Hi.

I'm rcamuglia and I'm a bowhunter.

I drew a permit and hunted elk this year; it was the best hunt of any kind in which I have ever taken part. I ran into quite a few folks who I knew in some fashion out in the middle of nowhere. Interesting. I also ran into many bowhunters who had wounded animals and never recovered them. Some of these guys were serious year 'round 3D shooters. One of these "serious" tournament shooters had the lack of brains to tell me he had shot 4, yes four bulls, that he could not find. What a frigging idiot.

A group of guys camped above us found their rotten carcass 3 days later when the birds lead them to it. The story was a pitiful one about how the bull was wounded. The long and the short of it was that it was a moving 61 yard quartering away shot that resulted in an arrow in the ass.

I have shot and never recovered elk as well in seasons past. Both shots were in the 40 to 50 yard range broadside and I felt confident in my ability. One jumped the string and moved enough to be gut shot, the other looked as perfect as it could get. I have been on hunts with a good friend who seems to wound a lot. I have helped him recover bird covered carcasses well after the shot.

The list and incidents go on and I'm sure not just for me and mine. It seems to be a part of bowhunting. A part I don't particularly like.



Weighing it all, I was determined not to have it happen on this great trip in this great area. I was looking for something bigger than I have already taken. I called in a number of raghorns and a 5x5 that I passed an easy 30 yard shot on. In successive days I saw and had opportunities at some nice 6x6's that I could have shot. All the shots were marginal at best. You know how things just don't always work out for the perfect shot. Too much brush, just over the rounded top of a knoll, wrong angle. They would have ended up in tracking with lost days of hunting and sleepless nights, or with lots O luck, a nice bull. You know, an animal is not a steel plate hanging out there where a hit anywhere on it counts as a kill. The shot must be chosen better than that.

I chose not to shoot and enjoyed watching them come into the call, bugling their heads off.

I enjoyed the hunt just as much as if I had killed a record. I saw elk behavior on this hunt in person that until now I have only seen on video. I'll hunt there with a camera next year if I'm not drawn.


I know there are slob hunters in every other weapon class, but I expect bowhunters to be better than what I encountered this year. A little common sense and respect for the sport, game and land go a long way.

Well said...

I hunt hard all year round although I put maybe one or two animals in the freezer...

But I enjoy every moment out there.

Over the years I have met a lot of different hunters and to be honest I have came to realize that bow hunters in the majority of the time are the more ethical hunters.

I personally have a problem with 3D animals (McKenzie) if I am not mistaken, the X is place totally on the wrong part of the body. So hunters shoot and practice whole season long on these and can not understand why they wound animals when they shoot them the same as the 3 D target.

The South African Bow Hunter Association has gone so far as to only use African 3D animals and then draw in the vital area (5 and X) in the correct place for each target.

The aim is to force archers to get use to aiming at the "boiler room" and its then an natural extension to move to the real animal.

Good hunting and may your arrows fly straight and your blood trails be short.

I was in my stand yesterday AM-opening morning. Game cam hadn't shown any deer for a week--too many acorns. About 45 minutes after first light, I see a buck across the fence headed my way. He goes down in the creekbed, climbs out, jumps the fence and comes right towards me-and I'm getting ready. He's a small 8-pt, maybe 14" wide, 2.5 y.o. and then back down the trail, I see his big brother. It's another 8, maybe 18" wide and it will score 130-135 B&C. Well, after seeing the big boy, no way was I gonna shoot the first buck. However, the bigger buck was goosey, wouldn't stand still, didn't give me a good shot, and didn't move into my primary shooting lane. Twice I began to draw, and stopped when he semi-spooked. I had several opportunities at 25+ yds, which is beyond my self-imposed limit of 20, and as alert and spooky as the buck was, I was sure he would have jumped the string big time. Last thing I wanted was to wound him. So, I passed, and passed on the young buck too, although when he left the area, he walked within his body's length of my tripod leg--could have jumped on his back.

