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| One of Us |
I have an opinion on an aspect of shotguns. It deals with rifled barrels. For some reason it seems to me that grouping a shotgun platform that consists of a rifled barrel, at the time the rifled barrel is installed for use, that the firearm is no longer a shotgun but a "rifle". Is not the reason a "rifle" termed a rifle because the barrel has rifling as opposed to a smoothbore? Is this not the reason that there is a separation between "rifles" and "shotguns"? I know this may seem a little excessive as far as terminology but, in reality the ammunition being used in a "rifled only barrel" is now rifle ammunition and not shotgun ammunition. This would place the firearm not in the shotgun category but in the rifle category. If you have a firearm platform that is dedicated to a rifled barrel, shooting a round that is rifled barrel only, you are shooting a "Rifle". For instance, You are shooting a Typical shotgun such as a Remington 870 firing Brenneke slugs, designed for smoothbores. You are shooting a "shotgun" If you are shooting a Remington 870 with a dedicated rifled barrel shooting a Remington rifle only sabot slug, you are shooting a "Rifle". I think this distinction should be made and that dedicated "rifled" barrel platforms should not be grouped with shotguns because they are "not" shotguns, but rifles. | ||
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You have made a very good point....however the opinion that reigns will be that of the Federal firearms people. I surely wouldn't make that call nor would I cut my rifled shotgun barrel to 16 1/4" bcause it's now a rifle! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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You may be onto something. Around here we call them "slug guns". | |||
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I look at it this way, if the chambering printed on the barrel say 12 GA. its a shotgun, if it say 30-06 its a rifle. Macs B U.S. Army Retired Alles gut! | |||
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To most including myself, when seeing the imprint "12 GA" I would normally assume shotgun. But, In reality the term is just designating the bore diameter. Not in inches but, in lead balls per pound. I submit, a firearm with a rifled barrel, regardless of the action type, firing ammunition that is specifically designed for use in a rifled barrel is in fact a "Rifle" and not a shotgun. | |||
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| one of us |
if we had reasonable and sensible gun laws it would be a rifle or a shotgun depending what barrel it had on at the time you looked at it. | |||
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So, it's a rifle. And your point is..... xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Call it whatever you like. Confusion on such things probably began a century and a half ago with the invention of the "rifled musket". But it doesn't really matter what you call it. If you rifle a shotgun is it then a rifle? If you work the rifling out of a rifle until it has a smooth bore is it then a shotgun? If you shoot a deer in a shotgun only area using a .33" 000 buck pellet out of your smooth bore .30-06 do you think the game warden will agree it was a taken with a shotgun? I prefer the terms rifle and gun anyway. A gun requires the use of a soft wad to prevent gasses from leaking past the load. That is true for any sort of shotshell, slug cartridge, or shotgun sabot round regardless of whether the bore is smooth or rifled and whether the case is metallic or non-metallic. Rifes do not require soft wads for a gas seal. . | |||
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Tomato/Tomato.... Doug Wilhelmi NRA Life Member | |||
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Welllll.....not really....the laws are different at least regarding barrel length! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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| one of us |
As mentioned above, I'd get a ruling from the ATF before I whacked a rifled shotgun barrel off to 16 1/2 inches. I sure as hell don't want to be arguing this case in front of a Federal judge over an inch and a half of barrel length. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Good point. Food for thought. Dave In 100 years who of us will care? An armed society is a polite society! Just because they say you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you. | |||
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A bore rifle as the British called them, has the projectile sealing the bore when it engages the rifling. Any projectile fired in a rifled barrel uses the projectile to seal its bore regardless of spacers used for any reason such as taking up additional space within an overly large case. A bullet, slug, sabot when fired in a rifled bore seals the bore to engage the rifling. They are now not shotguns. They are rifles. This is an opinion. It was not brought forth to discuss barrel lengths. That was not my intention. | |||
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The projectiles of any type regardless require a total seal to engage the rifling. Any deviation or lack of seal would defeat the projectiles purpose of totaliy engaging the rifling, stabilizing its proper rotation and accurately hitting its target. Not to have a proper seal and engagement of rifling would defeat it's purpose. A soft wad is not needed to seal a projectile that is properly fitted to a bore. In so much as any normal modern rifle round has no need to have a soft wad. A 12 bore projectile firing it's normally 750 grain bullet has no need for a soft wad. It was fit in diameter to the bore to engage the rifling. Whether it was fired in a normal fully rifled barrel or a abbreviated rifling, last few inches, the bullet itself sealed the bore. Yes, a bullet, slug, sabot does seal the bore when engaging the rifling, if the projectile and barrel are properly made. There is absoloutly no need for a wad. It is now a rifle. | |||
