CNN has done an article on Claude Dallas

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/02/05/idaho.outlaw.ap/index.html

I don't think this man should be released from prison...after killing two game wardens and escaping from prision (and having a gunfight with the FBI) he only gets 24 years?? WTF??

MG

Doesn't matter what you think......he was tried by a jury.....found guilty of manslaughter..... did his time and is getting out after serving his sentenence.........

Second guessing the jury is pointless....the judge gave him the maximum sentenence for manslaughter......what more do you want???

By the way....he was aquitted of the escape charges.......and....exactly when did he have a gunfight with the FBI????

He never dooked it out with the FBI!

He was shot by the FBI during an attempt to recapture him the second time.

They should have shot him in the head.

Tell the families of the two wardens that their loved ones lives are only worth 24 years.

MG

I agree. But they didn't and he is set to go.

Now I am not saying that I want C. D. for my buddy, but am having a hard time understanding all this exitement.

The state turns loose crack and meth dealers every day whom have had multiple convictions. I think they rate much higher on the "Clear and Present Danger to Society" scale.

I don't see a lot of excitement over these scum. Is it because these guys are turned loose by the hundreds every day across the nation and we have gotten numb to them? And there have been very few killers of LEO's caught and not convicted of murder?

I think actually, I would be far less worried about Dallas moving into my town, than I would be of one of the many pedophiles who are also released from prison every day. They are much more likely to reoffend.

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Originally posted by Madgoat:

Tell the families of the two wardens that their loved ones lives are only worth 24 years.

MG

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It's not my place to tell the families anything.......1. You weren't a witness to the crime, 2. You weren't on the jury, 3. You didn't hear the testimony in court.......BUT, YOU know more about what the jury should have done than they do!

There are two sides to every story.......if, after listening to the facts of the case including EYEWITNESS testimony, the JURY says it wasn't first degree murder......then it wasn't first degree murder.......

Have you even read the book???? Have you read any of the testimony? Have you read any of the interviews with other people that had problems with Pogue??? If not, you don't know enough to have a relevant opinion!

Where there is smoke, there is usually fire......if you push people around long enough.....chances are good that you will run into someone that won't be pushed.....Claude Dallas was that type of someone.....don't condone what he did in any way.......but I can understand why it happened.....

Using that logic, the next time someone pushes me around I am justified in killing him? Then the guy with him? Get real!

The only "witness" to these brutal acts were CD's friend...I'm sure he told the whole truth. That was the ONLY side of the story told.

I guess it is very unfortunate for our society that there are still some people out there who support what he did...or can at least understand what made him execute two individuals.

MG

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Originally posted by Madgoat:
Using that logic, the next time someone pushes me around I am justified in killing him? Then the guy with him? Get real!

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Lose the emotion and stick to the facts......I never said Dallas was justified in killing anyone......did I? I said I could understand how it happened. When you put someone with a history of being a bully, Pogue, and someone, who refuses to be bullied, Dallas.....in the situation that they were in...... something bad is bound to happen! That doesn't mean I believe the arrest was wrong, however, after reading the book and several other items regarding this case, I do believe Pouge bears some of the responsibility for what happened......but, what I believe really doesn't matter any more than what you believe because our beliefs have no impact on the case.

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The only "witness" to these brutal acts were CD's friend...I'm sure he told the whole truth. That was the ONLY side of the story told.

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The eyewitness wasn't a friend of Dallas'......get your story straight! The eyewitness was a witness for the PROSECUTION, NOT the defense!

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I guess it is very unfortunate for our society that there are still some people out there who support what he did...or can at least understand what made him execute two individuals.

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Are you a woman?.... 'cause you sure seem to think like one! Please tell me how you jump from my statement that said I can understand how or why something happened to the assumption that I support what happened???

I'll ask again:

Have you even read the book???? Have you read any of the testimony? Have you read any of the interviews with other people that had problems with Pogue??? If not, you don't know enough to have a relevant opinion!

If you haven't looked for the facts in the case, then you can't have an informed opinion!

Back to my original statement......how you feel or what you think about this case is irrelevant.......Dallas did his time .....case closed!

It's hard to know how things will turn out. I remember that Ian Tyson song about Claude Dallas.

He should have never used the 22 to finish those two wardens off. That made it murder, in my book. I will look into this some more, I think its kind of interesting.