I'll be back out in the stand in about 3 hours--hoping he shows again, but I'll never regret not shooting. The memories and case of shakes are plenty good for me.

There is a lot of problems here, I read a statemtent one time that said, "anything that gets to popular is ruined" and that can be applied to bowhunting in this case. I don't buy into the big tent theory that we are all hunters and ANY hunter is better than no hunter. I have read articles by some of the big name hunters bragging on 60 yard plus shots, well we don't always hear the whole story on those. Bowhunting is not and should not be a long range proposition and I couldn't care less how good someone is at shooting targets, 3d or otherwise, targets don't move, they don't take arrows through the guts or in the ass and run off to die a miserable death days later. An 800# bull elk(or ANY animal)deserves better. It only takes a gust of wind or a twitch on an animals part to turn 50 or 60 yard shots into bad news. I've had lots of opportunities on elk, but never took one, because I didn't get the shot I was looking for. I have spent years on properties buildig up good will for bowhunters only to see one or two jerks ruin it in a couple days. In general bowhunters are more ethical in my experience, BUT there are a lot of instant bowhunters these days, we just discussed this on the other thread. People walk into a proshop with a credit card and walk out a "bowhunter", well they might know how to draw and release, but that does not make a bowhunter. Thats one reason why I recommend new bowhunters start out with a stickbow. Learn to hunt at 20 yards or less, thats a bowhunter and not a bowshooter.

Last year in New Mexico I found the carcasses of two bulls, 5x5 and 6x5, with not enough left of the remains to tell what had happened, but I would bet either bowhunting or poaching gone bad.

I was gun hunting at the time, but even then I passed a 60yrd shot at bull do to the angle and presentation of the shot. I couldn't guarantee the results so I didn't shoot.

I've never understood people taking shots that weren't 99.99% solid. Enjoying the encounter with the animal is a good compromise to flinging shots in attempts to make a lucky hit.

I understand the need to shoot longer distances out west, and have friends that are completely compentent in shots to 40-50yrds from tree stands and blinds, but it seems like a lot of hunters are willing to stretch their shots beyond their abilities instead of learning from the situation and doing what it takes to get in range next time. It's a shame.

There is absolutely NO need to take longer shots out west or anywhere else. Its because it is more open out west that people have the opportunity to take long more often and they can bare to pass them up. I know guys that have taken long shots on animals that were COMING TO THEM, but they couldn't wait. AT least part of the problem is 3D shoots, I quit going to them when they started putting targets at 60 yards plus. I know one of the more famous bowhunters who was working on his "slam" and wrote about the shot "right through the boiler room" at 63 yards on big game animal, well for him, the "boiler room" is in the ass. My buddy examined the carcass and said the guy nearly missed it, but apparently caught the artery in the hind leg. Yet people have used that very shot as an excuse to shoot at ridiculous distances.

I have to believe the newer equipment gives people a false sense of security when it comes to shooting distances. 20 yards broadside and the animal is dead start pushing the distance and quartering shots and you will eventual get burned. Most guys will start blaming the equipment or giving the animal some mystical powers that allow then to live after being arrowed.

There are many good points so far,..I learned on a stick bow and do most of my own tuning because I enjoy it. Although most guys will proably outshoot me at a 3-d shoot. I will recover my animal when I release an arrow.

When to take a shot is only one part of being an ethical hunter. Target practice is an activity one can do to build confidence in your ability and equipment. What few people practice is woodsmamnship, how to walk quietly, read the wind, and animal if front of you, how to track an animal,...When was the last time you seen a show or video that actually followed the entire blood trail! You see the shot and then the "hunter" picking up the animal!

I have helped many friends find there animals after they lost the trail. And try to show them what I have learned over the years of reading the trail these skills you can't buy with a credit card.

