THE ACCURATERELOADING.COM FORUMS

Page 1 2 
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
BPCR Long Range Capabilities
 Login/Join
 
one of us
posted
As you know, many BPCR shooters compete in Silhouette and 1,000 yard matches, but even without 34" barrels, duplex loads, and long tang sights, BPCR rifles equipped to hunt are still capable of long range shots.

Here a couple pix of Sharpsguy on his range at home in East Texas. The one group of 3 to 4 inches was made at his 410 yard plate. The kinbd of accurate shooting is not unusual, as attested by Gunner500, who has visited and shot at Sharpsguy's range.




The last group may be unusual, for sure! It's a 5 shot group of about 1" made at the same 410 yard target, using a Shiloh 45-70, 69gr of KIK BP, and a 507gr paperpatched cast bullet.


 
Posts: 19319 | Location: Very NW NJ up in the Mountains | Registered: 14 June 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
one of us
posted Hide Post
Photos of framed photos under glass, hanging on the wall in the reloading den?
It worked!
Amazing shooting.
Dead calm windage, and dead-on shooter. tu2
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
one of us
posted Hide Post
RIP--No, they are actually 8x10 photos I sent Biebs so that he could post them for me. I think he had to photograph the photos to get them in his computer to post them.

The 3 1/2 inch group, I do on a fairly regular basis with barrel hunting sights if I can get the light to co operate. That gong at 410 yards is a dead nuts duplicate of one of the targets at the Quigley match, and I shoot at it a lot. It is a 20x20 inch square 3/8 inch steel plate.

The OTHER group--Well, I have to be candid and admit that is the best group I have ever shot for 5 shots at that distance. I have never been able to duplicate it. I do have a picture around here somewhere of a 3 shot group on the same gong at the same distance that I shot with a 40-65 and paper patched bullets that goes 3/8 of an inch. I view groups like this as an indicator of the rifle and load's capabilities and gives me a look at what is possible. The 3 1/2 inch group is not that uncommon, as I usually shoot something along those lines a couple of times a week.

And I do appreciate the flowers.
 
Posts: 807 | Location: East Texas | Registered: 03 November 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
one of us
posted Hide Post
Once you work out the rainbow-like trajectory, BPCR's are capable of amazingly consistant long range accuracy.

Long, heavy barrels are one reason for the high level of accuracy and smooth bullets, unmarred by rifling marks (w/ paper patching) is another.

But there is some speculation of a more scientific reason for the legendary long range accuracy of BPCR and it goes something like this: The bullet of a modern, smokeless round leaves the barrel at supersonic velocity. At some point downrange the projectile slows, first to the speed of sound and then it drops to subsonic speed. The path the bullet takes is slightly altered during the super- to subsonic transition phase. The exact point downrange at which the transition occurs and the resulting effect on the projectile's flight path are unpredictable as they depend on a number of constantly changing variables such as temperature, air density, barometric pressure etc. The shooter can't fully compensate for this effect.

BPCR rounds are subsonic during their entire flight and don't go through the speed transition phase. The variables that affect accuracy are much more consistant and predictable.

Sounds plausable to me.


No longer Bigasanelk
 
Posts: 584 | Location: Central Wisconsin | Registered: 01 March 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
one of us
posted Hide Post
Yeah Biebs, Sharpsguy may not want me to repeat this but I witnessed him shooting a three shot group at his 500 yard steel ram, IIRC it measured a bit under two inches, dumbfounded the hell outta me, and I dont need much help. lol

JM
 
Posts: 789 | Registered: 18 February 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
one of us
posted Hide Post
Gents:
I'm amazed at the long range accuracy of the Sharps bpc rifles. Can anyone tell me if the English single shots have a history of such accuracy? Westley Richards, Alex Henry, Holland and Holland, etc., made some of the finest rifles on the planet. Are they, have they been, could they be, as accurate the the legendary Sharps?
Cal