We had a similar deal where and Eskimo killed his wife, and got off on a 5 year manslaughter deal. I think he was out in 18 months.

I want to know more about this. I am really supprised that he killed those two wardens after the gun fight. He probably would have got off scott free if he hadn't of used the 22 to end there lives.

If law enforcment is on the wrong side of the law when they apprehend you, they will lose in court.

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Originally posted by D99:

If law enforcment is on the wrong side of the law when they apprehend you, they will lose in court.

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I wouldn't bet my freedom on that assumption! Have you forgotten all the cases that had to be re-tried when the FBI crime lab was found to have manipulated evidence a few years back????

Clearly in this great society there is room for improvment. Pehaps in the space once occupied by the gallows, or over by the wall pock marked by bullets froma firing squad, no better yet, that tidy spot where "olse Sparky" the chair once sat.

Sounds interesting . Id like to read that book.

Anyone know where to find the book?

S. fork of the owyhee is down by nevada, oragon,Idaho triangle . Pretty remote area in the desert.

Like to find out about that Idaho game warden.

I guess I'm trying to figure out why Pogue has anything to do with this? He was the guy who was killed. I guess we are saying it was his fault? He should not be enforcing the law? How could the killer believe that the law did not apply to him? Guess I have a lot to learn. I suppose the people in the Edward R Morrow building just had it coming. It's OK to shoot law enforcement officers, just not OK to shoot them in the head again?
Peter.

Peter. Where do you live?

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I guess I'm trying to figure out why Pogue has anything to do with this? He was the guy who was killed. I guess we are saying it was his fault?

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Pogue was considered a hot-shot, the type who wore the badge only because of the power it gave him, and liked pushing that power. If I remember correctly, the shooting of Pogue was actually a quick-draw (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Basically, the jury was convinced Pogue agravated the situation to the point where the shootings occured.

It almost goes without saying, that yes it is true that some enforcement officers should learn techniques and procedures. That being said, killing two enforcement officers over some bobcats tells me that perhaps the value of human life was not part of the value system in play there either.

He had his day in court, end of story. Change the system if it burns a hole in your stomach.

GSP7. Good question, as I believe that that has a lot to do with it. I live in Florida. I suspect that the 'frontier" ethic has a lot to do with the situation, Perhaps you can shed some light on this. As shooting is one of my interests, I come across a lot of LEOs. Most of them are nice guys, who, unfortunately, see mainly the bad side of people. This colors their attitude. In addition, perhaps because of what I just said, or perhaps not, most of them are racist bigots. I don't believe that this justifies a black person shooting them, however, and I wonder if this has ever been used to justfiy an LEO shooting ie. "he was asking for it". The jury system, is interesting. One only has to view some of the decisions made by (all white) juries when a white man killed a black man just 50-60 years ago in the South to see this. I wonder what guidance the judge gave the jury in this case?
Peter.

What does this have to do with big game hunting?

George

I don't know what was printed in the book, as I haven't read it. I would like the title though.
I know the movie based on the incident was pure Hollywood bullshit!
Let me explain. I lived in Winnemucca for a little over ten years. I left due to a job transfer shortly before the incident occurred. I am very well aquainted with the area where much of this took place. I'm not an expergt on the incident, but I do know some of what went in prior to the shooting.
First, at one time Pogue was an LEO in Winnemucca, I believe the Chief of police. He made quite a few enermies among the politically powerful in Winnemucca.
After he left Winnemucca, he would come into town to visit friends and I think relatives. They'd go downtown and havde a few. friends and I heard on more than one occasion, Pogue while drinking shoot off his mouth as to how he would shoot Claude Dallas if he ever caught him out in the boonies.
Ostensibly, Claude was poaching bobcats. Maybe so, maybe not. Bobcats were legal game at the time of the incident. His pelts had nevada tags on them. His camp was in Idaho, probably because it was the best spot due to available water. There ain't much of that stuff handy up there.
So here we have a situation where one Pogue says he's going to shoot Dallas if he catches him out in the boonies. (I'll bet half of Winnemucca, Paradise Hill and Paradise Valley all knew of Pogue's threats.) Now place yourself in that position. Just what would you do? Would Pogue have just affected an arrest, or would Dallas have been shot while "trying to escape"?
I don't know anything about Elms. I feel he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. I think that if Dallas had just shot them, then tried to get them out for medical attention, or even just left them, he would not have done a day of time. I only had a passing aquaintance with Claude Dallas. Yeah, he was a bit strange.
The main thing that does kind of stick in my craw is the public was told only what the media wanted them to hear. Two hard working game wardens? A rogue mountain man? Seems to me, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Of the ones who know for sure, only one is still alive.
He's done his time. Whether anyone feels he was, or was not punished enough, is rather moot at this point. There must have been enough reasonable doubt to only convict him of manslaughter and not murder one.
None of us were there. We don't know.
Paul B.

