Has anyone out there necked up the .300 H & H to .358.....I know....it's the equivalent of the .358 Norma but my .300 H & H feeds so well with the taper of the .300 H & H case that I'd prefer to simply neck up the caliber and leave the taper alne.

Is there a name for this round?

It has two names:

The 350 H&H Magnum. ( named in England )

And

The 350 G&H Magnum ( Griffin & Howe )

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:
It has two names:

The 350 H&H Magnum. ( named in England )

And

The 350 G&H Magnum ( Griffin & Howe )

Interesting.....I did some checking and chamber reamers are available and also correctly stamped cases

I still have some original 350 G&H Magnum ammunition here. Also, I used to own a rifle in 35 Wells, Fred Wells' version...a necked down 378 Wby.

Gotta' admit it's a pretty cool round and idea, especially if you're a 35 cal. nut!

I own a 358 STA which is pretty close.

I want a 358 Norma also.

It never stops...

I know it has been done on the 8mm Rem Mag case. The 358 STA. I have always wanted to play with this. In a 358, I want a 270-275 grain bullet at 2600-2750 fps. The 358 STA does this.

Now all I have to do is decide if I want to rebore a perfectly good custom stocked Remington 721 in .300 H&H to .358 diameter.....HHHHMmmmmmmmmm

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Now all I have to do is decide if I want to rebore a perfectly good custom stocked Remington 721 in .300 H&H to .358 diameter.....HHHHMmmmmmmmmm

To the members of the loyal society of 35'ers, it's a no brainer!

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Now all I have to do is decide if I want to rebore a perfectly good custom stocked Remington 721 in .300 H&H to .358 diameter.....HHHHMmmmmmmmmm

To the members of the loyal society of 35'ers, it's a no brainer!

Did you mail it yet?

I used one for awhile in the early 1950s, its called the 350 Griffen and Howe...It had nothing to offer over the 375 H&H in my opinion..Mine was a pre 64 mod 70 super grade..I liked the gun more than I cared for the caliber...Not saying it wasn't a good caliber it was, and like the 358 Norma, as good as it is, it really has little to offer over the 375 or 338 for that matter, just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Now all I have to do is decide if I want to rebore a perfectly good custom stocked Remington 721 in .300 H&H to .358 diameter.....HHHHMmmmmmmmmm

So Vapo, what did you decide?

To rebore or not to rebore...that is the question. Philosophically speaking.

If you do, what will you go with: 350 H&H (or G&H), or 358 STA?

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Now all I have to do is decide if I want to rebore a perfectly good custom stocked Remington 721 in .300 H&H to .358 diameter.....HHHHMmmmmmmmmm

So Vapo, what did you decide?

To rebore or not to rebore...that is the question. Philosophically speaking.

If you do, what will you go with: 350 H&H (or G&H), or 358 STA?

If I go that way, I'd simply rebarrel the gun and keep the .300 H&H barrel so I could restore it if I wanted later.

I decided to see if my 9.3 X 62 would flll the bill for a larger bore elk rifle.....I already had it and it was to cost me nothing to try it out. The result was a lot of shoulder smack at the range and I didn't like it at all.....so decided to make lighter bullets for it. The result was positive but maybe not enough to write home about!

Much lighter bullets are available in .358 caliber and the idea of a necked down 375 H&H still appeals to me. Truth is I have way too many options to consider

1 Rebarrel my .264 magnum to .358 Norma mag
2 rebarrel my .375 H&H to .350 G&H
3 rebarrel my .300 H&H to .350 G&H
4 rebarrel one of my .30-06 rifles to .35 Whelen
5 sell them all and buy a .338 Win Mag

I find myself with far too many rfles.....far to much medical bills to pay and far too much desire to keep on hunting elk......besides It is a very cold winter here and far too much time on my hands to avoid the mental masturbation of finally arriving at the perfect rifle battery.

If I go the long case route I'll honor the American wildcatters over the British and name it the .350 G&H

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by surefire7:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by vapodog:
Now all I have to do is decide if I want to rebore a perfectly good custom stocked Remington 721 in .300 H&H to .358 diameter.....HHHHMmmmmmmmmm

So Vapo, what did you decide?

To rebore or not to rebore...that is the question. Philosophically speaking.



I decided to see if my 9.3 X 62 would flll the bill for a larger bore elk rifle.....I already had it and it was to cost me nothing to try it out. The result was a lot of shoulder smack at the range and I didn't like it at all.....so decided to make lighter bullets for it. The result was positive but maybe not enough to write home about!


