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Marlins and Savages vs. Winchesters
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I'm sure it it just me, but I prefer the "before" version!



Don't limit your challenges . . .
Challenge your limits


 
Posts: 3942 | Location: TN USA | Registered: 17 March 2002Reply With Quote
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Still feel the same way? Big Grin


Mike

An ounce of experience is worth a pound of theory.
 
Posts: 11140 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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It's beautiful.

If it was mine, I would have kept the magazine full-length though.

And don't ask me why, since al but one of my rifles are single-shots...
 
Posts: 138 | Location: South Africa | Registered: 28 April 2020Reply With Quote
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WOW! WOW! WOW! Beautiful rifle! I LOOOOOOOOOVE it! tu2 tu2 tu2 tu2 tu2
 
Posts: 15910 | Registered: 04 April 2005Reply With Quote
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x 2, great work!


Never mistake motion for action.
 
Posts: 13716 | Location: Austin, Texas | Registered: 11 March 2013Reply With Quote
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The coloring of the M73 Turnbull rifle makes me feel as though I've entered the doors of perception.
 
Posts: 4194 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 31 March 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Peter Connan:
It's beautiful.

If it was mine, I would have kept the magazine full-length though.

And don't ask me why, singe al but one of my rifles are single-shots...


I admit that I’m a sucker for a half, or even better, a button magazine. They just look right. Who needs more than 4-5-6-7 rounds, anyway?

I think it started when as a kid I saw Paul Newman in Elmore Leonard’s Hombre. That short barreled, button magazined 1873 he carried and shot so well did make an impression on me.

It was the first time I had seen one, but not the last. Cool

My Marlin has a half magazine. My Savage has its internal, integral, rotary magazine. It has essentially the same aesthetics as a button mag.

My Winchesters have button magazines.

See a trend? tu2


Mike

An ounce of experience is worth a pound of theory.
 
Posts: 11140 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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Like I said, just personal preference and I have no intention of changing anybody's mind. Certainly, for any normal hunting purpose one shouldn't ever need more than just a couple.

But to me, the lever action has always been "That darn Yankee rifle you can load on Sunday and shoot all week". Mine is a 10-shot carbine which, in a country that makes ownership of semi-auto rifles or carbines as difficult as they feel they can get away with, I feel it's a great home-defence weapon (much better than any handgun), and I feel much happier with ten than with 5.
I would love to one day supplement it with a rifle-length 1873 in .45 Colt, but I have no legitimate need for it.
 
Posts: 138 | Location: South Africa | Registered: 28 April 2020Reply With Quote
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Peter,
My "home defense " carbine is a M1892 chambered in .357 Magnum. It has taken hogs, deer, and varmints and is kept handy indoors loaded with 125 grain JHP for close range varmints. Smiler


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Posts: 1873 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 25 May 2009Reply With Quote
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There is no doubt that far, far more full magazine rifles went out of the factory doors over the years than those with half or button magazines.


Mike

An ounce of experience is worth a pound of theory.
 
Posts: 11140 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by crshelton:
Peter,
My "home defense " carbine is a M1892 chambered in .357 Magnum. It has taken hogs, deer, and varmints and is kept handy indoors loaded with 125 grain JHP for close range varmints. Smiler


Mine is actually very similar. A Rossi Puma (based on the '92) in .44-40, with a receiver-mounted peep-sight very similar to yours but home-made.

It has taken Warthog, Impala and Vervet monkeys (varmints in some places)…

Cool
 
Posts: 138 | Location: South Africa | Registered: 28 April 2020Reply With Quote
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I am doing some preliminary work on my Model 1894 before sending it off to Turnbull.

The bore of the barrel of this 121 year old rifle is dirtier than the bore of any other rifle I have ever seen.

It was advertised as "dark but may clean up."

Well, it was dark to the point that the rifling was invisible. But it is indeed cleaning up.

The first four patches soaked with Ed's Red came out pure green, tinged with black.

I soaked the bore in Wipe Out overnight and the next four patches came out pure and faded blue.

