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BPCR Loading with Smokeless: NOT AS MUCH FUN AS SMOKING!
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Cal and 9.3,
I can see where loading BP in a double rifle might get frustrating. With a modern smokeless centerfire rifle and modern ammunition, most single-barrel rifles will shoot somewhere between 1 1/2 to 2 1/2" groups at 100 yards. Different factory ammunition or handloading may well improve that. Now that would be great accuracy for most double rifle applications, so you're left with finding a load where the 2 barrels shoot the same ammunition to the same point of aim.

With black powder, the variance in loads is much greater...a random bullet, powder, wad, primer combination might shoot 2" at 100 yards, but is may shoot 18" or even more if the rifle doesn't like the loading. So there's much more work and experimentation involved in getting one barrel to group well. When you add the element of a 2nd barrel needing to shoot as well, and to the same POI, as the first barrel, you may feel like you're in an anvil-juggling contest :-) If you add in the effects of powder fouling and leading after a few shots as well, it can be even more frustrating.

Fortunately, I don't think we demand the same level of accuracy with a DR as we do with a single barrel rifle, just because the ranges at which they're used are usually quite short. But I could see where developing a good regulation load with BP in a double rifle might be a PITA.
 
Posts: 19066 | Location: Very NW NJ up in the Mountains | Registered: 14 June 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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9.3--The tool I use to cut the hollow bases is a Forstner wood bit chucked up in the tail stock of my lathe. A 3/8 bit is perfect for the 45 caliber bases, and a 7/16 is used on the 50 caliber. Hope this helps.
 
Posts: 807 | Location: East Texas | Registered: 03 November 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Biebs:
Cal and 9.3,
I can see where loading BP in a double rifle might get frustrating. With a modern smokeless centerfire rifle and modern ammunition, most single-barrel rifles will shoot somewhere between 1 1/2 to 2 1/2" groups at 100 yards. Different factory ammunition or handloading may well improve that. Now that would be great accuracy for most double rifle applications, so you're left with finding a load where the 2 barrels shoot the same ammunition to the same point of aim.

With black powder, the variance in loads is much greater...a random bullet, powder, wad, primer combination might shoot 2" at 100 yards, but is may shoot 18" or even more if the rifle doesn't like the loading. So there's much more work and experimentation involved in getting one barrel to group well. When you add the element of a 2nd barrel needing to shoot as well, and to the same POI, as the first barrel, you may feel like you're in an anvil-juggling contest :-) If you add in the effects of powder fouling and leading after a few shots as well, it can be even more frustrating.

Fortunately, I don't think we demand the same level of accuracy with a DR as we do with a single barrel rifle, just because the ranges at which they're used are usually quite short. But I could see where developing a good regulation load with BP in a double rifle might be a PITA.


It is, and that is the reason why I strive for equal velocity when working up a load in a double--smokeless or black. It is hard getting the velocity with today's black to meed the published ballistics of the old C&H no6. If the velocity can be achieved, and the bullet weight the same, a good target can't be far away.

It may be interesting to start another thread on new vs. old black powder and velocity.
Cal


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Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
www.CalPappas.com
www.CalPappas.blogspot.com
1994 Zimbabwe
1997 Zimbabwe
1998 Zimbabwe
1999 Zimbabwe
1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation
2000 Australia
2002 South Africa
2003 South Africa
2003 Zimbabwe
2005 South Africa
2005 Zimbabwe
2006 Tanzania
2006 Zimbabwe--vacation
2007 Zimbabwe--vacation
2008 Zimbabwe
2012 Australia
2013 South Africa
2013 Zimbabwe
2013 Australia
2016 Zimbabwe
2017 Zimbabwe
2018 South Africa
2018 Zimbabwe--vacation
2019 South Africa
2019 Botswana
2019 Zimbabwe vacation
2021 South Africa
2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later)
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Posts: 7126 | Location: Willow, Alaska | Registered: 29 June 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Cal-- This is going to be a bit long, so please bear with me.

You will have to change your loading protocol from top to bottom. Starting with the bullet or ball, the straight wheel weights contain antimony, which, while it imparts hardness, compromises the shear strength of the projectile. A bullet that is more ductile won't lead as easily. You need to change your alloy to 25-1 or 30-1. An easy alternative is to mix your wheel weights 50/50 with lead. I shoot a lot of 50/50 lead-wheel weight bullets myself, and that is the alloy I use in Africa.

You will have to use a suitable lube on the bullets and in the cartridge itself. Bore Butter is woefully inadequate for this. The original cartridges were loaded with cannelured or grooved bullets that were lubed with a mixture of beeswax and tallow. The mixture was seasonally adjusted with a harder lube being used in the summer and a softer lube being used in cold weather. Summer lube for the 8 bore might be as hard as 5 parts of beeswax to one part of tallow while in the summer you might have 3 tallow to one beeswax. The bullets were lubed by dipping them into melted tallow until the lube grooves were filled.

You will also have to use a series of wads, starting with two wads cut from hard felt about.090 thick. These felt wads are .025 to .035 LARGER than bore diameter, and saturated with melted lube. Being cut oversize insures that they scrub the bore as well as carry a supply of lube that softens fouling. After the felt wads are put in the case, a bore diameter card wad is placed on the felt wads between them and the bullet. This insures that the felt wads separate fro me base of the bullet when it exits the bore. This card wad is cut from milk cartons, pizza boxes, or playing cards, as all of these materials are impervious to grease.