If the 9.3x62 has too much recoil I'm thinking any of the big 35's will have even more recoil. Doesn't matter if you use the 358 Norma or the H&H case. If you are becoming sensitive to recoil maybe consider a 338/06 Ackley. Gives up very little to the 338 Win with 210 and 225 gr bullets and has a lot less recoil.

quote:

If the 9.3x62 has too much recoil I'm thinking any of the big 35's will have even more recoil. Doesn't matter if you use the 358 Norma or the H&H case. If you are becoming sensitive to recoil maybe consider a 338/06 Ackley. Gives up very little to the 338 Win with 210 and 225 gr bullets and has a lot less recoil.

Yup....I think that's very good advice. thank you.

350 G&H

Richj, thanks for posting the photo. I really like the history behind the 350 G&H and how it came to be.

You're absolutely right about the parent case feeding well! They're such a dream to work with. My only suggestion is that instead of 35/300 H&H you really consider the 375 itself. There are plenty of bullets available and many good loads from mild on up. Maybe more importantly however if you ever go to sell it there will be no comparison for prospective buyers between the two. Good luck and enjoy...

quote:

Maybe more importantly however if you ever go to sell it there will be no comparison for prospective buyers between the two. Good luck and enjoy...

I would guess that many more buyers would bite on a .375 H&H than a .350 G&H regardless of the parent case used.

The 9.3x62 with a 250 gr. bullet at almost 2700 FPS is hard to beat IMO, and recoil is about like a 30-06 with 220 gr. bullets or so it seems to me..Ive used it quit a bit...I also like the .338 win. and Im impressed with the removable muzzle brake on my Ruger African in .338 Win...it recoils like a 250 savage it seems....Since my hand injury Im sold of muzzle brakes and they are not all that hard to deal with if you go at them with an open mind...I even hunt with the muzzle brake these days afte 60 years of getting my butt kicked by big bores..Use simple ear protection, that you should use with or without a brake. Take some plugs for your friends that complain..

Maybe this would work for some of you..

Ray has a good point with the 9.3x62. He says he gets about 2700 fps with 250 gr. bullets. A 358 NM with 250 gr. is listed at 2780 with factory ammo. That's damn close.

I had Wayne at AHR bore out my 9.3x62 CZ to 9.3x66 mainly because I don't reload and I bought a TON of this ammo that a guy was selling on the net for $30/box. It was all Federal Premium ammo in 286 gr. SAF, TSX, NP, and BBS. It was advertised at 2550 fps and I asked Wayne to chrongraph the loads. He said (2) of them were running 2550, one around 2450 and the last at 2380. This told me that the round WOULD do 2550 fps, and this from the 23" CZ barrel. With that knowledge, I've hired Wayne to do his #3 package on it with a beautiful piece of walnut I picked out.

I am wrestling with this idea of making a 358 NM, and I already have a 358 STA.

But to Ray's point again. As I was weighing the idea of a 358 NM, I too realized how close my 9.3x66 was to a 358 NM. In COTW, factory ammo for the 9.3x66 is listed at the aforementioned 2550 for 286 gr. and 2750 for the 250 gr. The 358 NM factory ammo is listed at 2600 for a 280 gr. and 2750 for a 250 gr.

These two caliber loads are almost identical. But the 9.3 has a (1) larger frontal area, (2) uses less powder, and I assume then, has less recoil? and (3) my CZ holds 5 in the magazine, and 1 in the chamber. I assume a 358 NM probably holds 3 in a magazine?

Well, there you go Vapo. Even MORE food for thought. Sorry...

My .358 X 375 Ultra mag IMP.will push the 250 grain bullets over 3000 fps. but the punishment was too great for this old man so I gave it away. roger

See...there it is again...that ol' subjective/objective bucket of worms. Physics/mathematics and software programs will give exact objective numbers for energy/recoil for bullet weight/velocity/rifle weight but a persons subjectivity will always win out.

Tell someone your 392 Godawfulnutbuster kicks like a pissed T-Rex and they will jerk the trigger, involuntarily shut their eyes and cringe when it's their turn even tho' the recoil is no more than a 22 LR.

In my reality it doesn't matter WHAT size the caliber is...recoil increases directly proportionally with an increase in bullet/powder weight and/or velocity and inversely proportional to rifle weight and with/without a muzzle brake...

And I'm definitely in the same boat/age group as Mr bartsche when it comes to any cannons much over 338 Maggy size cases.

Good Hunting

It does get complicated in modern wildcatting, the established have all but covered the whole spectrum if one snaps and comes outa the fog!!

