually accomplished that very thing twice.

I have had deer "jump" the string with bows as fast as 245fps... several times.

These are my observations.

1. They don't actually jump. More correctly every single time this has happened to me, the deer drop suddenly and the arrow goes over their backs.

2. Areas that receive the highest bowhunting pressure have the "jumpiest" deer.

3. Letting the deer get real close (within 15yds), actually increases the odds they will "jump" the shot. The proximaty of the bowshot is louder and more startling to the deer at closer ranges. The angle of shooting down at closer animals is more extreme and the vital area can actually be smaller. Out past 25yds a well silenced bow is much less alarming and the vital area exposed is often bigger.

4. You cannot completely silence a bow. You can reduce it's shot noise significantly and you should. I have never seen one that was so quiet that it was practically inaudible. Deer hear better than humans anyday of the week. So don't get overconfident with the quietness of your bow. Count on deer being able to hear it. How they react to it has alot to do with the pressure the area receives and how much they have been bowhunted.

5. Aim for the lowest part of the vital area you feel comfortable with. I submit you will be amazed at how often the arrow hits higher than you aimed. This is always the safest bet.

One thing missing from Don's calculations is that once the deer starts to react the actual movement of the animal takes some time as well. Since the animal isn't pulling itself towards the ground, it is actually "falling" out of the way. Takes about .2 secs to fall 7.75" plenty of movement to cause a miss.

BigGuy, deer do not drop to avoid arrows! Any standing animal can't jump until it bends it's legs. Let me see you jump from a standing position.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
BigGuy, deer do not drop to avoid arrows! Any standing animal can't jump until it bends it's legs. Let me see you jump from a standing position.

Can you bend your legs without dropping?

The normal assumtion on this topic is that the astring noise if the sole factor involved in "String Jump".

I offer that other "signals" from the bowhunter come into play. Movement, Draw noise, even the hunters breathing. I believe deer in particular are already in a state of danger(or at least alertness) prior to string jumping.

The buck I shot last october didn't move a bit on release, and I was lucky the shot was right on because I forgot to aim slightly low. My "old Pearson" shot only 211 fps but the buck was so calm that he walked right in front of me with out even testing the wind. I think the big thing was that right accross the trail from me is an old apple tree and I drew, aimed, and fired while he was eating the little apples. If at all possible that is the time to make noise. Try it yourself. with your back turned, have someone else draw and fire a bow while your crunching into the apple (or accorn, or whatever). My father always told me to time your shot to the animals actions.

Big Guy, your right in that they must drop to bend their legs, but they are not "ducking an arrow". I have read many stories that the guy claims the deer ducked his arrow. They must be awful smart to know there is a stick coming towards them. This is just a normal reaction to start running and a normal response to certain noise. I just hate the saying that a deer ducked the shot.
NB, thats IS the best time to shoot, when a deer is chewing. Want to hear real noise? Listen to a deer chewing hickory nuts.

quote:

Reloader,

Any chance that the older "220 fps bow" was also louder?

Yes Don, It was louder and you ar right that is the primary reason I had to aim low w/ that set-up to compensate for their reaction.

Speed does definitely matter. I tend to rely on my expereinces w/ game over the other theories of reaction time.

My primary reasoning for my Speed theory is from the results I've had in the last few years w/ these new super fast bows. For instance, I had a Pearson that was absolutely whisper quite w/ heavy Beeman carbons launched at ~250 fps, w/ that setup I had a few deer drop out of the arrows path even though I held mid deer(aprrox 15-20 yards). Due to that raw experience, I went and purchased some light carbons, cranked the bow down and increased the speed to 275+. That little 25 fps increase made my bow shoot much flatter but, it also made it louder(still very quiet but louder). I hunted the same tree as the misses occurred from and I made 4 consective kills in a row and none of them moved at all(8, 23, 12, & 30 yards were the approx distances). I sold that bow and bought a Bowtech thats shooting somewhere around 295 w/ my hunting arrows and just last evening I shot a doe looking straight at me, I was busted, but, at full draw. I let that arrow fly and that hefer never moved a bit at 10-12 yards.

I do believe that sound is the major factor but, Speed is crucial as well. Even w/ fast bows deer react and move some before tha arrow strikes most of the time but, knock 70 fps off of that flight time and tell me how much more a deer falls. That small amount could be the difference in a shot through the lungs or over the lungs.

Good Luck this season

Reloader

I certainly agree the deer has no idea there is an arrow coming towards it when it reacts to shot noise. Deer just naturally go into this "ready" mode by quickly bending their legs when they are alarmed. I was not trying to imply that deer consciously duck arrows. I certainly don't believe that deer know what arrows are, or even that they associate shot noise with an arrow.

