quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:
2 brothers, Clair , in Saint Etienne built a semi auto pistol and a semi auto rifle in 1888, using the smokeless powder invented by Paul Vieille in 1886.

Many designs were around at the end of the 19th century when famous inventors put them together or had ideas of their own.

Some breakthrough were unknown, especially all those designs by the French that were not made public. The Rossignol direct impigement system was reliable in 1901 but until recently so called famous writers credited the Lungmann AG 42 for it and wrote that the French copied in in the MAS 49.
There are 17 000 meters of racks filled with archives at the National Center for Armament Archives. That's what is left despite WW2 destructions. it is a gold mine.
Until now, when one patents something in France, it is examined by the Ministry of Defense before publication. The MoD can preempt the patent. Between 1880 and 1940, most of the important discoveries were not published.
The MAS 36 steel formula is still classified, it incorporates some rare earth material and its tempering explain such a resistance for a small light receiver.
I have made some destructive experiments with Berthier and MAS, I just could not believe what I saw when compared to a Mauser.

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:
PS: the M16 that exploded in my hands was not that strong, it turned instantly into a piece of junk but I was sound and safe.

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:
PS: the M16 that exploded in my hands was not that strong, it turned instantly into a piece of junk but I was sound and safe.

The M16 started as a piece of junk....

I found a new MAS 36/51 was easy to lock up with normal pressure loads due to the rear locking feature. Much easier than you would expect considering the massive bolt and receiver.

quote:

Originally posted by TrapperP:
Always have a flash back to the story of "Do you recall this..." when we speak to blowing up a rifle action but have you ever heard the story of the imbecile that took a 6.5 Jap [Arisaka] and re-chambered it for 30-06, leaving the 25 caliber barrel intact, then proceeded to complain becuse of how it kicked when fired. Swaging down a thirty caliber bullet to twenty five and not blowing up the rifle! I have no way of knowing if this is true or not but I've heard it repeated many times.
Sort of makes you wonder how people can blow up rifles, doesn't it. "Case load of Bullseye" - I cannot even imagine the chamber pressure this would generate! And I would not wish to be in the same county when it was touched off, either!

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:
PS: the M16 that exploded in my hands was not that strong, it turned instantly into a piece of junk but I was sound and safe.

The M16 started as a piece of junk....

I found a new MAS 36/51 was easy to lock up with normal pressure loads due to the rear locking feature. Much easier than you would expect considering the massive bolt and receiver.

I don't own a MAS 36, but have a few friend that do. None of them had that problem and one even converts them to other calibers, like 45-70 which is going to have more back thrust then the original round. I wonder if you had a defective rifle that wasn't heat treated correctly?

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:
The M16 (and AR15) weak link, still today, is the bolt. The combination of the deeply recessed bolt face and the small lugs....they break. There are two companies here in the states working on what we call a "super steel" to make the bolt and barrel extension from. One is made and testing and to give you an idea it's an AR15 size bolt (not AR10) and can easily handle 308 pressures. So we will see. The most common steel for M16/AR15 bolts is the same old carpenter tool steel.

Ireload2

I don't totally agree the M16 started out as a piece of junk. First the soldiers were told it was a wonder rifle that never needed cleaned. So it wasn't issued with cleaning instruction alone cleaning tools. Then to save money the chamber and bore weren't chromed. Couple this with the jungle climate of Nam we can see why casings stuck in the deep pocketed corroded chambers. The first brass wasn't annealed correctly and couple this with the corroded chambered, it's easy to see why the extractor ripped through the case rims leaving the case in the chamber. Add to this that the cartridge was designed to use extruded tubular powder and the military switched it to ball powder. On top of that Winchester put 10 times too much calcium in the powder to extend shelf storage life the rifle fouled more and plugged gas tubes. The other faults I will give you, like the whimpy thin barrels that bent easy, the slow to adjust sights, the triangular handguard, the three prong flash hider that snagged brush. The rifle was fielded too soon before final testing and like I mentioned with the cleaning issue, fielded incorrectly.

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:
If someone makes 7.5 Mas brass from 7.5 Swiss, that's a chore and it explains why the bolt binds.
6.5 Swede is the way to go ( Lapua, no US made stuff that is wrongly dimensioned in the head area) or simply buying 7.5 French from Graf or other shops.

quote:

Originally posted by TrapperP:
I'm only posting this to prepare to ask a question:
"In 1886 the French Army introduced the Lebel Model 1886 using smokeless powder, allowing smaller diameter rounds to be propelled at higher velocities, with accuracy out to 1,000 yards; most other military rifles became obsolete. Its disadvantage was a tube magazine.

The German army introduced the best features of the Lebel in the Gewehr 88, also knowns as the Model 1888 Commission Rifle, along with a modified Mauser action and a Mannlicher style box magazine. This weapon was designed around the new "7.92 x 57" cartridge commonly known today as the 8mm Mauser; which incorporated the advantages of smokeless powder and high velocity. The cartride was rimless which allowed smoother feeding for both rifles and machine guns. The original bullet had a round head; several redesigns including the adoption of thespitzer bullet with a sharp point and boat-tail brought the cartridge to its current potency. Only later versions of Gewehr 98, or converted 88 and 98 rifles could fire the improved "S" cartridges."
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"This weapon was designed around the new "7.92 x 57" cartridge commonly known today as the 8mm Mauser."
Now for the question: Was this the 'same' ass the 8x57 we see today except for the diameter of the bullet, .318 vs .323, "i" bore vs "j" bore?
I have been told there were not two but three different 8x57 [actually, 7,92x57mm] but have never been able to confirm this. I do know the Germans had a variety of different loadings for the 7.932x57 during WWII but the cartridge was the same dimensionally.
Just another bit of data I would like to know for certain.