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Gas Check Bullet use in BPCR?
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Now you are set. You can hunt anything on the planet with those two bullets in your 45-70. The 457121 has been especially accurate in just about any 45 caliber rifle I have tried it in. It is a stone cold killer, and accurate to 1000 yards and beyond. I shot it out of my Sharps in South Africa's Eastern Cape exclusively in 2010, and it is the bullet used to take the zebra in the youtube video. I also took two blesbok with it, one at 451 yards and the other at 307 yards using the same sights you show on your rifle. The zebra and both blesbok were one shot, DRT. A warthog at 204 yards and an impala at 140 also fell to the bullet, one shot through and done. It works!
 
Posts: 807 | Location: East Texas | Registered: 03 November 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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SR4759:

Surely we can do better than this sort of crap slinging.

Hey! This is a "BPCR" (Black Powder Cartridge Rifle) forum!
It is not a "SGCR" forum (Smokeless Gas Check Rifle) forum!

I am now like a whore in church, and I think YOU are going to hell unless you repent!

What do you mean binary alloys only? What was the secret alloy that the Original Sharps Company would not reveal the recipe for?

What about the Olde Sports in England who were alloying there cast boolit lead with more than just tin? That was pre-1882 (hint).

BPCR champs have been known to use wheel weights!

Wheel weights are not illegal in BPCR competition, but gas checks and smokeless are!

sharpsguy should not be wasting too much time on this, and I won't either.

Mine eyes have seen the glory ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have not tried the 121 bullet but found a good round 125 to be one of the easiest to develop a load for. One problem with lyman moulds was finding a good one.
 
Posts: 26 | Registered: 20 May 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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That 457125 has proven to be the deepest penetrating bullet I have found using black powder in both my 45-70 and 45-110 Sharps. It has never once failed to give reliable straight line penetration on any animal I have shot with it, and it has never failed to give complete pass through penetration. I shot a Black Wildebeast on a finishing shot in the left rear ham from 150 yards in 2007 with the 125, and the bullet exited out the chest. All in all, about 70 inches of penetration. I have shot through both deer and elk lengthwise as well with the 45-70 and this bullet.

The 457121 shoots a little flatter and seems to kill a little quicker, but in penetration tests it seems to penetrate about 10% less. All things considered, I usually shoot the 457121, but if I need all the penetration I can get, I go with the 457125. I have killed bison with both bullets, and both give complete pass throughs on both shoulders of these animals with a 45-70 loaded with 2f black powder.
 
Posts: 807 | Location: East Texas | Registered: 03 November 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Life is simplified when you swear off smokeless in your Sharps.
I'll save the smokeless and gas checks for use in a Ruger No. 1 and a Winchester 1885 45-70.

I now have 3 Model 1874 Sharps rifles:

1. 40-65 Win. "Silhouette" 30-inch, 11#-14oz. with tang sights
2. 45-70 Govt. "Hunter" 28-inch, 8#-12oz. with barrel sights
3. 50-90 Sharps "Long Range" 34-inch, 11#-12oz. with barrel sights

... Add 4 ounces for slip-on leather recoil pad to get my LOP with standard package stocks ...

... That should cover all practical and bore-envy needs. Cool

Dixie Gun works had two of the "Long Range" 50-90 rifles in stock until last Saturday, when I bought one, in person at Union City , TN.
I got up at 5 AM and drove three hours for some Saturday morning shopping.

Mr. Pedersoli himself, son of the deceased founder, was visiting there in person two days earlier, all the way from Italy.



Dixie Gun Works founded in 1954 by Turner E. Kirkland.
D. Pedersoli founded in 1957 by Davide Pedersoli.
Two very good years. tu2

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Nice set of rifles. What is the twist on that 50-90?
 
Posts: 807 | Location: East Texas | Registered: 03 November 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks! Five of the nine are 45-70 Govt.
One is a 30-30 Ted Williams made for Sears&Roebuck by Winchester, all the blue is worn off to silver.
One of the H&R 1871 "Buffalo" rifles is a 38-55 Win.