_______________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
www.CalPappas.com
www.CalPappas.blogspot.com
1994 Zimbabwe
1997 Zimbabwe
1998 Zimbabwe
1999 Zimbabwe
1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation
2000 Australia
2002 South Africa
2003 South Africa
2003 Zimbabwe
2005 South Africa
2005 Zimbabwe
2006 Tanzania
2006 Zimbabwe--vacation
2007 Zimbabwe--vacation
2008 Zimbabwe
2012 Australia
2013 South Africa
2013 Zimbabwe
2013 Australia
2016 Zimbabwe
2017 Zimbabwe
2018 South Africa
2018 Zimbabwe--vacation
2019 South Africa
2019 Botswana
2019 Zimbabwe vacation
2021 South Africa
2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later)
______________________________
 
Posts: 7281 | Location: Willow, Alaska | Registered: 29 June 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
one of us
posted Hide Post
That Sharps with the long hammer fall is as bad as my RRB ! They can't be accurate !
 
Posts: 7636 | Registered: 10 October 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bigasanelk:

BPCR rounds are subsonic during their entire flight and don't go through the speed transition phase. The variables that affect accuracy are much more consistant and predictable ...


Nope. Speed of sound is about 1125 fps, at sea level, in dry air at 20 degrees C (76 F),
so anything over 1125 fps at the muzzle has to go through the sound barrier transition.
Even Cal's 4-bore.
Even my 50-70 with 450 to 500-grainers is supersonic.
My BP loaded flintlocks are supersonic with roundball,
close to Mach 2!
The closer to muzzle this transition to subsonic is, the greater effect any wobbles it causes will have at long range.

I'll buy the rest of it about long, heavy barrels and paper patching ...

Sharpsguy must surely be a Jedi Knight with mind control over the bullet.
And if part of that is that he can control the wind, then The Force is really strong with him.

holycow
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Even Cal's 4-bore.


Cal's 4 averages 1500 fps with black and smokeless and has past 1700 fps with heavy loads.
I never really thought of putting 4-bore an supersonic in the same sentence but I guess it fits.
Cheers and I love this new thread.
Cal


_______________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
www.CalPappas.com
www.CalPappas.blogspot.com
1994 Zimbabwe
1997 Zimbabwe
1998 Zimbabwe
1999 Zimbabwe
1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation
2000 Australia
2002 South Africa
2003 South Africa
2003 Zimbabwe
2005 South Africa
2005 Zimbabwe
2006 Tanzania
2006 Zimbabwe--vacation
2007 Zimbabwe--vacation
2008 Zimbabwe
2012 Australia
2013 South Africa
2013 Zimbabwe
2013 Australia
2016 Zimbabwe
2017 Zimbabwe
2018 South Africa
2018 Zimbabwe--vacation
2019 South Africa
2019 Botswana
2019 Zimbabwe vacation
2021 South Africa
2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later)
______________________________
 
Posts: 7281 | Location: Willow, Alaska | Registered: 29 June 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
one of us
posted Hide Post
Cal,

the Elcho Shield competitions were held in the 1870-1885 era. 800/900/100yds with iron sights.

The fledgling NRA in the US challenged the defending champion Irish team to shoot those same yardages here in 1877.

The Irish used breech/muzzle loading rifles. Charged case in the breech, and a naked (their term for grease groove bullets, VS paper patched) pushed down the barrel using a false muzzle and rod. They believed there was a serious advantage to doing their shooting that way. It did push all of the powder fouling back down the barrel and gave a consistent barrel condition.

Col Bodine won the match for the US on the last shot with a Sharps. The Irish actually lost it when their final shooter, on the last target, cross fired to give the US a chance to win.

I highly recommend the late Frank Sellers book for the history of the Sharps Rifle Company.
 