I was only trying to point out the following. If you launch an arrow at a relaxed animal and it becomes alarmed. The first thing it will do is go into this "ready" mode. The end result is the vital target you aimed for will be significantly lower when the arrow reachs it than when you launched the arrow.

The speed at which the animal can bend it's legs and ready itself for a jump is limited from the time it begins to react by acceleration due to gravity itself. If you break a relaxed deer's reaction to shot noise into two parts. The deer must ready itself to jump and then actually jump.

As Boss Kongoni pointed out several things can cause the deer to go into this "ready" mode. Prior to the shot itself. At this point, the sequence of events for a deer reacting to shot noise is in the second phase. The jumping speed is limited by the strength and agility of the animal itself. This is the least predictable phase of all. Regardless, the animal's acceleration up due to jumping will be faster than it's bending legs phase. This builds a strong case for shooting at only relaxed animals. The suggestion of shooting while the animal is chewing, is a good one.

If the animal chooses to react. Aiming low in the vitals of a relaxed animal maximizes the time the vitals stay in the path of the flight of the arrow.

quote:

If the animal chooses to react. Aiming low in the vitals of a relaxed animal maximizes the time the vitals stay in the path of the flight of the arrow.

IMO, that's some of the best advice we could give novice bow hunters.

I've got a lifesized poster target of a deer that I place in front of my normal target just so I can pratice at those bottom of the heart shots. Those 3-D targets are pretty good for this as well.

Reloader

Big Guy, NOW your talking. That was the best answer of all of them and I am on your side.
As to some of the other answers about speed of the arrow making the deer go down less before the arrow reaches them, I have my doubts. I still assert that the frequency of the bow is important and if your bow is very fast but makes only low frequency noise, the deer will not move or move as fast. What I am saying is that if your bow makes a high frequency sound, the deer will move faster and even though your arrow is faster, the deer will still drop as low before the arrow reaches it. This whole question hinges on what your bow sounds like to the deer and not how fast the arrow is. If your bow does not scare deer at 300 fps, you'r not going to have a problem.
If your bow still makes deer drop before the arrow reaches it, even though the deer dropped less, it is time to look at your equipment and to get rid of the higher frequencies.
There are still deer that are on edge and you can't do anything about. Some deer will come unwound with a tree branch falling, a gust of wind in the trees or even an apple falling. Each deer is an individual and each is different. Never base your experience on one deer not moving and another reaching for the moon. This is out of our control! Maybe if we fed deer some booze!!!!!

In a nutshell, for me, the faster the bow that I've shot, I've not lost one deer or had it jump the string.

My old Hoyt Provantage Impulse from the early 90's shot about 215-220 fps. I had deer jump the string all the time.

My Mathews shoots about 280-ish. I cannot recall ever missing a deer since I've owned it.

Doc,

I had the same experience when I moved up to the feathermax. No more string jumping. However, I was still shhooting my 540 grain arrows, and the speed of that combination is still only 230 fps. So I think it was the sound that changed when I got the Feathermax.

I sure wish I could try one of my 900 grain/220 fps arrows on a deer. All I have to do is get them to cooperate!

All I really know for sure is that every shot is different. I reckon that's what makes it interesting!

Good luck to all.

Doc & Don - Was it REALLY the faster bow, OR have you learned more about deer & hunting and unknowingly eliminated those noises & signals that spoked your deer in the 1st place?

The older I get my bows are getting SLOWER. I also don't push myself to make a shot either. Maybe those grey hairs count for something?

It seems to me that most of the string jumpers were already alert for some reason. I just don't hear about to many feeding deer spooking.

quote:

It seems to me that most of the string jumpers were already alert for some reason. I just don't hear about to many feeding deer spooking.

Boss Kongi,

I certainly agree w/ you on that, most of the string jumpers are walking on their tip-toes in the first place but, I have had the occasional feeding deer drop alittle too. Some deer are just plain fast and spooky heck, I imagine if we lived in the wild and had to worry about predators, we'd probably be pretty quick to flinch as well.

Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Kongoni:
Doc & Don - Was it REALLY the faster bow, OR have you learned more about deer & hunting and unknowingly eliminated those noises & signals that spoked your deer in the 1st place?

I'm not certain, but my string today has almost an identical appearance as did my old Hoyt bows I used to shoot: Peep sight, Peep turner, and 2 silencers. The only difference is a nocking loop.

I've killed a lot more deer with a bow that some hunters see in a lifetime, and yes, most were Does or scrub bucks, but now and then I got a nice buck.

I'd have to say, it's all different, but I'm confident that the faster bow does play a role. I've never changed where I aim.

Hi Don,
At 80 or 90 yards they can't hear the string.
Dave