Last night I watched a video on elk hunting. Some of the hunts were bow hunts with the guide calling in the elk for the hunter. On nearly all of the shots the elk ducked as the hunter released the arrow. I noticed that the elk was usually looking at the hunter because the guide was calling to the elk to bring it in (so the elk knew where the sound was coming from) and he also called to the elk to get the elk to stop moving so the hunter could get a shot.

Obviously it would be best to stalk in and take a shot at an elk totally unaware of the hunters presence. I assume the elk would be much less likely to duck as the hunter released an arrow. But it seems one usually has to call to bring the elk in (I have never hunted elk during the rut or with archery gear so I do not really know how often one can just stalk in on an elk and shoot it without needing to do any calling). I will this year only be able to shoot a spike elk so my odds are slim but I will give it a try.

I have heard it said that you do not want to take a shot with an arrow if the animal is nervous or aware of your presence. How do you avoid that if you have to call the elk in to you? Also how often does an elk duck upon arrow release? Should one purposefully aim low? If so how many inches? Thanks, Bruin.

One way is to position the caller upwind from the shooter. "In theory" the elk will go to the caller and the shooter does their thing as it walks past. Obviously scent control is important. I suppose a decoy would help a lot also in order to capture the elks attention. I have only decoyed deer, but will definately decoy moose this year. I talked to a damned good archery guide/caller who was amazed how well moose will decoy. I don't know about elk though. Also a lot of shooters will use a treestand....seems like a lot of hassle to me though, but like I say I haven't shot elk.

the chef

Bruin, there is only one reason for animals to duck (they are not really ducking the arrow, but are bending their legs to leap.) and that is a high frequency noise from the bow. Modern bows are very heavily pre-loaded and make noise. Add to this shooting too light of an arrow and it makes it worse. I am not talking about the sound you hear but the sound humans can't hear. That is why there is so much research and new silencing products on the market now. The smart people have figured it out and are making money to provide us with quality products to kill that sound.
I have stalked and tracked many deer that I shot when they were standing there looking at me. None of them moved until my arrow went through them. The result of a strong bow and very heavy arrows plus a quiet bow.
Remember that a bow can be very noisy and not scare animals because lower frequencies do no harm. Only the high frequencies are bad and you won't hear it. Test your bow by shooting at squirrels on the ground. If it jumps the string, you will have trouble on big game. Thats the time to buy some better silencers or go to a heavier arrow to dampen the limbs.
Some bow quivers and sights will transmit high freqs to animals also.

Bruin,

I shoot Ohio deer that jumped the string very badly with a crossbow.

With my Mathews I have only seen it with a buck who was so alert he was trembling before I shot.

My bow is very quiet - probably because I use heavy arrows - RedHead Carbon Maxx camo. These shafts weigh 12 grains per inch (even though the box says 10), resulting in a 547 grain arrow weight when I use a 125 grain broadhead.

I'd use a good 2 blade broadhead for elk - not the Muzzies I use and trust for deer.

Don, thats strange. I am from Ohio originally and killed 4 deer with a PSE Foxfire crossbow. None jumped the string. That was one loud machine.
Some deer that are really keyed up will jump when a feather hits the ground. Nothing says every deer will hold still so it happens once in a while no matter how good your setup.
This is why I don't like light, fast arrows because it makes the frequency higher and really limits penetration. There is not an arrow or bow made that can beat a deer's reflexes. With laser rangefinders there is no need for speed unless it is a heavy arrow going fast. Those toothpicks over 300 fps are for the 3D range. They are not good hunting arrows. Watch the videos on the outdoor programs and see the miserable penetration some of those guys get with perfect chest hits. A good setup should penetrate a deer from any which way no matter what is hit.
I once shot a deer facing me with it's head turned looking to it's right. My arrow went through the neck, entered the shoulder and came out the belly between it's hams. It was stuck 6" in the hard ground. The Muzzy was broken from hitting the ground and it drove the point back into the blades. The point was actually cut where the three blades were.
Another deer ducked when I shot and my arrow went through the shoulder blade, spine and cut the ball joint in half in the opposite leg. The vanes were in the center of the deer and the force knocked her sideways off her feet. The arrow stuck in the ground and the deer slid down the shaft. 2419 shafts and Snuffer heads. So, with the right hunting setup, even a bad hit from the deer moving can still kill. A light fast arrow would have just stopped in the shoulder blade no deeper then the point.
I now have roughly 355 deer kills and about 225 were with bows. Kind of losing count in my old age! I have used it all, from 45# Wing recurves to 82# compounds and I know what works.
Another bad thing about fast, light arrows is that on a quartering shot, they can actually deflect off a rib instead of driving in. Yes, I have seen it happen!