I think everyone is "spot on" with their comments. Gerhard makes a good point about the American 3D targets. We have always been taught in the USA to shoot the animal behind the shoulder as opposed to straight up the leg; and our targets over here have the X-Ring behind the shoulder. I think this leads to most Americans shooting the animal too far back and causes many gut shots. After a bowhunter practices over and over for the behind the shoulder shot as depicted on the 3D target it is where he believes the arrow should be placed and it is where he aims. If the arrow strikes just behind the shoulder in the crease it will be OK... but, when the arrow hits only slighty further back it is NOT a good hit in most cases. The better aiming point in my opinion is straight up the leg and one third up the body. This allows more margin of error should the arrow stray a little back. I also suspect that in the heat of the moment some inexperienced bowhunters end up releasing an arrow aimed at "center mass" of a broadside animal as opposed to their intended "behind the shoulder" aiming spot which results in a hit even further back.

Another aspect of our sport is the "need for speed" in todays bow market. With bows shooting faster and faster each year being the trend, newer bowhunters think that the shot distance can be lengthened due to a flatter shooting bow. Long shots that may be fine on paper or at a rubber animal are in real world hunting situations, on a live and fully alert prey animal, in cover and with wind and other considerations, nothing but unacceptable. The old fashioned "up close and personal" shot should be the norm in bowhunting by the seasoned bowhunter with many years under his belt and the newcomer alike. Bowhunting is a close range sport and I like it that way !
Andy

Most places that you can go to hunt now around the world have a "if it bleeds, you pay policy", even some outfitters in the US and Canada are doing that, once you hit an animal, your tag is filled. Having guided a lot of hunters, I know its a good thing.
I wonder how many of those shooting their super fast bows with 300 grain arrows would hunt with that bow if it shot 160fps? I wonder how many of them have shot an arrow through a crony at 60 yards? I saw video once of an arrow shot at an impala, drinking at a waterhole, at the sound of the shot the impala, jumped and spun 180 degrees the arrow hit it on the OPPOSITE side from when it was released. This was at short range, so imagine how much time an animal has to move at 40 or 50 yards or further. I don't care how fast the bow is, its still no match for the speed of sound. Anatomy is important and a lot of hunters could stand to study it more, but it isn't the same for all animals and a lot of hunters are terrified of hitting the shoulder blade, because they don't know where it is, but if they are taking 60 yard shots at any animal bigger than a gopher, anatomy is not the biggest problem. The closer an animal is, the easier it is to pick a spot and the less time it has to move.
Sometimes all it takes is for someone to have the guts and say, "either do it right, or you are not welcome to hunt with me".

quote:

Originally posted by loboga:
Most places that you can go to hunt now around the world have a "if it bleeds, you pay policy", even some outfitters in the US and Canada are doing that, once you hit an animal, your tag is filled. Having guided a lot of hunters, I know its a good thing.
I wonder how many of those shooting their super fast bows with 300 grain arrows would hunt with that bow if it shot 160fps? I wonder how many of them have shot an arrow through a crony at 60 yards? I saw video once of an arrow shot at an impala, drinking at a waterhole, at the sound of the shot the impala, jumped and spun 180 degrees the arrow hit it on the OPPOSITE side from when it was released. This was at short range, so imagine how much time an animal has to move at 40 or 50 yards or further. I don't care how fast the bow is, its still no match for the speed of sound. Anatomy is important and a lot of hunters could stand to study it more, but it isn't the same for all animals and a lot of hunters are terrified of hitting the shoulder blade, because they don't know where it is, but if they are taking 60 yard shots at any animal bigger than a gopher, anatomy is not the biggest problem. The closer an animal is, the easier it is to pick a spot and the less time it has to move.
Sometimes all it takes is for someone to have the guts and say, "either do it right, or you are not welcome to hunt with me".

Well said loboga.

All of the responses have been good and well-thought.

I agree that if you draw blood, your hunt should be over. I have a friend whos' policy is that on his ranch.

