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One of the bigger shops should have one. They are very handy for leverguns in rifle calibres as most chambers have no throat. Leverguns in pistol cals are a different matter.

Kudu Bob has a range of reamers, including throating reamers. I tend to work around factory throats unless I have the barrel removed and throated in a lathe with everything dialed in. I'd also have a few dummies made up with various pills I expected to use and have the smith cut the smallest throat that will clear them all.

If you're intending to shoot cast as well I'd enquire as to the diameter of the throat reamer. I've slugged a few Miroku 45/70 barrels and they have been tight, around 0.457" groove diameter.
 
Posts: 312 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 19 June 2006Reply With Quote
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Thanks again. One of the gunsmith-forum guys opined that lengthening throats was no big deal - but maybe it is in lever actions?

It occurred to me that if I were to go that way, I might be able to get it extended a fair bit then load some bullets well out with a fair bit of powder behind (kind of ersatz 45-90) but only single feed those cartridges.

The .457 grooves remind me that having no rifle hunting in Japan seems to take a toll on their understanding of the art. Remember the Winchester U/O double rifles made by Nikko? Not only did they know nothing about regulation but some say they even welded the barrels together.
 
Posts: 3214 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 31 March 2009Reply With Quote
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If you select the right bullet designs in cast and jacketed, you can load to 45/90 length and they will cycle through the action. To my mind, leaving the rifle in 45/70 offers the greatest flexibility.

As I mentioned previously, a Lee FCD allows you to work around the throat restrictions. It just adds an extra step to the loading process.
 
Posts: 312 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 19 June 2006Reply With Quote
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I'll get on the phone Monday re throat and the FCD, and see what I can find out.
 
Posts: 3214 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 31 March 2009Reply With Quote
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Well, I've ordered one of those Lee Factory Crimp Dies and spoken to Kudu Bob about lengthening the throat. He would like to look at the rifle but is the other side of Mars so it might be a while before I get there. He would prefer to do it without taking out the barrel and says that if that works (and removing the breech block is not to hard), it might cost $150.

A mate suggests I just shorten the cases by about 1mm, after which the bullets shouldn't touch the rifling, even when crimped on the cannelure. This would mean reaching the velocities Woodleigh says are needed for expansion would be that much harder, as the powder space seems tight enough already.

Another problem I'll have if I don't get the throat lengthened could be the 12 rounds I have loaded already. I tried pushing the bullets deeper but one case got a bulge just behind the bullet. The only way I could get past the crimp in the cannelure seemed to be by tightening the round in a G clamp. I then tried to go farther in the press but the die actually pulled the bullet out again to the cannelure on the down stroke.

Maybe I can pull all the bullets but, unless I find something better than multigrips to grab them with, the bullets will get well scratched. Have found one of those flat pliers used for stripping electrical flex etc - might give that a go.

Thinking further along this line, I wonder if the projectiles could be just pulled far enough to undo the present crimp then reseated in farther and recrimped with the FCD when it arrives?
 
Posts: 3214 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 31 March 2009Reply With Quote
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S Man,
It seems that you have a good knowledge base, counsel (JFE), and services available, so why not just bite the bullet ( Smiler ) and upgrade your 1886 45-70 to a 45-90 with enough free bore to shoot any .458 bullets made? Then you can avoid messing with piddling stuff like trimming cases and seating bullets in or out; load what you want. JFE may have advice for you on such an upgrade.

With the Miroku 1886 .45-90, you can shoot anything from .45-70 on through .45-90 with good accuracy and safe pressures. I have killed most of my thin skinned game with factory .45-70 ammo and used the .45-90 for fun and heavy DG. I have noticed no drop in velocity or accuracy with the .45-70 ammo in my .45-90.

Just a thought - think ".38 special in .357 Magnum ".


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Posts: 1240 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 25 May 2009Reply With Quote
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It pretty hard to beat a 45-90, I found it head and shoulders over a 45-70 in killing effect or so it seemed to me at the time..I liked the 350 gr. Hornady better than any bullet of the time..Ihave not shot the 45-70 or 45-90 in a number of years so there may be some changes made over the years..I went thu a big bore lever action craze at the time, lots of fun hunting with those old levers and SS's..

I bought a cute 94 last week, A round barrel rifle (24") in 25-35, shoots good with what little Ive shot it, about 1.5" at 50 yards with iron sights..It'll probably add another inch for 100 yds..that's fine.

I will probably get a flip up peep from Buffalo arms, I have peeps or recievers all but one of my 94 carbines and I picked up a full inch in accuracy with that peep on my 25-35 and its fast on target..I suspect they work best for failing eyes..


