Sometime in the distant past I remember reading here that the sealer should be applied first, and then stain. Is that correct? I’m using permalyn sealer. Does that serve as a wood conditioner to keep the stain from blotching, or is that needed as well? Thanks.

Stain always first. Although stain can be added to the sealer and or the finish too but if you want best penetration, put it directly on bare wood. I never use sealer; finish is the sealer. Wet sand.

1. Stain. ( personally, I don't use stain.)
2. Lee Valley Tools Tung oil Sealer. ( There are 3 types available. this is the middle one.) Rub in 1-2 applications. Two day between each coat. Wipe off excess each time.
3. wet sand in, 2 times. Let dry two days between coats.
4. hand apply 1-2 more coats.

I have done it many times. Better than any other method I have tried.

If you want a reddish tint, try alkenet root in the sealer. Sealers generally penetrate a bit deeper. I use Daly's Ship n Shore, followed with Sea Fin Teak Oil. Most of the modified oils work well

Sometimes you will encounter a species of wood (beech and birch come to mind) or end grain which absorbs stain irregularly or way too much. This can leave a blotchy appearance. A thinned sealer can control this absorption. I like to use shellac diluted 50:50 with methyl alcohol. Brush it on the wood and let dry. Then scuff off the surface with Scotchbrite or fine sandpaper. This leaves the sealer in the pores and removes it from the surface wood. Next brush on the stain. If it absorbs poorly scuff the wood again and repeat until you get the depth of color and uniformity you want.

Works well on maple. sometimes the tiger strip can be too much. Depends on what you like.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
Sometimes you will encounter a species of wood (beech and birch come to mind) or end grain which absorbs stain irregularly or way too much. This can leave a blotchy appearance. A thinned sealer can control this absorption. I like to use shellac diluted 50:50 with methyl alcohol. Brush it on the wood and let dry. Then scuff off the surface with Scotchbrite or fine sandpaper. This leaves the sealer in the pores and removes it from the surface wood. Next brush on the stain. If it absorbs poorly scuff the wood again and repeat until you get the depth of color and uniformity you want.

There's a lot of great info here. I appreciate the help. Does anyone ever put val spar or the like over coats of linseed oil?

You should never use linseed oil, ever. It never dries and is the worst possible stock finish. And is not water resistant.
Modern finishes use driers and add polyurethane to make it usable but in it's natural state, (and "boiling" does nothing) it is useless. Yes the old guys used it, but they didn't know any better. Shellac falls into the same category. There are far better things now, for wood protection.

If you seal and then stain, your stain will be more like a paint and the darkness of your stock will become lighter over time as the top and seal coat wear. I hate working on stocks which have had the stain added to the sealing and or top coat. The more you sand and buff, the lighter the area becomes until you end up stripping it all off and starting over. Modern polymers and isocyanate finishes are much more durable and provide much more protection than the finishes of old.

I see lots of old Remington model 700s and Weatherby Mark Vs from the 60s and 70s and the finish on those rifles is tough stuff. Back in those days the manufacturers used to lay it on super thick too. Nothing like the ultra thin, electrostatic applied epoxies that they use today.

I don't post photos but Ed Hubel has a photo of my single shot 24 ga From Hell (577 NE) on the Big Bore thread. I have changed that stock several time since the photos.
I have never heard of anyone taking my advice here on stock finishing, but my system works very well for a perfect oil finish. I have tried them all. You can choose from dull to shiny. I just finished a walnut stock that is tiger tail, fiddle back, from one end to another.

Also, for wet sanding you can take an hour doing it or you can do it in 5 minutes the following way.
Get a 1/2-3/4 inch thick foam pad that has the hook and eye feature for your little palm sander. Put on a 400 to 600 grit disc on it. Put lots of Lee Valley Tools Tung Oil, the sealer one, there are three, on the stock and on the sanding disk before you start. Do not line up the vacuum holes. You want no vacuum. Run it at the slowest speed, keep it moving and use minimum pressure. This method will drive the oil and the wood dust into the pores of the wood, in just seconds. It will look like brown mud. Stop immediately when the mud goes a bit dry/thick.
In the tight places, like the pistol grip, you don't want to use the palm sander. You must use a small square of 400-600 sandpaper on a 1 inch square of rubber.