Then I used Carb Out and the next eight patches came out pure black to grey.

Then I ran some more Ed's Red, and finally brake cleaner through it.

The good news is that it's working.

Very slowly, though.

I think the notion of cleaning the bore was an idea that seldom passed through the minds of this rifle's prior owners.

I have just swabbed the bore with Wipe Out Accelerator, followed by another fill up with Wipe Out. I'll let it work for 24 hours or so.

I am hoping that, back in the days when mercuric/corrosive primers were still in vogue, somebody may have swabbed the bore of this old girl maybe just enough to keep the pitting at bay.

But I have not yet scrubbed down through the archeological strata far enough to know for sure!


Mike

An ounce of experience is worth a pound of theory.
 
Posts: 11140 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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Every day since my last post I have cleaned this rifle.

Patches are still coming out solid black and blue!

Copper and carbon have been deposited in this rifle's bore like archeological strata starting decades and decades ago. I question whether this rifle was ever cleaned.

Disassembling the action was also a royal pain. Everything was more or less frozen together with blackened gunk. I used a lot of Kroil and elbow grease, and finally got everything apart.

Several years ago, I bought one of those Nepalese Martini-Henrys that had been stored in open stacks in a filthy warehouse for decades. It was coated in freaking Yak fat and dirt, but I am not kidding when I say that it was easier to clean than this Winchester!

I'm beginning to wonder if I'll ever be able to scrub this bore to where I can see bare steel.


Mike

An ounce of experience is worth a pound of theory.
 
Posts: 11140 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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Getting serious. Using the JB bore paste now.

Impregnated in Ed's Red soaked felt buttons.

Alternating with Butch's Bore Shine on jagged patches and bronze brushes.

Patches are still coming out black.

Rifling is frosted, but coming through the crud.


Mike

An ounce of experience is worth a pound of theory.
 
Posts: 11140 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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Well, nothing will dissolve this impacted carbon. I have tried Butch's Bore Shine, Shooter's Choice, Sweet's, Brakleen, Carb Out, Hoppes No. 9, Hoppe's No. 9 Bench Rest, Wipe Out (with and without Accelerator), Ballistol, M-Pro 7, Clenzoil and Ed's Red.

The only thing that works is a bronze brush (I have already turned 11 .30 caliber brushes into .28 caliber brushes) combined with Hoppes No. 9, Hoppe's No. 9 Bench Rest or Ed's Red.

Also, JB Bore Compound works - best when applied to a Kroil wetted, tightly fitting patch and pushed down the bore a few times, from the breech to the muzzle. Then followed up with a bronze brush wetted with any of Hoppes No. 9, Hoppe's No. 9 Bench Rest or Ed's Red and then with dry patches until clean.

I have used up hundreds and hundreds of patches, and, as I say, 11 bronze brushes so far.

Not getting any blue anymore. Only black and lots of it.

None of the copper solvents, including Wipe Out, is doing any good anymore, except that Hoppe's No. 9 Bench Rest continues to work.

The good news is that the rifling is looking better and better. I am pretty sure I can save this barrel. The test will be when the barrel is clean down to bare steel, the rifle is reassembled, and I take it to the range.


Mike

An ounce of experience is worth a pound of theory.
 
Posts: 11140 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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After this you will be qualified to write a book on gun cleaning! lol


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Posts: 2328 | Location: Washington (wetside) | Registered: 08 February 2005Reply With Quote
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If the title hadn’t already been taken, I’d call the book Dirty Jobs.

I’m making slow progress. But I’m still getting pitch black patches. This is nuts.


Mike

An ounce of experience is worth a pound of theory.
 
Posts: 11140 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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Patches are still coming out pitch black.

I think I must be down to the 1910-ish layer.

I wonder if I could resort to carbon-dating? Big Grin


Mike

An ounce of experience is worth a pound of theory.
 
Posts: 11140 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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Big Grin rotflmo
 
Posts: 138 | Location: South Africa | Registered: 28 April 2020Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Patches are still coming out pitch black.

I think I must be down to the 1910-ish layer.