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Posts: 33485 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Good advise from Jeffe, have the barrel removed and everything dialed in..its the only way to go IMO..I don't even want a barrel crowned other than in a lathe..


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Posts: 33485 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Thanks for all that. Yes, I am inclined towards lengthening the throat or chamber, though my mate who makes his own rifles from scratch is less enthusiastic.

Is getting the barrel out of an '86 a hard job?

Does leading (or gilding Smiler) of the chamber give much trouble if shooting .45/70 cartridges in a .45/90? I don't really feel the need to for those full-house .45/90 loads but would like to get the 405-grainers up to maybe 1800 fps or so.

Also, I know where I can get 45/70 cases for a dollar each; on the other hand I see .45/90 brass advertised at a special price of 10 for $150!
 
Posts: 3214 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 31 March 2009Reply With Quote
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Getting the barrel out? No problem!


The bullet has not fully left the 45-70 case when it reaches the rifling, so no leading.

Powder fouling, yes, much like shooting a box of 38s in a ,357 rifle (I do that too).
So routine cleaning is appropriate, especially after extended range time with 45-70 ammo.

A 400 grain bullet to 1800 fps? Use 52.5 grains of N133 in the 45-70 case to get 1883 fps with pressure lower than most other powders. If that is your top planned load, it is a no brainer.
You can push it on up above 2000 fps if you like.
A 400 grain solid of .458 diameter at over 2000 fps applied to a frontal brain shot on an ele will shoot through the head and on into
the body, so most any thing you meet up with in Australia should be no problem.


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Posts: 1240 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 25 May 2009Reply With Quote
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Thanks CR, I take it your picture is of a take-down version. Mine is just called a short rifle (has 24" bl).

A friend gave me a tin of W748, and since this is the only calibre I have that seems to like it, I'd prefer to use that up before going on to anything else. Looking back at Nick Harvey's loads I suspect getting 1800fps with W748 may be no easy thing, though, as the 59-grain load needed is the maximum for old Winchester 86 rifles, though higher loads are listed for the Marlin 95 and Ruger. Getting the powder in would be easier in a .45/90 but then we might need even more to get the same velocity.

However, if the lower weight of N133 better fitted the reduced capacity of cases trimmed back 1mm, maybe it would make sense for me to try before getting the chamber lengthened.

I have some Reloder 7, too, but it seems to make more sense keeping it for my 375 Winchester.

But now, having googled the VihtaVuori website, I see that N133 load you quote is their maximum for use in the Ruger No.1 and front-locking bolt actions. Are they just being overly cautious?
 
Posts: 3214 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 31 March 2009Reply With Quote
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If you really want a 45/90, Jim Kent in Toowoomba has a reamer. He built one for me a few years ago. Cases are dearer than 45/70 cases but they can generally be had for $2-3 each if you check around. Truth be told though, a 45/70 in a modern 1886 offers more flexibility and with the right bullets (bore riding designs) can practically match the 45/90.

The reason I advise caution with throating is that it is a very critical part of the chamber. If the throating is a little off centre then accuracy may suffer. Maybe not noticeable at 50mtrs but when you can work around the factory throat why even take the risk?

I find Reloader 7 and AR2207 to be a couple of the best powders for top loads in the 45/70. Plenty of other powders work well also.
 
Posts: 312 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 19 June 2006Reply With Quote
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Thanks JFE, for a moment I thought you had nutted it with the AR2207 ref., seeing that the ADI guide's 5th Edition loads for "Lever Actions" started where W478 finished.

Then I noticed the rider that they are intended for the Marlin 95 only. Other "antique replica rifles" were consigned to the "Trapdoor" table, in which the 400gr loads trail Nick Harvey's W748 listings. Worse still, ADI's lead, 405-grain loads are reduced to factory velocities.

Nick's basic-table loads for 2207 are even lower than that. I don't know whether he tested any or all or copied them but I have seen echoes of the W748 maximums elsewhere.

Is the Marlin 95 really that much stronger than the Miroku Win 86?

Much as I'd like to use up the W748, a new can of powder would be cheaper than extending the throat, but it would have to make real sense. A heavy load of AR2207 weighs much less than W748 but, being extruded, would it leave any extra space?

If I were to squeeze the maximum 62 grains of W748 into an ordinary case, it would be compressed and apparently takes the last three grains to lift the velocity from 1800fps to 1835, which hardly seems worth the effort or risk, to me. All the action, according to Nick Harvey's book, is between 58 and 59 grains, where the velocity appears to lift from 1680 to 1800fps. Those last figures are from two separate tables for different action types, of course, so it may be they were tested in different rifles.