The 50-90 Sharps 2.5":
1:26" Twist, 6-groove, .512" groove, .504" bore. A 650-grain Hoch nose-pour mould was found at Midway. At least one mould was in stock, the Hoch handles are on back order.
I have no other Hoch moulds.
Thought I should own at least one, see for myself. I did live in Missouri for a while. Wink
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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sharpsguy,

What do you reckon would be the best Sharps 1874 rifle and load to try on cape buffalo?
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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RIP--I'm still wrestling with the answer to that question. For sure, the caliber would be 45-70, as it gives the best penetration of any of the BPCR calibers, especially inside of 100 yards. Bullet would be either the 457125 Govt. at 520 grains, or the 480 grain 457121 Lyman flat nose. I would cast either out of water quenched wheel weights for a bhn of 19-21 and load for an impact velocity of 1200 fps.

Either of these loads will give complete pass through and exit through the shoulders with no problem. On my last trip to Africa, I asked my PH whether I should use my 45-110 or the 45-70 when I went after Cape Buffalo, as he had seen both rifles at work. He immediately said to use the 45-70, as it had plenty of horsepower.

In another vein, you are on the right track in getting your 50-90 to shoot with the 650 grain bullet. My 50-90 has a 1-26 twist, and won't start shooting until the bullet weight gets to 650 grains. Its favorite load is a 669 grain paper patched bullet over 100 grains of 2f. It kicks a bit, but the round looks impressive in the cartridge belt! Have fun.
 
Posts: 807 | Location: East Texas | Registered: 03 November 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
SR4759:

Surely we can do better than this sort of crap slinging.

Get your humorless buddy to pull the corn cob out of his arrogant ass.


Hey! This is a "BPCR" (Black Powder Cartridge Rifle) forum!
It is not a "SGCR" forum (Smokeless Gas Check Rifle) forum!

You are being bound by an artifical set of rules that pertain only to BPCR compettion.The rules are not really consistent in they ban certain practice and look the other way with others. No one has to abide by those rules if they are not shooting in competition. 1. No gas check - but you CAN use a poly wad. Give me a break. They did not have polyethylene back then. 2. Use of chamber and rifling twist combinations that NEVER existed in the days of the buffalo hunt. 3. Original Sharps Borchardts are not allowed by the rules but any number of modern replicas are. No hammerless designs permitted.
I am now like a whore in church, and I think YOU are going to hell unless you repent!

I can see that but based on BPCR rules your church is full of hypocrites. BPCR rules are narrow yet inconsistent to suit the BPCR clique

What do you mean binary alloys only? What was the secret alloy that the Original Sharps Company would not reveal the recipe for?

You guys need to recognize a little sarcasm and humor. You can't be a black power only purist and [color:RED]not be purist in all things. The 3 part alloys like WW metal were not traditional. The lead tin alloys are traditional because they are easy to duplicate. Anyone can mix 20-1 time after time and get it right.
Antimony is not readily alloyed with lead because of its high melting point at 1167 degrees F. I don't think buffalo hunters could alloy antimony on a campfire. I think most diligent BPCR competitors use only lead tin alloys.

Driving yourself to a match is not traditional. You gotta ride a mule man.[/COLOR]

What about the Olde Sports in England who were alloying there cast boolit lead with more than just tin? That was pre-1882 (hint).

Hint hint I think you need to review the rules for BPCR competition. English conventions, rifles, cartridges and practice need not apply. 1. They permit only American design rifle actions 2. No hammerless designs - 3. No English cartridge chambers permitted (like all these narrow rules?) 4. The English alloyed mercury with their bullet alloy. Is that what you want to do?

BPCR champs have been known to use wheel weights!

Again I say - in the days of the buffalo hunts there were NO WHEELWEIGHTS. It is a non-traditional metal. BPCR rules are all about cranky old traditionalists that only want it their way. But they turn around and compromise when it suits them.

Wheel weights are not illegal in BPCR competition, but gas checks and smokeless are!