Interesting observations regarding arrow weight/speed. Here's a question- I shoot a 50lb recurve with 2117's and 2 blade broadhesds. With this set up would you consider any shots other than double lungs on deer. What about frontal shots, or any others you might consider? Is there anything comparable to the Texas heart shot with a bow?

thanks

the chef

Calgary, due to the weight of your bow, that is a good setup. Chest shots and slight quartering shots will do the trick. You should get pass throughs on good shots. Shoulder blades are another story though and I would avoid any contact with them. Frontal shots are always iffy unless you can put the arrow exactly right. You will also have no luck with the Texas heart shot. I could do it but it would be very messy. With the power my bow generates with a heavy arrow, I sometimes wish the arrow would stop before going the full length of a deer and making a mess. I confess to taking shots with them that I would never attempt with a lighter bow and a lighter arrow, such as a deer facing or quartering towards me. Leg bones just shear off if hit and the arrow keeps going. I have shot through a deers chest and cut off the offside leg like it wasn't there.
I have always tried to get pass throughs because they kill faster and blood trails are enormous if you ever have to track. An arrow stuck halfway in a deer blocks a lot of the entry hole and makes tracking very tough. Hunting from a tree stand where the entry hole has to be a little high makes it worse if there is no hole on the other side.
That also brings up the point of some of these tiny broadheads on the market today. They will lose deer and double or triple the tracking to find some of the deer.
I am glad you use decent heads.

Don, I just weighed one of my arrows. They weigh 651 grs. and I use an 82# Browning Midas, a Mirage and a Maxim Hunter. Either one of these bows gives me over 80 ft pounds of energy.
I am 68 and don't know how much longer I will be able to do it, but have no problems with the weight now. I don't expect most archers to pull this much. It sounds like you have a very good setup too and I would stick with it. Lighter bows are very effective and very accurate with the proper arrow. I just don't like those very light things or the 90 and 100 gr. broadheads.
Arrows are like bullets, the bigger the game or the more penetration needed, the heavier the bullet you would chose. Why then, do some guys keep going lighter and lighter when it comes to arrows? The laws of physics have not changed as far as I know.

bfrshooter,

See my thread on Cape Buff arrows Cape Buff Gear

I am posting some new information today.

Don, very good information. I just wish more hunters would listen to it. Many think deer don't require penetration or heavy arrows but would have no problem going to a heavy arrow for a buf or elephant. I say it is important no matter what the game.

Yep, I like the 12 grains/inch arrows for hunting. For deer anything over 450 grains with a 125 Muzzy or similar is pretty good medicine unless you hit the shoulder blade going in. Then you'll wish you'd used a 2 blade broadhead and a heavier arrow. I do like the 125 Muzzy for deer.

I'm going to try some setups with 575 grain arrows for elk, and may just standardize on it for deer as well. Using glue-in/glue-on adapters and 145 grain Grizzly broadheads and 12 gpi shafts it works up well balanced.

I like the Muzzy too but don't buy them any more. They work great on animals but I broke every one I had shooting through deer. They break in the ground after going through. The threads in the little point strip and drive the point into the blades.
I use Snuffers, Thunderheads and the Cabella's head. Never broke any of these, just change blades or re-sharpen them. I have bent in the blades on the Snuffer after going through every bone on a deer but it could still be used in a pinch. Lots of good heads out there now but the prices scare me being on pension and SS.