I'm thinking at the moment that if I can reseat the bullets in my present W748 loads (going up to 57 grains), and they work OK with the Lee Factory Crimp Die, I might be satisfied.

If not, I might sacrifice twenty cases and shorten them by 1mm, maybe using CCI magnum primers next time instead of the Winchester WLR in the present lot. I may not get much more powder into the cases than that, but maybe it would yield more per grain in the tighter space and get enough velocity to expand the Woodleigh bullets at close range.

If no joy results, Kudu Bob is over there in distant Montrose Smiler
 
Posts: 3214 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 31 March 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Is the Marlin 95 really that much stronger than the Miroku Win 86?


rotflmo


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Posts: 1240 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 25 May 2009Reply With Quote
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Loading manuals don't distinguish between 1886 models. Early originals were made with 19th century metallurgy and are the ones that are limited to 28K pressures. It is for these older models that the warnings exist. Later originals were made with better metallurgy and would be fine but trying to explain all this is problematic. In order not to confuse punters all 1886 models are lumped together. There are already 3 power levels for the 45/70, so for some it was already confusing enough.

The modern Miroku made 1886 models are very strong, a lot stronger than the modern 1895 Marlins. Compare the locking system of the 1886 with that of the 1895.

The 1895 Marlin is simply a highly reworked 336, which was designed for the 30/30 class of cartridges. As a result it has a few areas where problems can develop with very high pressure 45/70 loads. Courtesy of Google it is easy to find examples of 1895 Marlins that have let go, normally around the bottom of the barrel and top of the magazine opening of the action.

Bottom line is you can safely use 1895 loads in your Miroku 1886.

Having said all this with R7 and 2207 and a number of other powders you can easily reach your target velocities with relatively low pressure loads (low 30's).
 
Posts: 312 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 19 June 2006Reply With Quote
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Jeffe, and Sambarman,
Why not simply rechamber to the 45-90 then you have the option to shoot 45-70 in it also..In a slow velocity gun it would be a good option I would think. In high velocity caliber it can create throat damage over the years supposedly, but Ive never noticed that to be fact..??


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Posts: 33485 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Ray, I tried to add a photo of various 45-70 vs 45-90 loadings to help illustrate my point but I'm not all that computer savvy and failed to upload the photo.

If anyone could assist I'd be happy to email them the pic and they could post it on this thread for me.
 
Posts: 312 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 19 June 2006Reply With Quote
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Thanks for all that, guys. I'll return to the books and see how much I can stuff behind the pushed-in Woodleigh. After that, who knows?
 
Posts: 3214 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 31 March 2009Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by sambarman338:
No good? Well, what about this?

Could I take the safety button out carefully and replace it with a piece of steel filed to the shape of the slot, the holding screw placed in the safety-off position? This would fill the gap while not fouling the sight base but be removable if a subsequent owner wanted to restore the safety.

I notice that most forum discussion on the rebounding hammer causing misfires seems to go back 10 years or more. Is it possible Miroku has rectified this problem in more-modern production? The spring-back on mine seems pretty soft and even the trigger seems light enough not to need fixing.


Take the rifle down to Kudu Services and he will do a great job of covering the safety slot/welding it up. Apologies read the rest of the thread Bob has been mentioned already.
 
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Thanks PC. If my reloading problems can't be resolved with the Lee factory-crimp die, I may indeed have to see Kudu Bob and I guess the sight matter could be fixed then. If in fact the sight strap is no thicker than the safety protrusion, I will not try fitting it over the button.

In the meantime, Brownells tell me my tang sight is only two weeks away - Marbles must have whipped up a new batch just for me Smiler
 
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JFE,
I will be happy to post the pic for you. I would also like to see the information in the pic.
I will send you a PM with my email address.


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Posts: 1240 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 25 May 2009Reply With Quote
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Posting for JFE:


With careful bullet selection, in an 1886 rifle, the 45/70 can equal the 45/90 and, to my mind at least, provide greater flexibility.

Starting from the LHS

45/70 with cast 415gr HP GC
45/70 with Saeco No. 019 cast GC (478gr)
45/70 with Lyman 462560 GC (545gr)
45/70 (Hornady case) North Fork 450gr CPS
45/90 with RCBS 45-500 FNGC (520gr)
45/90 with Hornady 350gr FN

All the bullets in the 45/70 cases above have a diameter of approx. 0.450" ahead of the cannelure. They can be crimped into the cannelure for an OAL of approx. 2.8" or less. They fit a factory, no throat 45/70 chamber and cycle with ease through the 1886 action.