Well yeah but those are only the rules for competition. Who cares if you are not shooting competition? That does not mean the rifles do not shoot extremely well with smokeless and gas checks. BPCR rules are like various religious beliefs. They are whims of the old guard traditionalists that allow modern alloys and poly wads.
sharpsguy should not be wasting too much time on this, and I won't either.

Mine eyes have seen the glory ...



There is no reason to not use a gas check mold for general range use if your shooting is not built around BPCR competiton.
 
Posts: 13978 | Location: http://www.tarawaontheweb.org/tarawa2.jpg | Registered: 03 December 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Shorter barrel life seems to be one reason not to use smokeless and gas checks in the BPCR,
even if you do not give a hoot about about "BPCR Competition Rules."
That means even BP loads with gas checked bullets do no seal and obturate as well as a soft lead bullet.

Pedersoli spokesman says, as did sharpsguy:

"Today, we make replica BPCR with barrels having much tougher steel which could be said to have virtually zero wear...when used with BP and lead bullets. Many shooters using BP and lead can report over 10,000 rounds fired and the barrel retains original accuracy. One of my own Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70 has a bit over 10K shots through it and another has over 5K shots, with both having original accuracy today.

Smokeless powder loads and copper jacketed bullets do wear barrels in the throat and leade regions to an extent NOT seen when BP and lead bullets are used."

http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-...ak_in_procedures.htm

Seems like all makers of BPCR approve of smokeless loads only for 45-70 chamberings,
mainly because most factory ammo is safe in Trapdoors.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I never said a word about a jacketed bullet.
I only mentioned that if you have a good gas check mold there is no reason to not use it on general shooting.
I have never heard anyone allege that gas checks wear a barrel significantly faster.

I also think that statement is not telling the entire story. I shoot smokeless at the same velocity and pressure as black powder. The load in a 45-70 is 23 grain of 4759 with a 500 grain Brooks copy of the government bullet.
There is no way 23 grains of a clean burning powder will wear a barrel like shooting a 70 grain burning dirt clod out the barrel does.
The load I use in the 40-65 is 25 grains of SR4759 with a 300 grain NEI gas check bullet. The wimpy Lyman gas checks are only .007 thick.
I do not expect them to wear the bore.

My loads are very similar in performance to a very large 22 LR load. We all know the old mild steel .22 LR barrels will last a life time.

I have read that one of Harry Pope's 33-40 rifles was fired more than 30,000 times and maintained its accuracy.

I have more than a few BPCR rifles and wear of a well cared for barrel is about my last concern. I will never wear any of them out.

My most fired Browning has had a lot of plinking loads ran through it. It is a hunting weight rifle that I shoot 300 grain bullets through. A lot have been gas checked most were plain based. The load is 13 grains of a powder that I will not mention so knot heads don't hurt themselves. I have shot up nearly 3 pounds of powder with that load which is about 1500 rounds. I have seen no wear in that rifle and those bullets were an antimonial alloy (wheel weights) which is probably more abrasive than a lead tin alloy. If you are that concerned with wear I think that antimony would cause more wear than a gas check. However I do not know anyone that cares about the wear characteristics of either.




quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
Shorter barrel life seems to be one reason not to use smokeless and gas checks in the BPCR,
even if you do not give a hoot about about "BPCR Competition Rules."
That means even BP loads with gas checked bullets do no seal and obturate as well as a soft lead bullet.

Pedersoli spokesman says, as did sharpsguy:

"Today, we make replica BPCR with barrels having much tougher steel which could be said to have virtually zero wear...when used with BP and lead bullets. Many shooters using BP and lead can report over 10,000 rounds fired and the barrel retains original accuracy. One of my own Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70 has a bit over 10K shots through it and another has over 5K shots, with both having original accuracy today.

Smokeless powder loads and copper jacketed bullets do wear barrels in the throat and leade regions to an extent NOT seen when BP and lead bullets are used."

http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-...ak_in_procedures.htm

Seems like all makers of BPCR approve of smokeless loads only for 45-70 chamberings,
mainly because most factory ammo is safe in Trapdoors.
 
Posts: 13978 | Location: http://www.tarawaontheweb.org/tarawa2.jpg | Registered: 03 December 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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