Then rub the oil/mud into the wood by hand and in 10 minutes wipe of the excess. Let dry for two days. Repeat the process or not, doesn't seem to matter.
Rub in 1-3 more thin coats by hand, (always wipe off the excess in 10 minutes), depending on how shiny you want it. Always wait two days between application.

Very few people know how to finish a stock. True oil is the common method but it's hard to get right. The few folks that really know, keep the process as a trade secret.

If you try some variation of this method or some other oil, good luck. Like I say, I have tried them all.

Last tip: The Lee Valley Tools sealer tung oil will thicken in a few weeks or months in the can after you open the can and use some. It's the trapped air in the can that does it.

Sooo, fill the can up with clean marbles so there is no/little air space, then put the lid on. It will have a much longer shelf life. Just trying to help.

dpcd,
What's a good alternative? Tung oil? Tru Oil?

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
You should never use linseed oil, ever. It never dries and is the worst possible stock finish. And is not water resistant.
Modern finishes use driers and add polyurethane to make it usable but in it's natural state, (and "boiling" does nothing) it is useless. Yes the old guys used it, but they didn't know any better. Shellac falls into the same category. There are far better things now, for wood protection.

TruOil by Birchwood Casey actually does harden. As I was told by some in the know of such things, it's Spar varnish, boiled linseed oil and Jap dryer. Plus some other things like eye of newt and hair of toad.

US Composites #653 makes a nice hard finish but it is dead clear so you have to stain before using it. I don't think Fuller-Plast Clear is available anymore. That's what Weatherby used to use. West systems #105 with the slow hardener works well. These polymers have to be sprayed. A lot of the furniture finishes today are plain old isocyanates, SuperGlue. I use Satellite City superglue for patch finishing 99% of the time now days and I know lots of guys that do full finishes with it. It's the go to finish in the hobby wood craft industry. Pens, knife handles and jewellery boxes.

All depends on what kind of finish you want & if it is a hunting rifle.

As dpcd said, stain first is the best.

If you are doing up a hunting rifle, I would go for an oil finish.

IMHO the best options are are TruOil - as it has linseed oil and Tung oil in it and it seals very well. I dilute it 50% or even thinner with mineral spirits and sand it into the wood - up to 20 coats. Amazing end result. No need of a filler if you do so many coats and sand it in. The gloss is IN the wood and not ON the wood.




The other option is to use stain (I used Alkanet root soaked for years in linseed oil - for the classic red British look) and sand it in 20 coats. The last 5 coats can be Danish oil which is similar but has Carnauba wax in it and it seals with a hard wearing finish. Linseed oil alone will not seal and is not waterproof. Danish oil is compatible with LO and gives the sealing and finish.

I found that Truoil did not work on top of LO.

If you want to make it easier, just mix the linseed oil Danish oil, spirits & Alkanet root and then apply it thin and sand it in - 20+ coats.

This is a more subdues rich finish and not glossy. Easy to maintain - just a light sand and more coats any time you want.

Sounds like you mix the alkenet root and the sealer?

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
If you want a reddish tint, try alkenet root in the sealer. Sealers generally penetrate a bit deeper. I use Daly's Ship n Shore, followed with Sea Fin Teak Oil. Most of the modified oils work well

Nakihunter,
This is a hunting rifle. It's an early 50s Husqvarna in 30-06. Those were made on FN actions. The stocks on those had a lot of extra wood. They used some kind of stain that has faded to a reddish orange, and it's worn. Nice piece of wood though, no cracks, very hard.

That mannlicher is nice.

I use the finish sold by Brownells; a mixture of tung oil and poly. I only use Laurel Mountain stain; I have tried Alkanet root and I can never get a good red color, so I just use Laurel Mountain cherry when I want a red stain. Their stain penetrates well, and their finish is good too. I have several colors and mix them at will, to suit how I feel that day. Reddish, brownish, honey mapleish, etc.
On your Husky, many of their stocks are Beech, so need stain to look good. Some are walnut, most I see are beech.

I tried these 3 infusions of Alkanet root and all worked. I ended up mixing the lot! The IPO evaporated. I used the bulk dry root imported from Pakistan by a local craft shop who makes soaps etc.

Both rifles are Mannlicher Schoenauers. The top is a 1930s Greek conversion with full stock and the second stained one is a 1910 take down. You can see the full labour of love here http://forums.accuratereloadin...851067981#7851067981

The Husqvarna rifles are great. I had one in 9.3X57 but the stock was terrible. Huge drop at comb with a thin narrow comb. It was designed specifically to kick like a mule and break my cheek bone!

I replaced it with a laminate about 20 years ago.

I am using the Laurel Mt. sealer and stain. Don't have any of their finish. Maybe I should get some.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I use the finish sold by Brownells; a mixture of tung oil and poly. I only use Laurel Mountain stain; I have tried Alkanet root and I can never get a good red color, so I just use Laurel Mountain cherry when I want a red stain. Their stain penetrates well, and their finish is good too. I have several colors and mix them at will, to suit how I feel that day. Reddish, brownish, honey mapleish, etc.
On your Husky, many of their stocks are Beech, so need stain to look good. Some are walnut, most I see are beech.

Their sealer is just a thinner version of their finish. They made good products.
I also have a big bag of shredded alkanet root and have mixed it with oil, and denatured alcohol. It turns purple, not red. I don't like it. I am probably doing something wrong.

Jeffrey:

Blotching suggests that the wood grain has some soft spots that absorb more stain than the rest. Have you considered using an air brush to apply the stain? Just a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by JeffreyPhD:
Sometime in the distant past I remember reading here that the sealer should be applied first, and then stain. Is that correct? I’m using permalyn sealer. Does that serve as a wood conditioner to keep the stain from blotching, or is that needed as well? Thanks.

I have no idea what blotching means; stain is not for changing the wood; it is to enhance it; wood is a natural, and non homogeneous material. The stain I use, and apply with cotton balls, will not do anything that is not already in the wood. It is natural and I do not try to change it. And even if you sprayed stain on, which I don't recommend, the result would be the same.

dpcd - I respectfully disagree with what you said about spray on vs wiped on and off stain. I'm referring to a superfine mist from a air brush. Not a heavy coat.
Seems elementary my friend.
I have several pieces of solid cherry furniture with no stain just a top coat of poly something or other. The color varies by several shades. I also have a couple other pieces made from solid cherry with a sprayed on stain then the poly. The color/shade is very consistent. Stain that hasn't been wiped has always had more even color in my experience.
I personally haven't sprayed on any stain on gun stocks. But, I expect the results would be similar with any problem wood.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I have no idea what blotching means; stain is not for changing the wood; it is to enhance it; wood is a natural, and non homogeneous material. The stain I use, and apply with cotton balls, will not do anything that is not already in the wood. It is natural and I do not try to change it. And even if you sprayed stain on, which I don't recommend, the result would be the same.

I won't be spraying on any stain; wouldn't achieve anything as, with the stain I use, it colors once; then you can add all you want, or put more here or there; it is always the same color.
This stain is not "wipe on and off"; there is no "off" it is alcohol based and penetrates immediately. It is not "wiping" stain, which is like paint, at least what I have seen for uses other than gun stocks.
You can't vary the stain to try to paint color onto the stock, not with the stains I use.
We may be talking about different stain types. This stain goes into the wood, not on it.

OK.

Alkanet root acts like a litmus test medium - varies in colour according to pH. Hence the blue versus red spectrum. Hence it is used for making soaps, creams etc.