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Posts: 1240 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 25 May 2009Reply With Quote
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I have a take down 86 (Japanese) in 45/70 that Doug Turnbull converted to 50/110 and removed the tang safety. I also changed out the bottom tang and put a curved lever and pistol grip stock on it and it is a great shooter.
 
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In the picture above, I recognized one bullet with which I am familiar and that I can highly recommend for the .45-70 and .45-90, especially for DG. That is the 450 grain North Fork. For our bullets testing in Africa, we had loads for the 70 and the 90. IIRC, the 90 load was just under 2100 fps and the 70 a bit lower than that.
Both were excellent penetrator loads.

On a frontal brain shot at about 20 yards, the
90 NF shot through the head and well into the
body behind. Similar performance at a slightly
higher velocity was the Punch, a brass bullet
with lead filled base.


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Posts: 1240 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 25 May 2009Reply With Quote
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Thanks y'all, you've certainly given me a few things to think about.

I'm interested in the statement that all those long-protrusion bullets worked in "a factory, no throat 45/70 chamber". Would that likely have the same dimensions as my Miroku/Winchester model, possibly about five years old?
 
Posts: 3214 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 31 March 2009Reply With Quote
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CRS - thanks for posting the photo for me.

The picture helps to visualize what I tried to explain.

Regarding your point about the North Fork CPS, if its loaded to the same OAL the net case capacity should be the same whether its a 45/90 case or a 45/70 case, so the achieveable velocity and pressure should be similar. This assumes the cases have similar construction etc etc.


quote:
Originally posted by sambarman338:
I'm interested in the statement that all those long-protrusion bullets worked in "a factory, no throat 45/70 chamber". Would that likely have the same dimensions as my Miroku/Winchester model, possibly about five years old?


I have a Browning 1886 (also made by Miroku) and they cycle through that rifle. When we catch up at the range I can bring some loaded dummy rounds along for you to cycle through yours if you like.
 
Posts: 312 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 19 June 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by JFE:
CRS - thanks for posting the photo for me.

The picture helps to visualize what I tried to explain.

Regarding your point about the North Fork CPS, if its loaded to the same OAL the net case capacity should be the same whether its a 45/90 case or a 45/70 case, so the achieveable velocity and pressure should be similar. This assumes the cases have similar construction etc etc.


quote:
Originally posted by sambarman338:
I'm interested in the statement that all those long-protrusion bullets worked in "a factory, no throat 45/70 chamber". Would that likely have the same dimensions as my Miroku/Winchester model, possibly about five years old?


I have a Browning 1886 (also made by Miroku) and they cycle through that rifle. When we catch up at the range I can bring some loaded dummy rounds along for you to cycle through yours if you like.



I have two 1886's,a take down in 45-90 26"& a short rifle 24" barrels,they are both Japanese,I just tried cycling a 45-90 round loaded with the Hornady 350 fn through the 45-70,it will not enter the gate,the gates are not the same on both rifles,might be different gate on a Browning.


DRSS.
 
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Thanks JFE, I'll look forward to that. We might be going some time late in the month, hopefully after I get the tang sight mounted.

What day of the week suits you best for the range?

Yes Bill, that gate thing might be a consideration if I have the rifle rechambered. In the meantime, I'll try to get some power out of .45/70 loads that don't stick in the leade.
 
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Bill - my Browning will also feed 45/90 shells through the loading gate but the shell loaded with the 350gr Hornady fouled (it was marginally too long). However the 45/90 shell loaded with the RCBS cast pill cycled easily.

The length that can be fed through the action can be tweaked a touch. I had this done on one I had built.

I bought my Browning used, but it doesn't look like it has been altered.
 
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S338 - this month is going to be a problem as my daughter is visiting. Generally I prefer to do weekdays at Eagle Park to avoid the weekend crowds.

I'm sure we can get your 45/70 cranking with some decent loads.
 
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The way things move around here, I probably won't be ready this month, either, JFE.

The only bullet mould I've got is one I've had for the 375 Win for 20 years but never used, so you can see my reluctance to get into that stuff.

Have you used the lipstick coating to limit leading, by any chance?
 
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I'd like get into the coated stuff but haven't got around to it. With the right alloy, proper sizing, a gas check and good lube, leading isn't really an issue at 45/70 speeds.
 
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At what velocity does leading become a problem? Is it mainly from melting of the base or just rubbing off on the rifling?
 