Paul, interesting...That game warden Pogue sounds like he was a real peach .

I know that area a little I chukar hunted I would say on the west side slope of the that mountain area.

This was posted by a guy over on 24hrcampfire , for whatever it's worth

"Let me tell you about my experience with Bill Pogue. I was returning from an unsuccesfull hunt on Juniper Mt. In southern Idaho. Eighty miles of two track from the nearest hard road, phone or any other type of help, Pogue stepped into the road and stopped me. No game in the open pick up, empty rifle cased behind the seat. After he searched the truck, he seemed angry he had found no reason to arrest me. He began to jab me in the chest with his left fingers while working the hammer on his revolver with his right. As he backed me away from my truck, I remembered the old Viet Nam feeling of "today I will die". He constantly berated me with taunts of "Don't like it, huh boy" and "What are you going to do about, boy" I believed then and believe now he was looking for an excuse to kill me. I made a silent pledge to myself, and never told any one about it, the next time I saw him in the desert I would kill him.

When Dallas shot him, he was working the hammer on his revolver. Over 300 people were prepared to testify to sinliar events.

Remember, when he went after Dallas, he was acting on behalf of a rancher's son who claimed the area as his own, private trapping domain. Remember Stevens never saw what happened with Pogue but did testify when Elms emerged from the tent his revlover was drawn. Remember also, Stevens was never charged with anything even though he admitted to helping Dallas dispose of Elms' body. Dallas should have been nominated for citizen of the year "


What is interesting about this case, there are a few individuals that get all worked up over Dallas getting out after 25 or 30 years and serving his full term for a manslaughter conviction . Yet convicted murderers get out on parole every day , often with less than ten or very few years actually served , and you don't hear so much as a whimper from these same people........

This is not easy for me to write as my father was a game warden for Utah's Division of Wildlife Resources for a while and then a Fisheries Biologist for them after graduate school. Hell, I used to help gather biological information at deer check stations when I was a kid in Utah (I'll never forget the woman who came in with the "biggest deer she'd ever seen"....a raghorn bull elk...but that's another story).

Look, I have only the most casual knowledge of this case but it seems to me that the small-town bar grapevine probably served as the intermediary between hubris and tragedy here in this case. From quite a few sources one reads it becomes apparent that Pogue was a son-of-a-bitch. That obviously doesn't give Dallas the right to kill him but I would bet you any sum of money that there was more than one night in which Pogue sat in a near-empty local bar discussing how he planned to "take Dallas out". Just enough Jack Daniels and ego to really mouth off publicly. How many times do you think such statements were overheard or even misheard by a friend or two of Dallas who got word to him that when things went down, they were going down "for good". Now, imagine you know a particular local LEO who has made even casual threats like that. Even though you know the law says you are supposed to believe in his good intentions as he shouts "Police, drop your weapon"....WOULD YOU?

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

The book "Give a Boy a Gun" by Jack Olsen covers this tragic event pretty good. Olsen's book also puts human faces on wardens Pogue and Elms. Owyhee County prosecutors predicted that the "mountain man" would eventually be captured and that it would most likely be in a city where he had support, a place to live and convenient food and that's exactly what happened.

"Outlaw" by Jeff Long is another take on Claude Dallas.

The man should never get out. Thats for sure. However lets put the blame for him getting out where it belongs. He served the time that he was sentenced to. Someone dropped the ball big time. Sometimes there is no justice in our justice system.

The real travesty is that the officer with the itchy trigger finger wasn't locked up before any of this happened. I don't think there are too many of us here that would have been dumb enough to turn over our guns to someone like that who had made so many public threats. I certainly don't condone his actions but if I was on the jury and he hadn't shot them in the head then involuntary manslaughter would have been tuff to sell to me.

Chuckwagon,

Dead on. If he had even administered first aid, got the hell outta there and sent his buddy for medical help, he woulda walked.

Best,

JohnTheGreek