I wonder if I could resort to carbon-dating? Big Grin


Must be hitting the fossil layer - keep chipping!
diggin


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Roger

A tyrant needs just three things to be successful; a percieved enemy, a gullible public and a head start.

*we band of 45-70ers*
 
Posts: 2328 | Location: Washington (wetside) | Registered: 08 February 2005Reply With Quote
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I am about to give up. A new barrel will likely be part of the restoration.

Got my Cody Museum letter today, and it turns out that the rifle was made in 1902. It is in original form, i.e., a rifle in .30 caliber with a 1/2 octagon barrel, a 1/2 magazine and a plain trigger.

They left off the part about having never been cleaned! Frowner

I think the buyer and subsequent owners must have thought the new-fangled smokeless powder, and the new-fangled nickel steel barrel, especially for smokeless powder, made it unnecessary ever to clean the rifle!


Mike

An ounce of experience is worth a pound of theory.
 
Posts: 11140 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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How does the rifle shoot now, Michael?

I've got an old Greek Mannlicher Schoenauer that is rather dark in the bottom of the rifling but it still shoots quite well.
 
Posts: 4194 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 31 March 2009Reply With Quote
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The rifling is badly worn - not sharp, all edges rounded - and my bore scope shows the bore as black. It’s either pitted or still crusted with baked on carbon, I can’t tell which. Probably both.

Patches are still coming out filthy.

I will try to clean it some more, and finally shoot it to test its accuracy - just for the hell of it - before I send it off for restoration.

Sadly, though, I don’t expect much. I am coming to the conclusion that this barrel has been ruined by neglect.


Mike

An ounce of experience is worth a pound of theory.
 
Posts: 11140 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
quote:
Originally posted by dpcd:
Some facts;
1: Marlin is and always was, a superior design to any model Winchester. except the 95. Stronger, and for those so inclined, scope friendly; of course early on that was not a design consideration. Now, guys like their Winchesters, as do I.
Savage 99s are another thing altogether. Not in the same category as slim saddle rifle by any means, but a great rifle.
2: You can put whatever you want on anything, for your own use. It is only when you start selling them commercially, do you get into trouble. So, go for any logo you want, tattooed on your chest. Or rifle.


If this is the case for strength, why are there no Marlin or Savage rifles in 454 Casull? The 92 on which the Puma is based is a Winchester design...right?


You got that right sir. The 1886 is far stronger then a Marlin 1895. Don't let anyone tell you different.
 
Posts: 662 | Registered: 15 May 2018Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
The rifling is badly worn - not sharp, all edges rounded - and my bore scope shows the bore as black. It’s either pitted or still crusted with baked on carbon, I can’t tell which. Probably both.

Patches are still coming out filthy.

I will try to clean it some more, and finally shoot it to test its accuracy - just for the hell of it - before I send it off for restoration.

Sadly, though, I don’t expect much. I am coming to the conclusion that this barrel has been ruined by neglect.


You should have tried plugging the bore and filling it with ATF and let sit a week or more. That stuff is amazing.
 
Posts: 662 | Registered: 15 May 2018Reply With Quote
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The Winchester and Marlin guns chambered for such hot little numbers as the.307 and .356 WILL WORK WONDERFULLY WELL WITH THOSE CARTRIDGES, provided they are not 'hot-rodded.'

There is a TREMENDOUS difference between 52,000 psi and 65,000 psi (or CUP, if that is the term in your head -- although they are NOT the same.)

Rapid acceleration to 65,000 psi, using even slow-burning pistol powders, such as W-296/H-110, produces a significant SHOCK to all parts of the gun, which leads to battering of loose-fitting parts, such as Jim mentioned. Even closely-fitted mechanisms have SOME play, or they won't work -- line-to-line fit has a tendency to bind things up in a hurry, particularly when you introduce a little HEAT into the equation.

Is a new Marlin 336 "stronger" than a solid, sound Winchester Model 1886 or 1892? NO...