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quote:
Originally posted by sambarman338:
At what velocity does leading become a problem? Is it mainly from melting of the base or just rubbing off on the rifling?


I have shot a lot of cast with gas checks,I have pushed them as high as 2150 in my 470 without any signs of leading,but I did clean the barrel between switching from copper to cast.


DRSS.
 
Posts: 1686 | Location: MI | Registered: 20 March 2007Reply With Quote
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Leading can be caused by a number of factors but if you use an alloy appropriate for the pressure of your load, there is a good fit in the throat (a long throat is generally not a good thing for cast bullets unless it is properly filled), the bullet is sized correctly for the barrel diameter, a good lube is used and a GC fitted you can push cast bullets in excess of 2000fps without leading. I've pushed them to 2400fps but accuracy was so so.

While there may be no leading, a general observation is that cast bullet accuracy tends to taper off beyond around 1800 fps. This has more to do with internal casting imperfections. You can still get good accuracy at higher velocities, but it becomes harder to achieve.

If you want to do some additional reading on bullet casting below are a few links:

http://www.lasc.us/articlesfryxell.htm

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

http://castpics.net/dpl/
 
Posts: 312 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 19 June 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by JFE:
Leading can be caused by a number of factors but if you use an alloy appropriate for the pressure of your load, there is a good fit in the throat (a long throat is generally not a good thing for cast bullets unless it is properly filled), the bullet is sized correctly for the barrel diameter, a good lube is used and a GC fitted you can push cast bullets in excess of 2000fps without leading. I've pushed them to 2400fps but accuracy was so so.

While there may be no leading, a general observation is that cast bullet accuracy tends to taper off beyond around 1800 fps. This has more to do with internal casting imperfections. You can still get good accuracy at higher velocities, but it becomes harder to achieve.

If you want to do some additional reading on bullet casting below are a few links:

http://www.lasc.us/articlesfryxell.htm

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

http://castpics.net/dpl/



Yes some very good info here,I shot a lot of cast when I was still shooting my Sharp's single shots a lot,I never used BP,my guns were recent manufactures,I used smokeless exclusively,anything below about 1400 fps? no gas checks needed,anything above that? gas checks needed & no leading,I hunted a few times with the Sharp's,my velocity with a 450-550 gr gas checked bullet never went above 1700-1800 fps,I did notice accuracy dropping off with speeds any higher,in hind sight? I do not know if it was the increased recoil or some other factor.
When I got my first DR,a Merkel in 470NE,I used some cast to start off,I was only hunting pigs with the gun initially,could'nt justify the cost & recoil of the standard bullets used in that caliber,the cast bullets were accurate even upto 2200 fps & I did use them successfully on a few pig hunts,I was using cast performance products.


DRSS.
 
Posts: 1686 | Location: MI | Registered: 20 March 2007Reply With Quote
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I do use PB bullets and follow convention, keeping velocities below 1400 fps to avoid leading. I have driven PB bullets to over 1600 fps without leading but accuracy suffered. There are other tricks you can use like lube cakes, granulated polyethylene, cork or styrene plugs etc etc to protect the base but the gold standard is to use a GC for velocities over 1400 fps.

A gas check allows more latitude in the alloy you can use. The bullets can be driven faster and more accurately than PB bullets. A GC allows you to use a softer alloy, which is generally better for a hunting bullet. Mostly I tend to use PB bullets in handgun and practice rounds.
 
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Thanks for that, guys, a bit of food for thought there. Could the shortness in my rifle's throat be anything to do with provision for lead bullets?

As to accuracy fall off beyond 1800fps, could this be anything to do with the original move to jackets with smokeless powder. I used to read that bullets were thought to strip in the rifling at high velocities ...
 
Posts: 3214 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 31 March 2009Reply With Quote
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The throat will meet the SAAMI spec and of course the 45/70 was originally designed around lead bullets and black powder. The throating seems to vary a little amongst manufacturers. An early Marlin I have has a longer throat than my Browning.

Your point referring to bullets stripping in the rifling may be a result of using (undersized) bullets designed for BP use with smokeless powder. BP allows lead bullets to slug up whereas smokeless doesn't and smokeless can produce higher speeds.
 
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As to the lawyer safety, I had one of the new Win. mod.95 carbines in 30-06, and pulled that safety out and filled the hole with black glass to match the tang more or less, I would tig weld it normally, but wanted to see how it went first...It worked perfect and got a real work out to be sure...I have been told you have to recut the sear or some part in there, but I didn't need to...A couple of friends followed suit and there guns worked also...Maybe someone over thought the process and determined the need to recut whatever part it was.


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 33485 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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