Gentlemen,

I haven't shot nearly as many deer as you folks, I think 53 with a bow. I used Easton 2117 and a 2 blade cut on contact Bear 125 gr for years and tried carbon arrows 2 years ago and have killed 5 deer with them using the same Bear broadhead. Their weight is around 375 grains and I shoot them with a Martin Magnum set a 53 lbs. All 5 deer have been shoot-thrus and quick kills with heart, lung and liver hits at 10 - 30 yds. I seem to be getting good performance from the arrows and the bow as set up, but from what you folks are mentioning, I'm way light on arrow weight.

I only ever had one wounded deer and she was shot in the spine from almost directly overhead. She went down with her hind legs paralyzed and I shot her again in the ribs and she died within 5 minutes from lung damage.

Do you folks really believe 450 gr or over is needed for deer??

If you take nothing but broadside shots and your deer never jump the string and you never miss your point of aim, then any weight arrow will do.

I'm thinking that the old AMO standard of 9 grains per pound of pull was no accident. I think for deer I'd use the heaviest arrow I could get to/near 240 fps.

However, I have used 430-480 grain arrows from my 65# FeatherMax with good success on deer for several years. The key is a good fixed-blade broadhead (preferably 2 blade like you use.)

This discussion started on elk and has wandered some. I'm thinking 730-850 grains right now for Cape Buffalo, which is light by some opinions!

I haven't kept track of how many deer I've killed with a bow - but it's nowhere near 53!!! Keep using what obviously works for you.

Thanks Don!!

The main reason I changed from Alum to Carbon was flater trajectory. I know they don't have the potential to break bones like a heavier arrow, but they seem to penetrate very well. I had a hard time convincing myself that carbon was worth a damn to begin with, but my son got me a dozen for my birthday (Feb) and I had to try them. They shot very well and I was hooked at that point on light arrows. Chances are I will never hunt a buff but I agree it would certainly take a heavier arrow than I throw now!! A friend of mine has a white (not albino) buck on his property and I look forward to bow season in a month or so since I'm retired and he is not...I want that deer along with 20 other people!!!

Thanks again for the info!!

Lowrider 49,

Carbon does not have to mean light. I look for the 12 grains per inch hunting arrows made by most carbon arrow manufacturers for deer. I'm using the BassPro RedHead Carbon Supreme Hunters for deer right now (there's a store nearby.) They weighed 12 gpi two years ago, I got a dozen arrows this year for my brother (my old ones are still good) and they weighed 11.75 gpi.

This gives me 520-550 grains total arrow weight depending on which vanes, nocks, inserts, wraps etc. that I use. They will weigh almost exactly what your 2117 aluminum arrows weighed, but be a lot tougher - which is why I use carbon arrows. If they don't break they are still straight - but if two aluminum arrows rub against each other one or both is usually ruined.

Why not use the arrow weight you have 48 successes with, instead of 5?

By the way, that'd give you right at 9 grains per pound pull from your 53 pound bow!

The newer carbon arrows are much better and come in heavier weights. My first experience with carbon was a long time ago. I weighed the finished arrows and figuring a minimum of 6 grs. per pound, I had to turn my bow way down to keep from over stressing it. I wound up getting the same speed out of it as I was getting out of my heavier aluminum with my bow turned up. These arrows were supposed to be good from 80 to 100 pounds. I would have blown up my bow, almost like dry firing.
I have not tried any of the new ones because of the cost. I'm retired now on a fixed income. Have to use what I have. Even some of the broadheads are over $10 apiece now. Things are going crazy! I might have to go back to making broadheads like I did when I was a kid.

Thanks again Don_G!!

I'll be forced to look at Bass Pro next week and see what I can find and maybe I'll give those Redheads a try.

I spent an evening with a friend who runs the 4H Archery program locally and is an avid hunter. He agreed with the weight (as do I) issue, but said I have had good luck with the lighter arrows, so don't change. He uses carbon and has arrow weight around 450 grs. He kills about 10 deer a year with a 55 lb bow. Some other guys who were there who also hunt pretty hard, didn't have a clue what their arrows weighed and could care less. We all hold shots under 30 yds and usually under 20 or so yds, so maybe at that range it realy doesn't matter so much. I'll let you know if I get the Redheads.