Posts: 23062 | Location: SW Idaho | Registered: 19 December 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
one of us
posted Hide Post
Cal--You pose an interesting question. After the 1877 rifle match to which ISS refers, the Irish team which was captained by William Rigby visited the Sharps factory. Seven of these men , including Mr. Rigby, bought Sharps rifles for their own use. Sgt. Gilder of the visiting team made sixteen consecutive bulls eyes at 1000 yards in testing a new Sharps. He bought it on the spot. The New York Herald newspaper enjoyed writing this incident up, and as you might expect, the London Sporting Gazette in its Sept. 19th, 1877 edition was more or less was critical of the British firearms industry for being out done by the Americans.

Another thing I have always thought about is that while the Americans always won the Creedmoor matches, my personal opinion is that we didn't have our best marksmen shooting in the matches. The American team was always made up from the best shots from the New York rifle and Pistol club! Essentially a group of wealthy city slickers! Our best shots at long range were at work on the western praries killing buffalo, or bison, if you will. I will support this statement by offering the experience of one of our best eastern target marksmen, Milton W. Farrow, on his trip out of Glendive, Montana in 1880. Basically, he nearly got killed by a bison and was saved by his guide killing the animal. It is one thing to shoot targets at known, marked distances and quite another to shoot under pressure where the distances are not marked, as Mr. Farrow found out.

Elmer Keith wrote that he believed that as a class, the buffalo hunters of the old west were the best long range marksmen and killers of game that the world had ever seen, and that their like would never be seen again. For one thing, they had the OPPORTUNITY to shoot large numbers of animals at distance and to learn HOW to do it. There is a great deal of truth to this. So one reason for the great accuracy of the Sharps rifle is that we had men that KNEW HOW TO SHOOT THEM. It was their livelihood, and they were good at it.

Another reason for the accuracy of the Sharps rifle, is that the factory was very good at getting feedback from the hunters in the west, and the factory listened. What was needed was a rifle that was accurate at distance, and killed big animals at long range. Sharps developed rifles AND AMMUNITION to that end. The British, on the other hand, developed highly finished sporting rifles for stopping dangerous animals at close range. This means higher velocity large diameter bullets with the attendant barrel twists to stabilize the lighter bullets. This approach is not conducive to long range accuracy, as the short bullets give up sectional density and the attendant long range advantage of a high ballistic coefficient. Simply put, the Sharps was made to shoot accurately and kill at long range where the British rifles generally weren't.

Understand that these are just my opinions based on personal experience and observation.
 
Posts: 807 | Location: East Texas | Registered: 03 November 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
one of us
posted Hide Post
Nice shooting Sharpsguy. When I started the bpcr game I was amazed that we could shoot moa at longer range with iron sights and cast bullets. I shoot with some good shooters that shoot subsonic on all the rail animals. LB
 
Posts: 26 | Registered: 20 May 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:

I highly recommend the late Frank Sellers book for the history of the Sharps Rifle Company.


Got it. Great book. tu2
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
one of us
posted Hide Post
Sharpsguy, if you please,

What sights were you using for for your sub-0.25-MOA, 5-shot group at +400 yards?

Creedmore/Soule-type rear sight of what make?

Front sight used was what?
Surely not a long silver blade like what seems to be in picture above? holycow
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
one of us
posted Hide Post
RIP The rifle is a standard Shiloh Roughrider in 45-70 as it came from the factory. The rear tang sight is a Red River Mega Soule which I really like, as it has the Borchardt method of adjusting elevation which is very precise and repeatable and its own Hadley eyepiece. The front sight is an MVA 111 using the wide flat post insert. I don't really care for the MVA all that much, but it was what was handy when I was putting target sights on the rifle. I prefer a Lyman 17A, but didn't have one with the right dovetail size at the moment. The rifle usually wears a Lawerence low notch barrel sight and a blade front made from a copper penny rather than the Creedmoor style target sights.

What looks like a silver blade in the picture is glare from the light reflecting off the front sight.
 
Posts: 807 | Location: East Texas | Registered: 03 November 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2  
 


Copyright December 1997-2022 Accuratereloading.com


Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia