The Accurate Reloading Forums
Value of hitting a 1 meter target at 4 or 5 thousand yards?

This topic can be found at:
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8991022351/m/6901032632

27 October 2017, 20:44
Mike_Dettorre
Value of hitting a 1 meter target at 4 or 5 thousand yards?
Saw some recent internet articles about world records of hitting a 1 meter target at 4604 and then 5000 yards. Interesting enough the 5000 yard shot was on the very edge of the target board and what appears to be 20 inches out from the point of aim.

What occurs to me is what is the point? because most shooting technology is based on some practical application. Extreme long range shooting is generally a military application.

If we are talking about anti-personnel sniping, the human chest is 18-20 inches across, best case. Not much good to miss your target by almost a foot.

If we are talking about anti-materiel, the projectile is going to be travelling what? 500-600 fps with less than 500 lbs of energy. I doubt that this record was set with explosive tipped ammunition which might be useful at that distance.

May be there is value in simply advancing the technology but to call it a "record" seems like a corruption of the English language. Would we call it a "record" if we hit a barn door at 20,000 yards?

I am not a long rage shooter. I certainly find it impressive when I read about the 3-5 inches groups at 1000 yards but I am not sure of the application/value of being able to hit the edge of a 40 inch target at 5000 yards.


Mike



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 100 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
27 October 2017, 23:25
Gerard
I would call it a good start. In Carlos Hathcocks days, hitting at one mile was a hit and miss affair. Three weeks ago, I hit a 36" high and 18" wide steel plate at one mile with the first shot and, I am by no means a long range shooter. The distances we are hitting at reliably, is extending and if someone does not push the envelope, we stagnate and that is dangerous.
28 October 2017, 01:16
jens poulsen
I my book its about getting first shot with in a 5" circle until it won't Group 5" no more.


DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway
28 October 2017, 07:45
gwahir
Yup! Show me the 5 shot group!
28 October 2017, 08:41
Fjold
Why do people climb Mount Everest? What practical application does it serve?


Frank



"I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money."
- Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953

NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite

28 October 2017, 09:23
Mike_Dettorre
Frank,

I actually think there is a difference. Mt Everest is the tallest mountain in the world.

Hitting a 40 in target at the edge at 5000 yards proves nothing.

If we move it to 10,000 yards and hit an 80 inch target who cares we really aren't advancing anything.


Mike



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 100 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
28 October 2017, 18:50
Ole Miss Guy
I'm with Mike
29 October 2017, 02:05
AnotherAZWriter
quote:
Originally posted by Ole Miss Guy:
I'm with Mike


Me too; Jens as well. But if someone gets their jollies smacking a huge target at several thousand yards, go for it.


Don't Ever Book a Hunt with Jeff Blair
http://forums.accuratereloadin...821061151#2821061151

29 October 2017, 05:00
Fjold
So it's the tallest mountain, whoopee. Everest has been summited by 4,469 different people, 7,646 times so what's the use of doing it now? People just want to say, "I did that", the same way people want to say that they hit a target at 4,000, yards.


I just saw the story about a new "World's Record"

BREAKING: Americans Connect at 5,000 Yards (2.84 Miles) for NEW Long Range World Record

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...-range-world-record/

This guy hit a 4' wide target once after 36 misses and their calling it a great feat of marksmanship. What a load of crap! He barely nicked the edge of the target on his 37th shot. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while. How can that be considered anything but blind luck? If you throw enough lead, sooner or later you're going to hit something.


Frank



"I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money."
- Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953

NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite

29 October 2017, 07:06
Lamar
wow 100 sumthin years ago putting a 45-70 into a 10'x10' square at 1,000 yds was good enough.

think about a group of Indians sitting on a hill plotting your demise and you send one down range at them and take out a horse or an Indian.
they might not even hear the report in the milling around and confusion.
but they would get to thinking.

close enough is good enough if used properly.
how many times would you leave the house if every time you opened the door a bullet hit a foot away?
how much worse is it if you don't even hear the boom.
29 October 2017, 20:30
Crazyhorseconsulting
Just a comment, nothing more.

As long as such activities are kept in the realm of shooting at metal plates or other inanimate targets, I see nothing wrong with it.

Moving it into the realm of hunting animals, to me is a whole different matter.


Even the rocks don't last forever.



29 October 2017, 20:45
Gerard
The difference is in the point of view. To some, hitting with the first shot is a job well done. To others, shooting a group is important.

They belong in different groups, just like hunters and target shooters, stalkers and long distance hunters, those who like machine guns and those who like double rifles, ethical hunters and those who take shots at everything and do not mind where/if they hit.

Some people like multiple disciplines and all firearms, some people like only one discipline or only one type of firearm.

It just depends on one's point of view.
29 October 2017, 23:16
INTJ
I think making a hit at 4-5000 yds, and getting better at it, is just another thing to accomplish. I expect it requires VERY specialized equipment and loads, and as such is an end in and of itself.
29 October 2017, 23:36
Mike_Dettorre
Perhaps, I should have provide a bit more information and perspective.

The point of aim was an 8 inch square, the 1 point of impact was at the edge of the 40 inch target. 20 inches from the point of aim and 16 inches off the target.

I just don't see how you classify that as a "new world record".

Will the next world record be, I missed by less than 3 ft at 10,000 yards.


Mike



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 100 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
30 October 2017, 06:11
Lamar
ah I can see the point there.
yes a realistic goal should be set.