Having seen and heard from other hunters on this particular hunt almost had me ready to give up bowhunting, actually questioning its overall ethical reason for being. I would easily wager that more animals are wounded, some mortally than are recovered on any bowhunt. It has to do with the idiots who "fling" arrows. After thought and y'all's great input, I have decided that would be absolutely the wrong course of action. I enjoy the hunt too much.

quote:

Sometimes all it takes is for someone to have the guts and say, "either do it right, or you are not welcome to hunt with me".

I don't really know the way to change the slob Bowhunter's mentality into lockstep with this. If we could, it would be great.

I hunted the first season on the Humphries Wildlife Area, out of Chama, NM, September 1 thru 10. A little early and hot. Called up a nice 5 x5 with 4 cows. Played cat and mouse with them for about 2 hours. Got within 80 yards, but no closer. Had a great hunt! Saw 2 other bulls, but wouldn't answer the call.

An acouiantance of mine who is supposed to be a world class bow hunter, was hunting down in the Gila at the same time. He bragged to me that he wounded and lost 2 5 x 5's. 50 to 60 yard shots. He complained the Gila was just to hard to hunt. How's that for "hunting"? Don't believe I'll be hunting with him anytime soon.

People are people no matter what hunting tool they choose.

You're right, but do you have to say that so "wide"?

I love to bow hunt and have been fortunate to be pretty successful at it, but one thing I established early in my bow hunting career was self imposed limits on what shots I would take. I feel that for one to be an ethical bow hunter, you absolutely must do that. I have a self imposed maximum shot distance of 30 yard for a straight on broadside shot and 25 yards if the deer is quartered to me.

One must also have some self imposed guidelines on how long to wait before getting down from your stand after a hit. Many deer are lost because they were pushed to soon and they got up and ran before having a chance to bleed out.

And, finally, a lot of people need to work harder at developing tracking skills. Many are way to impatient when it comes to tracking. You may have to get down on your hands and knees and look for blood, but if the animal was hit half way decently it can be tracked and recovered.

I'm sure that even the best of hunters will sometimes loose an animal, but they ought to be few and far between.

RC,
Great post and I agree with you and the comments posted 100%.

It all comes down to that individual hunter making the correct decisions. Starting with equipment choices to real hunting shot scenarios.

There are a number of reasons that we are seeing this type of behaviour.
Some of these have already been stated.

1. Instant bowhunter- It is relatively easy to go into a pro shop today and walk out fairly proficient at 20 yards. But they are missing the necessary skills to follow up after the shot.
2. Hunting shows- are showing long distance shots. One show had them practicing at 100 yards! They were hitting their block target. What does show neophytes?
3. Technology in modern archery equipment. I feel the trigger and peep sight lends to the attitude that if you squeeze the trigger, it will die. Too much like a rifle. Also the light arrows used for speed and flatter trajectory lose a tremendous amount of energy out at 50-60 yards. Don't get me started on mechanical broadheads. They have improved a bunch, but a solid two blade cut on contact head is much better.
4. 3-D/target archery, this skill does not translate to hunting. Totally different mentality IMO. RC should be able to relate to that. Competition shooting is different than hunting, correct?

The best summation is the definitions we provided at the beginning of the bowhunter education course's we taught.

Archery- How far can you be from a target and still hit it.
Bowhunting- How close you can get to an animal before you release an arrow.

I have been bowhunting since 1985, traditional since 1994. It has been a huge 25 year learning curve and I am still learning. I have been fortunate to have some fantastic mentors. Taught bowhunter education for 10 plus years, served on my State Bowhunting organization board. Got really involved in politics, but it ruined my passion for bowhunting. So I backed out, and have truly enjoyed bowhunting again for the last 6-7 years again.

With all that being said, I consider myself a purist when it come to bowhunting, get close, get closer and slam dunk the shot. I choose to use traditional equipment to accomplish that. It is simpler in practice, but more difficult in hunting.

My choice, and it has worked for me.