I have never been able to tell the difference in the advantage of one 300 over another or any of the .338s out there with a belt on them...Nor can I see any benefit in a big bore over a 404 or 450-400 for that matter, and the .375 H&H and 9.3x62 has served me as well as any other caliber including my .470 on Buffalo..A shot thur the shoulder has the same effect and if one thinks he can tell the difference he is just telling himself it must be so, the internet told me so!! I better go now, I keep my horse tied behind the barn so as to make good my escape!!

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I know it has been done on the 8mm Rem Mag case. The 358 STA. I have always wanted to play with this. In a 358, I want a 270-275 grain bullet at 2600-2750 fps. The 358 STA does this.

My interest in this round developed from my readings on Leslie Simpson, the great American 'African PH' of the 1920s. He opined to Colonel Townsend Whelen that the perfect medium African rifle would be a round that shot a 275 gr. 358 caliber bullet @ 2,500 fps. He was a famous Lion hunter and he thought this round perfect. The Colonel (or James Howe) responded with the great 35 Whelen. It fell a little short ballistically, and Howe upped the ante when he moved to the Griffin & Howe company with his 350 G&H, which was also just a hair short with its 275 gr. bullet at 2,480 fps (close enough!). But the STA is 'closer'...

All of this makes for great reading and intrigued me. Today, we have many cartridges that equal or exceed these numbers. One has to decide personally how much 'exceeding' is enough for himself. I tried my 35 Whelen on my last safari in Zambia. I was very pleased. And I will take it again. I love it for elk here in Colorado. But the spirit of Mr. Simpson would not leave my thoughts.

I have a 358 STA, but I wanted a standard length action that made up into a lighter weight rifle like my Whelen, but with Leslie Simpson's ballistics. Aha! The 358 Norma Mag. A 280 gr. SAF at 2,500 fps seemed easily attainable. One problem. Ammo. For a non-reloader, the 358NM was a bit problematical, but not insurmountable.

I then discovered the 9.3x66 which was loaded by Federal Premium with (4) premium bullets: SAF, TSX, NP, and BBS, all in 286 gr. The 9.3x66 is standard length, same size as a 35 Whelen or 358NM, and the rifle is just as small. I like that! Shoots a 286 gr. @ 2,550 fps. Recoil is more than a 35 Whelen, but less than a 375H&H. And it is Mr. Simpson's formula, but not in the magnum length action that the 350G&H required, or my STA. Small, light rifle that delivers a punch. Holds five in the magazine, one in the chamber. Available in good, premium factory ammo. Answer to a non-reloader's dream!

One fly in the oinment? Of course, it's availability of ammo in Africa. However, if we are comparing the '66 to the Whelen, STA, or G&H, they are all in the same unavailable boat. In this light, the 338WM, 9.3x62 and the 375H&H make the most sense. But I've used those three in Africa already.

When Wayne finishes the work on my 9.3x66 (#3 package) at AHR, it will be time to plan my next safari with Andrew. He performed a #2 package on it for me when he rechambered it from '62 to '66. I then wanted to shoot it to see how it performed before I spent the extra money on nice wood, etc. of the no. 3 upgrade. I now have my Leslie Simpson rifle for Africa.

What a great excuse (and adventure) to use my new '66!

But, a 358NM would surely make an outstanding medium bore for the dark continent...

I too am intrigued by the 9.3x66. Like most Americans, I came to know the cartridge when Federal bought the round to the US. I think it is a nice balanced cartridge. I do not think any elk is going to tell a 250 358 from a 250 338. But for my own idiocy, I sling 250 grain bullets with a 338WM. I waited for Ruger or Winchester to give us a rifle in 370 Sako/9.3x66)just not a Sako fan). Then Winchester died and Ruger gave us the 375 Ruger and Hawkeye Rifle.

Three 375 Rugers later ( still have all three)the 9.3x66 and heavy 358 are still in my mind.

I think for the big firms there just ain’t enough room between the 338 WM and 375 to give us a heavy 358. So many guns, show many places to hunt, so few dollars, and so few days on this earth.

A local dealer at our gun show circuit bought about 200 rounds of 9.3x66 Federal Aframes. He keeps me in hard to find ammo. But I did not tell him to buy the 9.3x66. He has had that ammo for at least 4 years. Still has it if anyone wants it.

Thank thought for a day that Ruger might have gave us a 358 Ruger on a “full length” Ruger case. They did not even give us a full 338Ruger. I think Ruger really missed something not bringing a full family of cartridges on a full length 375 Ruger case. But what do I know.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I too am intrigued by the 9.3x66. Like most Americans, I came to know the cartridge when Federal bought the round to the US. I think it is a nice balanced cartridge. I do not think any elk is going to tell a 250 358 from a 250 338. But for my own idiocy, I sling 250 grain bullets with a 338WM. I waited for Ruger or Winchester to give us a rifle in 370 Sako/9.3x66)just not a Sako fan). Then Winchester died and Ruger gave us the 375 Ruger and Hawkeye Rifle.

