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Do loads ever group relatively better at further distances?
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Picture of Fjold
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quote:
Originally posted by ZekeShikar:
Those bullets are pretty smart to divert their path and move back into the groups!

I KNOW its possible for bullets to settle down and not produce larger MOA's at distance but to return to the group-center, thus producing tighter and tighter MOA at longer ranges is not physically possible.

If they're moving around then we should experience the opposite effect half of the time too...which we do because of external forced.

There are way too many variables at distance for me to believe some of this stuff.

Just my 2 cents,
Zeke


+1, Physics works, that's why there are laws about it.


Frank



"I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money."
- Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953

NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite

 
Posts: 11770 | Location: Bakersfield CA. USA | Registered: 30 December 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yes...is the answer..and for what ever reason it seems to me that .264 diameter bullets do it more than all the others combined... Based on being a range master at a benchrest groundhog match for 10years... The cartridge that seems to be involved the most is the 6.5/284..maybe it's just an anomaly.
 
Posts: 2203 | Registered: 25 June 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Gustavo
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People may observe "smaller" groups at a distance when measured in angular units...but not when using a linear unit...which is the absolute and right way to see this "phenomena"

It's simply impossible to get a smaller dispersion (linearly speaking) as range increases.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution
http://www.patagoniaballistics.com
 
Posts: 737 | Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina | Registered: 14 January 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have heard this several times before. It is physically impossible for this to happen unless you have a smart bullet with a guidance system that can direct itself back on target.

How can you compare the same group of shots at different ranges. I think what is happening is the shooter is concentrating more on the longer shots and actually shooting better groups further out. Either that or just that when shooting groups you always get some better than others and as luck would have it somedays, the better groups just happen to be the ones further out.


We knew the FBI couldn't be trusted when they aborted the 10mm.
 
Posts: 529 | Location: Utah | Registered: 30 January 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Maybe one of those..what do you call it...URBAN LEGENDS...

Has ANYONE actually fire a scientifically accurate set of data with ONE of those questionable rifles/CALIBERS over a period of time and a statistically significant number of groups...THEN...compared it several other rifles at the various ranges to see if anything ACTUALLY CORRELATES.

...NOT VERY LIKELY...Physical law speaking I can't see it happening...BUT...I would like to see the data IF someone actually PROVES IT.

Otherwise the conjecture is just an alibi shot or something to CYA. NO FLAME OR DISS INTENDED OR IMPLIED.

What did the smart guy say...an OBJECT will continue in a straight line unless acted upon by an outside force...maybe there is some kind of outside force Dark Energy being used by cheaters to get their bullets to diverge from a bad shot and converge up in the X ring instead of the 6 ring. Roll Eyes Big Grin

LUCK(not needed, I have Dark Energy in my pocket) beer
 
Posts: 1211 | Registered: 25 January 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Bill/Oregon
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So, it is not possible for a bullet to become more stable in flight than it was at the muzzle?


The language of God is science.
 
Posts: 13110 | Location: Alamogordo, NM | Registered: 03 June 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think a few posters need to study F.W.Mann's work. The title of the book is "The Bullets Flight, the ballistics of small arms".
It is available in a PDF format on Google Books
 
Posts: 2123 | Location: Whittemore, MI, USA | Registered: 07 March 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
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Why don't you just tell us what it says on the subject.


Mike



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 100 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 9238 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Give a man the answer, and he'll know 1 thing.
Teach a man to find the answers, and he'll know many things.
 
Posts: 2123 | Location: Whittemore, MI, USA | Registered: 07 March 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
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Tis the season of giving.

As opposed to, I know the answer but I am not going to tell you.
That’s just...well I let others fill in the blank.


Mike



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 100 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 9238 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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No, Bill...I don't think it is an either/or answer or what is being said(forget the tongue in cheekiness).

There are a lot of theories about bullets "going to sleep" and "bullet stability"...somewhere along the linear distance there is some of "all the stuff" being right and/or wrong, but NOTHING is totally one way or the other at ANY time...just somewhere along that number line.

I've NEVER read or seen any up to date testing involving high speed photography, but there is a lot of empirical data showing the bullet impacting the targets at very long ranges straight on just like at short ranges...NO oblong holes showing the bullets hitting at angles...implying the bullet was pointing downwards...except when the bullet was "impacted by outside forces". I would appreciate being given any references/photographic or otherwise that I can read that ACTUALLY shows the phenomenon...otherwise it's just conjecture, he said/she said or hearsay.

So absent empirical evidence to the contrary...in my mind the bullet is pointing in the same direction as it was when it exited the barrel...in the case of very long ranges the bullet is definitely pointing in an upward angle to compensate for gravity, but I DON"T think it changes angles in the air and starts pointing downward at some point in its flight...although I would expect the holes to be somewhat oblong.

That being said I haven't seen holes like that in any of my targets out to ~ 1000 yds, unless the bullet was really not stabilized and those bullet were mostly way the heck and gone outside the group...I've had unstabilized bullets go in sideways or miss a 4' x 4' target at 50 yds and less and "over-stabilized" i.e. spinning so fast they blow apart, before they go 30 yds.

BUT I'm open to scientifically determined evidence that give a complete answer...NOT just theory. In today's world "theory" is being overturned on a daily basis and absent good, empirical data I have only my own, observational data to use.

BASICALLY...I'm just not sold by the rhetoric.

LUCK beer
 
Posts: 1211 | Registered: 25 January 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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A quick call to Sierra and speaking with one of their ballisticians would most likely clear up any "unknowns" on the subject at hand. Just a suggestion.
 
Posts: 1050 | Location: S.Charleston, WV | Registered: 18 June 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Ghubert
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quote:
Originally posted by Tailgunner:
Give a man the answer, and he'll know 1 thing.
Teach a man to find the answers, and he'll know many things.


thanks for heads up, fascinating book!

http://castpics.net/subsite2/C..._powder_to_targe.pdf
 
Posts: 11723 | Location: London, UK | Registered: 02 September 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of BaxterB
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There’s a book called Fooled by Randomness. Maybe this is what he was talking about...
 
Posts: 6445 | Registered: 31 January 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I had a 1-in-9" twist in a 7MM Weatherby barrel and it shot around 1-MOA groups at 200 yards but 1.5 MOA at 100 yards with Sierra 160-gr boatails. My son-in-law's .308 AR shoots 1.25 MOA groups at 100 yards ans .7 MOA groups at 335 yards. Anyway, I beleive.
 
Posts: 257 | Registered: 25 November 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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