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Do loads ever group relatively better at further distances?
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By the time a bullet has gone to sleep or stabilized in flight, the damage has been done. It is not a smart bullet and cannot correct it's course back onto the target.

Shooting more accurately at longer distances would be attributed to either focusing more on the target and actually shooting better or just damn luck. There is no way that 3 or 5 or however many bullets you just shot into a 1.5" group at 100 yards, is going to come back together and group tighter at longer ranges.

Now there is a chance the next group of bullets you shoot at 200 yards groups better than the previous group you shot at 100 yards.


We knew the FBI couldn't be trusted when they aborted the 10mm.
 
Posts: 529 | Location: Utah | Registered: 30 January 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Weather must be bad, only shooting being done is on the keyboard.
 
Posts: 8696 | Location: Poetry, Texas | Registered: 28 November 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The weather is bad. We have had the mildest winter on record until last Sunday. Two snowstorms since then. One more forecast for tonight, one next monday and another next weekend. I thought winter was going to skip us here.


We knew the FBI couldn't be trusted when they aborted the 10mm.
 
Posts: 529 | Location: Utah | Registered: 30 January 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If anyone has a rifle that can consistently shoot smaller groups at farther distances than it does close in, Bryan Litz will pay your expenses to come to his place and prove it.

There's a long discussion about it here, but no one will take the challenge:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com...spersion_at_longer_r

It's really not possible aside from the occasional random occurrence.


One shot , one kill
 
Posts: 197 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: 13 December 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Could the parallax error be greater at the nearer distances, causing less precise aiming?


George


 
Posts: 14623 | Location: San Antonio, TX | Registered: 22 May 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I wouldn't draw any conclusions until I had credible statistics at each distance. Specifically, 5 consecutive 5 shot groups at each distance, run through a tool like On Target.
As noted previously, Brian Litz debunked this theory in Modern Advancements, vol II, Angular Group Convergence. It's an in-depth study of this wives tail.
 
Posts: 5 | Registered: 12 December 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Could the parallax error be greater at the nearer distances, causing less precise aiming?
George

I doubt it would make a big difference.
Most scopes are focused at around 150 yards, and any parallax errors should be consistent.

Most long range shooters now use AO scopes anyway.


One shot , one kill
 
Posts: 197 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: 13 December 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Its all about barrel vibes..Ive seen many rifles that shot better at 200 or 300 yards than they did at 100 yards..bullet yaw and stabilization can take place at any yardage and change the norm..fortunately its just not all that often and that most shooters never know it anyway...


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 36276 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It has been known to happen..I suspect it depends more on the individual gun than anything else.


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 36276 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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http://forum.accurateshooter.c...t-challenge.3861880/
As far as I know, no one has ever accepted this challenge.

Here's a long discussion with a true expert who is a real life "rocket scientist":
https://www.24hourcampfire.com...php/topics/9398064/1


One shot , one kill
 
Posts: 197 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: 13 December 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It cannot happen. Pure and simple, it's against the Law of Physics (Thermodynamics)...and beware of all those "actually witnessing it"...there are many explanations than the simple and usual one... but again, Entropy cannot be cheated. Big Grin


------------------------------------------------------------------------
ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution
http://www.patagoniaballistics.com
 
Posts: 737 | Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina | Registered: 14 January 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by deadibob:
By the time a bullet has gone to sleep or stabilized in flight, the damage has been done. It is not a smart bullet and cannot correct it's course back onto the target.

Shooting more accurately at longer distances would be attributed to either focusing more on the target and actually shooting better or just damn luck. There is no way that 3 or 5 or however many bullets you just shot into a 1.5" group at 100 yards, is going to come back together and group tighter at longer ranges.

Now there is a chance the next group of bullets you shoot at 200 yards groups better than the previous group you shot at 100 yards.


All true^^^^

Zeke
 
Posts: 1357 | Registered: 27 October 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Interesting discussion. But I see errors in some of the "logic" presented here.

The question wasn't if group size can "shrink" at longer distances but rather if group sizes can be RELATIVELY better at distance.

For instance, if a rifle/ammo combo shoots a 1.5" group at 100 yards, (1.5 MOA) is it possible for it to shoot a 2.5" group at 200 yards (1.25 MOA) due to the bullet stabilizing? That's not a smaller group at 200 yards compared to 100 yards, but rather, a smaller deviation at distance due to the bullet's rotation settling down, all external factors being equal.

Possible. I don't know. But it's a more accurate statement of the original question than saying a bullet is returning to target.
 
Posts: 7658 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This is MY OPINION based on tons of anecdotal evidence:

It's all about the angle of departure and you're asking us to think for a minute whether the angle of departure can become SMALLER at greater distance because the bullet "goes to sleep" or doesn't have as much yaw.

I've seen some crazy stuff at long ranges but nothing to suggest that once a bullet "settles" that it knows which direction to travel to make the groups "smaller relative to distance". Perhaps when the bullet settles it has the same ability to make the group larger at distance.

I've seen that if a rifle/load is only capable of 1.5 MOA at 100 yards, nothing less than 1.5 MOA or 15.66" groups can be expected at 1000 yards.

I see where you're headed but I suspect we're back to that smart bullet again.

Zeke
 
Posts: 1357 | Registered: 27 October 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Two days ago I went to the range to get my 7MM STW sighted in. I shot four 3-shot groups at 206 yards and their average spread was 0.76 MOA. I shot a 3-shot group at 336 yards, a 4-shot group at 424 yards and a 3-shot group at 600 yards and the average spread for these three groups was 0.45 MOA. The best group was the one at 600 yards which was 0.36 MOA. The worste was one at 206 yards which was 0.93 MOA. This is not a very comprehensive test but I was a little surprised. There was a 5-10 mph headwind and I expected the groups to scatter more at the longer ranges, especially at 600 yards as there is about nine times as much wind drift at 600 yards compared to 200 yards given everything else is the same. I will not do any further testing on this issue as the barrel already has some throat erosion and I don't want to have to replace the barrel except if I wear it out hunting.
 
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