Three 375 Rugers later ( still have all three)the 9.3x66 and heavy 358 are still in my mind.

I think for the big firms there just ain’t enough room between the 338 WM and 375 to give us a heavy 358. So many guns, show many places to hunt, so few dollars, and so few days on this earth.

A local dealer at our gun show circuit bought about 200 rounds of 9.3x66 Federal Aframes. He keeps me in hard to find ammo. But I did not tell him to buy the 9.3x66. He has had that ammo for at least 4 years. Still has it if anyone wants it.

Thank thought for a day that Ruger might have gave us a 358 Ruger on a “full length” Ruger case. They did not even give us a full 338Ruger. I think Ruger really missed something not bringing a full family of cartridges on a full length 375 Ruger case. But what do I know.

Interesting comments LHeym500.

I too, and others as well, wished Ruger would have come out with a 358 Ruger. I'd take that over a 358 NM. But as you said, they didn't even come out with a full size 338 Ruger. I keep wondering if they will some day, but doubt it very much, especially in the American unloved 35 caliber.

Many here have said the 9.3x66 doesn't offer much more than what a 9.3x62 will give. Not being a reloader, about all I can buy for my 62s is a 286 @ 2,350. With the '66, I have bought Federal factory ammo of a 286 @ 2,550, all with four premium style of bullets. That's the advantage for me of a '66 over a '62.

Ruger probably feels they know they have a superior round in their 375 Ruger: 300 gr. @ 2,660. AND, it can be had in their African rifle which is a very slim & trim rifle that only weighs 7.75 lbs. It's a real winner IMO. Only drawback that I can possibly see, is that it only holds (3) rounds in the magazine vs. the (5) that I can get in my CZ '66, and the recoil is more than my '66.

By the way, you mentioned that your friend would like to sell that SAF '66 ammo. I bought a bunch of it at $30/box. If he is willing to sell it at that price, I'd be interested.

Surefirw: I will check with him when the gun show circus comes back around. He is out of Knoxville. I am sure he would. Last month when I saw him he had resorted to selling the ammo one round at a time. I bet he still has it.

Thanks LHeym500!

It took me many many years to figure out caliber is a fantasy world..bullet construction is the key to good killing rifles..the shooter has to to place his bullet, repeated many times but some don't listen, I guess it takes the fun out of it...

If I was to start all over today Id only take a 338 Win and a 416 rem to Africa (if DG was also on the minu) otherwise I take a 30-06. with 200 gr. Accubonds or partitions. But hey is was hell of a lot of fun using a different gun on every hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
It took me many many years to figure out caliber is a fantasy world..bullet construction is the key to good killing rifles..the shooter has to to place his bullet, repeated many times but some don't listen, I guess it takes the fun out of it...

If I was to start all over today Id only take a 338 Win and a 416 rem to Africa (if DG was also on the minu) otherwise I take a 30-06. with 200 gr. Accubonds or partitions. But hey is was hell of a lot of fun using a different gun on every hunt.

Well Ray, you certainly nailed the two most important aspects of successful hunting with a rifle, and that was bullet construction and putting the bullet in the right place. I also value bullet weight/caliber, but that's just my preference.

But you also spoke to the fun of trying out different calibers. And learning for oneself what each caliber/rifle combination offers. And yes, for me, that is the fun of it!

If we were just trying to be efficient, I bet we could both reduce our batteries to three rifles and be done with it, and probably end up with the same three. You liked the 416, 338WM and 30-06. I would be perfectly happy with those three myself. Perfect, and ammo availability would be no problem. My last two safaris have been 404 Jeffery/338 WM and 404 Jeffery/35 Whelen.

But I continue to pursue the 'fun' part also. I still need to take my 9.3x66. Since none of us are hunting Africa for subsistence, I think the 'fun' part is the only reason we all go! No one 'needs' trophy mounts and food is much cheaper to obtain here in the states. Safari is entertainment, and we gun nuts aren't very good at being efficent minimalists in our gun collections. If we were, I doubt we would come here every day to read AR!

Thanks for sharing the wisdom of your many years of African hunting Ray. I am most interested in your opinions and I really smiled when I read your comments on the 416, 338, 30-06 battery. Wise man.

But wouldn't you love to try out a 9.3x66......?

Ray put soundmoderators instead of muzzlebrakes on your rifles to tame the recoil.