You do not need a lot of it. Just try a spoon full in a few samples like my picture above. Try it in IPA, mineral spirits, boiled linseed oil etc.

Denatured alcohol may already have a tint or some other additive added (it is probably mentholated ethanol - to prevent abuse) and hence the purple colour.

The result of Alkanet root and boiled linseed oil on good bur walnut is such a heart stopping rich glow. I get goose bumps thinking of real nice walnut grain enhanced with this treatment. The 100+ year old British guns and double rifles had that on their stocks.

Mu 1910 MS above looks so incredible in hand. The photo is not even 25% of what it looks like in hand.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Their sealer is just a thinner version of their finish. They made good products.
I also have a big bag of shredded alkanet root and have mixed it with oil, and denatured alcohol. It turns purple, not red. I don't like it. I am probably doing something wrong.

Nope; too much drama involved; I will use Laurel Mountain stain when I want red; it is the same color as the root and is already mixed. I tried it in oil too; same thing; not red like I wanted.
Boiled linseed oil: I would never put that on a gun stock. It is the poorest finish ever used. I know, it used to be the standard.

I haven't finished near as many stocks as some of you guys have. Only a dozen or 20 maybe. I have done quite a bit of woodworking, making furniture and such for my own use.

I try to get extra pieces of the same wood to play with. For stains I get the small cans of Minwax. Have about ten various ones and try what i think will enhance the wood I'm working on. Usually apply it with a paper towel folded in a pad. Apply it as desired until the grain shows to please me. Let it dry a few days depending on temp.

Lightly sand it with 600 just enough to make it smooth again. Rubber gloves and wipe on TruOil until it starts stiffing up. Wipe it smooth as possible and dry at least over night between coats. First half dozen coats I sand it nearly off.

After that, 4 or more coats til one turns out very smooth. Once it's slick without flaws. I just slightly buff it enough with 4/0 to take the shine off.

When they get banged up, it's easy to retouch the damage and that won't show unless it's a bad ding. When that happens the dent just stays there and finish applied over it. I do apply it heavy under the pad, and inside so it's sealed without a doubt.

Most of my stocks have not over ten coats in all. They hold up real well.

Taking others suggestions I used Linspeed on one. Beautiful grain, but, it turned out way too dark for my liking. I've thought a lot of times about sanding it down and starting over. Just too lazy and keep putting it off. I know the stock would be beautiful after I do so.

Just my ideas and how I do them.

George

Some walnut, especially some Claro, will turn very dark or black with oil on it, so you have to use some finish that won't penetrate too deeply. Like a spray on poly.
And as for stains, do not get opaque type stains mixed up with transparent stains; they do different jobs. The opaque stains are used in furniture making to make the wood all the same color and are typically, wiped on, and off . Transparent stains, again like the alcohol based Laurel Mountains, and others, work differently and do not change the wood character and don't build up color; hard to describe.

Somewhere around 1600's. varnish was made from turpentine, resin and linseed oil.
Today, the idea is about the same, and like woodworkers of bygone days, the proportions can be changed.

Want a hard built up finish....more resin, a drying oil, less resin and for a true linseed oil finish, perhaps only an added drier.

Even the most modern drying (modified) oil finishes sill contain either linseed, tung castor oil or perhaps all three.

Point is that today we have off the shelf, consistent products to achieve just about any end result we want.

I've found that many of the "sealers" are well worthwhile and use them without fail.

I have dozens of stains and dyes, but almost never use them on a custom stock (Alkenet Root is the exception) The inventory of stains and dyes are for repair and restoration.

My high school shop teacher said that stains are used to make cheap wood look more like expensive wood. Still sounds true

Stain can also make nice wood, look pretty cheap !

Just sayin.

What is Varathane? Seems to me like I read somewhere that some custom rifle stockmakers use it.

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:
What is Varathane? Seems to me like I read somewhere that some custom rifle stockmakers use it.

It's a brand name for various polyurethane finishes, been around for quite a while.