This should stop the leading. However, if it doesn't, the next step is to put a 7/16 inch thick grease cookie on top of the felt wads and under the card wad. This will absolutely seal the bore against gas cutting and provide additional lube to keep the fouling soft.

You should be good to go with the greased bullets.
 
Posts: 807 | Location: East Texas | Registered: 03 November 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Cal--A switch from the Goex powder to KIK 2f will give you a close approximation of the old C&H No. 6.

With the round ball, you simply load it with a greased felt wad over the powder and a greased patch on the round ball and put it in the case. The originals were loaded with a linen patch lubed with straight tallow. I spoke to Gunner500 who runs an 8 bore muzzleloader, and he advised that he uses a patch cut from pillow ticking instead of the linen. He also advises that you will likely need a hefty grease cookie on top of the wad and under the patched ball, as 400 grains of Goex 2f dumps a lot of fouling in the bore. If you can get some KIK 2f up there, you will find the fouling will be lighter and softer than what you are dealing with at present.

After you get the patched ball in the case, a light crimp can be employed.
 
Posts: 807 | Location: East Texas | Registered: 03 November 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This is a great example of AR gents with vast knowledge. I appreciate your info and your PM, Sharpsguy. I will be playing with the 8 and 4 this summer with your recommendations.
Cal


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Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
www.CalPappas.com
www.CalPappas.blogspot.com
1994 Zimbabwe
1997 Zimbabwe
1998 Zimbabwe
1999 Zimbabwe
1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation
2000 Australia
2002 South Africa
2003 South Africa
2003 Zimbabwe
2005 South Africa
2005 Zimbabwe
2006 Tanzania
2006 Zimbabwe--vacation
2007 Zimbabwe--vacation
2008 Zimbabwe
2012 Australia
2013 South Africa
2013 Zimbabwe
2013 Australia
2016 Zimbabwe
2017 Zimbabwe
2018 South Africa
2018 Zimbabwe--vacation
2019 South Africa
2019 Botswana
2019 Zimbabwe vacation
2021 South Africa
2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later)
______________________________
 
Posts: 7126 | Location: Willow, Alaska | Registered: 29 June 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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cal, with my 43 Mauser double I ran into precisely the situation you allude to. Not enough velocity. Both barrels grouped quite well for a rifle of its age and less than perfect bore. However, I could not get them to come together. I ended up with a charge of 5 grs. of SR-4759 beneath 63 grains of Ffg Scheutzen and the load came right together. 2-3 inches at 50 yards. I figured that was as good as I was likely to get...to say nothing of not being able to see any better than that. We all know breech loaders shooting black powder clean up easier than everything else but a side effect of the lightly duplexed load is that it cleans even easier, if that's possible, and what fouling there is is light.

That was 20 years ago. IF I can find some KIK without buying a case, as sharpsguy keeps bringing it up, I'll have to try it straight up.

sharpsguy's method sounds good. Should turn out good loads.


DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE
E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R

Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it
 
Posts: 502 | Location: In The Sticks, Missouri  | Registered: 02 February 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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>>>Both smokeless and black cause bullet upset, but the upset with black is more pronounced and sudden due to its burn rate.<<<

BPCR shooters that advocate "BP only" often talk in circles about black powder upsetting the bullets.

1. They have not looked at the photos of the burning dirt clods forcing the bullet of out of the muzzle of their rifles. This clump of powder, that is not completely burned, is rammed into the base of the bullets causing them to upset. The compressed powder is forced into to every crevice pushing the bullet out of the barrel. Then the unburned clump of powder partially burns when it exits the muzzle and the rest is blown into the winds.

2. Then the black powder shooter talks about how the bullets don't work because they are too hard even though they just talked about how well black powder obturates a bullet.
So now after advocating softer bullets, they can get black powder to obturate and then they say "See I told you so, black powder obturates better when all they did was to use a softer bullet"

They have all the circular arguments when many times all they know is black powder. They may know little or nothing about shooting smokeless except at jacketed bullet velocities using common loading manual data.

Smokeless powder can develop all the pressure that black powder can. Smokeless powder can develop that pressure just as fast and even faster. The problem is black powder shooters are use to a case with a huge powder volume. Smokeless does not need even half the volume.

Shooting 3031 to duplicate black powder will surely not give you comparable results.

However a faster burning powder will. But now the BP shooter that is adamant about a case full of powder is out of his element. BP shooters are used to using long drop tubes to over fill a case, settling the powder, compressing the powder, adding fiber wads, grease wads, poly wads and finally a bullet.
For a BP shooter simply pouring a case half full of powder is not enough. They say you are going to blow up your rifle if you don't use BP.

The truth is anyone can use smokeless with a softer bullet successfully. All of us have done it. Millions of us have fired billions of rounds just like that. We might, in total, have fired trillions of rounds, more rounds that have been fired in all wars totaled. That smokeless and soft lead bullets work and work well has been proven in venues of competition across the country and around the globe. The average rifle shooting these loads is more accurate, over the short distances the low velocities allow, than the average high velocity rifle. The first universally successful cartridge, a BPCR no less, now shooting smokeless powder exclusively and uses only lead bullets that always upset. It almost never leads and produces spectacular accuracy.
That round is the .22 rimfire.
 
Posts: 13978 | Location: http://www.tarawaontheweb.org/tarawa2.jpg | Registered: 03 December 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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That's an indictment of "they" painted with a pretty broad brush. Especially to one who has loaded black in cartridges for 30 years and smokeless for jacketed and cast for close to 50 years.


DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE
E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R

Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it
 
Posts: 502 | Location: In The Sticks, Missouri  | Registered: 02 February 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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