The Marlin may (or not) be made of stronger materials, but the DESIGN of the locking mechanism is not as stout as that of the '86 or '92 Winchester. THAT is why in all the .454 test programs I'm aware of, the Marlins failed SOONER than the various Winchesters, when subjected to the pressures generated by the .454 Casull round -- somewhere in the vicinity of 62,500 to 65,000 psi. FAR BEYOND stresses ANY of those rifles were originally designed to encounter.

Lastly -- Just because John Browning designed the 1894 AFTER he had already built the '86 and the '92 DOES NOT MEAN that it is in any way an "improvement" over either of its predecessors. It is DIFFERENT -- it employs a different lockup, albeit on the same principle, and its lever's toggle linkage is a clear departure from its ancestors' mode of operation as well.

The idea was to put a smaller-diameter cartridge - of approximately the same overall length as those used in the '86 - into a lighter, trimmer receiver, which the '94 accomplishes very well. The '94 is NOT Browning's strongest or best-engineered lever-action rifle. He set the mark with the '86, and everything else that came after was intended to fill in all the gaps around the OUTSIDE, as it were, of the '86's PERFECT mechanism AND to protect Winchester's position in the market.

SCORES of rifle mechanisms were designed and patented by the Browning’s, and the patents SOLD to Winchester, with that one idea in mind. Browning's genius for getting around his own patent claims saved the day for the Big Red W time after time.
 
Posts: 662 | Registered: 15 May 2018Reply With Quote
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Although I own and use all three designs I would say history and the collective intelligence has decided which design has proven superior.


Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship
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Posts: 3840 | Location: Bristol Bay | Registered: 24 April 2004Reply With Quote
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Definitely going with a replacement barrel. Turnbull will install a newly made one. Half octagon and 26 inches in length - identical to the original in profile.

They will even roll stamp it with all factory markings, just like the original. But they will also stamp the name “Turnbull” on it so that it won’t be mistaken, and can’t be misrepresented, as an original.

This barrel has been sadly and totally neglected all the way to hell.


Mike

An ounce of experience is worth a pound of theory.
 
Posts: 11140 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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Ive seen a few double rifles and some old win. that you could clean every day for months on end and never get a clean patch..Some of them shot great btw..

My trapper saddle ring carbine in 30-30 and and my SRC in 25-35 are prime examples. The 30-30 an inch or under and two inches for the 25-35 both have horrid barrels..I have one 10 shot target that is a hair less than 3 inches shot with my 25-35...Ive owned many of the same with good barrels that shot 4 or 5 inches, go figure. If you get one with a terrible barrel, go shoot it before you judge it.

There are many English double rifles with black bores that shoot great, and some that don't..but most do has been my experience.


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 37185 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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As I have said, I will shoot it, but I don't have high hopes.

Even if it shoots okay, I will replace the barrel as part of the restoration to new condition. This one is just too ugly!

Unlike the star of another of my favorite Winchester ads:



Mike

An ounce of experience is worth a pound of theory.
 
Posts: 11140 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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Looking forward to seeing it when it's finished.

The rifle I mean......... Wink


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Roger

A tyrant needs just three things to be successful; a percieved enemy, a gullible public and a head start.

*we band of 45-70ers*
 
Posts: 2328 | Location: Washington (wetside) | Registered: 08 February 2005Reply With Quote
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Well, I tried some more. As was suggested above, I soaked the bore for a week in pure ATF.

Nothing. No change.

Then I mixed up some Ed's Red Plus and swabbed and brushed the bore with that ammoniated mixture ad infinitum.

Nothing. Still dark and ugly.

Now, I may be down to the dark, bare steel and pitting, but it's hard to tell. (JB still produces black on the patches, but that may be JB residue, and not carbon.)

Anyway, on Sunday, I finally surrendered and put the rifle back together (that carrier is a pain to get back in there!), and next step is to take it to the range, purely out of curiosity, to see how she'll do.

Then, off to Turnbull for a work over, including a new barrel!


Mike

An ounce of experience is worth a pound of theory.
 
Posts: 11140 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Don’t get me wrong. I am not a hater.

There are some Winchester advertisements that I do like very much.



Almost see all the way to the persian kitty in that one.
 
Posts: 6918 | Location: New Mexico | Registered: 10 October 2012Reply With Quote
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I prefer the 1894 Marlin to the 1892 Winchester by a lot.

I prefer the 1895 Marlin to the 1894 Winchester by leaps and bounds.

The 1886/71 Winchester is a wonderful rifle, and I wish Marlin would make a 1895 grown up version for bigger rounds like the 50-110.

The 1895 Winchester is a wonderful rifle provided you don't shoot full power loads with the curved butt stock. It is a hateful bitch at full power.
 
Posts: 6918 | Location: New Mexico | Registered: 10 October 2012Reply With Quote
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I have found that the Winchester Model 1894 is a graceful wand of a rifle.

It is light, well-balanced, and points very well for me.

Plus, the mechanics of it are a wonder. John M. Browning was truly a peerless genius of firearms design.

I took the old girl to the 25 yard range today, along with a box of Federal Power Shok 170 grain RNSP ammunition.

This is how we did.

Target

I had removed the open sights to clean the rifle. When I put them back on, I centered them as well as I could, and raised the rear sight three notches on the elevator.

The first shot is the highest one. I was holding dead center on the orange bull.

Five inches high and an inch left.

So, I tapped the rear sight rightward, just a fraction, with my brass hammer and punch.

Then I lowered the rear sight elevator one notch.

The next group I fired is just below the first shot. Four shots in just about an inch, pretty much centered and three and half inches high.

At this point, I'm starting to think to myself that this rifle and I can shoot - even if we are both old and worn down, and even if it is only 25 yards!

Then I lowered the rear sight elevator to the bottom notch and fired five more shots with a six o'clock hold.

The bottom group was the result. The flyer was called. Two inches high and dead center.

With a bore that is dark and ugly, but evidently clean enough to shoot lights out.

I didn't have time (it was getting dark) to back off to 50 or 100 yards, but I think this tells me enough to know that there is no need to replace this barrel.

Still, if I am restoring the rifle to as-new condition, I feel like I should.

Bottom line is I am amazed at how well this dark and worn old tube can shoot!

I half expected keyholes.

Remarkable.


Mike

An ounce of experience is worth a pound of theory.
 
Posts: 11140 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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Good for you and the rifle!


NRA Life Benefactor Member,
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Posts: 1873 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 25 May 2009Reply With Quote
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Great to hear it, Michael. If it's not too late maybe you could put off the rebarrelling, as there's much to be said for an original old rifle, in collecting terms.
 
Posts: 4194 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 31 March 2009Reply With Quote
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Thanks, guys. Even though this barrel seems to be accurate, I have found that a big downside is cleaning the bore.

It fouled heavily after only ten shots. I expect that's because of the pitting.

Since the rifle no longer has any collector value, and since I want to restore it to as new condition, I will definitely have Turnbull replace the barrel with a new half octagon one just like it.


Mike

An ounce of experience is worth a pound of theory.
 
Posts: 11140 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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Its your rifle, do as you please, your the only one it has to please, and a turnbull is never wrong!

I recently purchased a 99 Savage in 30-30 and custimized in the George Beitzinger shop of years gone by..Its a beauty with a straight grip and lever, awesome checkering on nice wood, rust blue out of this world and it shoots an inch to an inch and a quarter every time, 3 or 5 shots both..I bought it from rich on AR, its my baby for now..and its headed to Texas Monday after Christmas to tune up the whitetail population..

I have an affection for old Winchester 94, 95, 86s and a few others, as well as the older Marlins, and Savage 99s..I just like lever action guns, oh I left out Brownings but they are the new kid on the block..

My favorite winchester is a original 94 saddle ring carbine action and butt stock, straight lever, a custom rifle from Win with the double mark for custom as it has a mod 64 barrel, magazine, and forend, shoots 2 inches every time in a clover leaf..I call it my half breed 94/64 rifle..Someone on AR also has one of these rare guns. I goes in my Win. collection.


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 37185 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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