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With all due respect, you are mistaken. I will use the Paradox as an example. It fires a projectile approximately .002"-.003" smaller in diameter than the bore. It does not engage the rifled choke until it has gone down all but the last 2.5" of the barrel. If the cartridge did not use a soft wad to seal off gases then gas would be blowing past the projectile and velocity would be considerably lower. Moreover, without building up proper pressure there is a good chance that the powder would burn inefficiently, perhaps some would not burn at all. By the time the projectile engages the rifling at the muzzle it has already achieved velocity and a gas seal at that point is inconsequential. Also consider that Foster slugs themselves do not adequately seal the barrel. If they fit tight enough to do that pressures would exceed the design limits of the shotgun. Instead, a soft wad (plastic or fiber) is used for the seal. The wad gets compressed and expands against the bore. The wad offers little friction on the walls of the bore compared to what lead would cause. There have been attempts to use plastic balls in the base of the Foster slug to force the skirt out, expanding diameter at that point as the pressure rises. Federal's Truball slug is the latest attempt at this. Here is what they have to say: You will note that the problem they strive to solve is uneven distortion of the skirt and resultant poor accuracy of the slug. The purpose of the ball is to create uniform skirt distortion and improve alignment of the slug in the bore to enhance accuracy. They still use a soft plastic wad, the primary purpose of which is to create a gas seal. The same is true for "pumpkin ball" loads and sabot shotgun slugs, even when fired through rifled shotgun barrels. In a true bore rifle the bullet is deformed and engraved with the rifling just as in any other rifle. It doesn't matter whether or not the bore diameter is measured in calibers, millimeters, or gauge. A .410 shotgun is still a shotgun even though we don't measure the bore diameter by gauge. A bore rifle is a rifle and a bore gun is a gun. . | |||
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Sir, The discussion is for fully rifled barrels. A fully rifled barrel absoloutly needs a projectile to fully engage the rifling properly. There is no question about this. To not do so would defeat it's purpose. A fully rifled barrel must use a projectile fitted to its bore to operate properly. Although you and I both mentioned parodox guns, this topic is about fully rifled barrels. It is well known and widely practiced that a projectile to operate properly in a rifled barrel whether jacketed (bore diameter) or cast (slightly over bore diameter) is needed for proper operation and accuracy. It is now a rifle. | |||
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Even with shotgun sabot rounds fired from fully rifled barrels it is the soft wad behind the projectile that forms the gas seal. In a shotgun, the sabot, or petals of the wad that is serving as the sabot, engage the rifling. But the purpose of engaging the rifling is to center the round and impart twist. The gases, even in those rounds, are primarily sealed by the expansion of the soft wad material between the projectile and the powder.  The sabot of a rifle cartridge is different. It is very hard, not soft, and functions as a gas seal the same way a standard rifle bullet would function as a gas seal. A rifle sabot is not designed to seal gases by expanding. It is designed to seal by getting pressed into the bore as it has the rifling engraved on it.  Even the expansion of a soft lead bullet is not sufficient to seal off gases adequately in a rifle. That is why we load them with gas checks behind them. The gas check is hard. . | |||
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You are speaking only of a sabot. The plastic casing is acting as no more than a substitute jacket. Such as the old sub caliber sabot loads in the 30-06 used some time ago. A rifled barrel uses a bullet. Singling out sabot only loads still does not remove the fact that a rifled barrel takes a full diameter bullet fitted to its bore to operate properly. The intention of a rifled barrel is to fire a projectile of proper bore diameter. I can fire sabot rounds in a revolver. I can fire shot rounds in a revolver. It does not make it a shotgun. A fully rifled barrel, although it can fire a multitude of varying loads, is still a rifle. As an example, the Brenneke black magic slug is used for both rifled and smoothbores barrels. In a smoothbores the (tail) is used as a shuttle cock to maintain stability in flight. In a rifled barrel the coating (heavy epoxy? Paint) is used as a seal to block gases and engage the rifling. At this point the (tail) serves no useful purpose due to the fact that the projectiles coating has engaged the rifling, inparted spin and stability to the projectile as would be for any standard bullet. No longer a shotgun. | |||
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ALL Brenneke slugs, including the Black Magic, have a soft plastic wad between the projectile and the powder to provide the gas seal. 
It doesn't matter at all that the wad continues downrange with the slug for stability. The slug is ribbed and any notion that the ribbed lead slug will form a gas seal in a rifled barrel is silly. Again, by my definition: A gun requires the use of a soft wad to prevent gasses from leaking past the load. That is true for any sort of shotshell, slug cartridge, or shotgun sabot round regardless of whether the bore is smooth or rifled and whether the case is metallic or non-metallic. Rifes do not require soft wads for a gas seal. Brenneke slugs are no exception. They are made for shooting out of guns (rifled or not) and not for shooting out of rifles. If you don't believe me take a Brenneke cartridge, open it up, remove the wad, replace the slug, and fire it out of a fully rifled slug gun. Then compare velocity, blast, and soot level in the bore compared to firing one with the wad in place. Hopefully, the experiment won't get a slug stuck in your bore but don't be surprised if that happens. . | |||
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Truly, Are you telling me that a slug designed to shoot in a rifled bore such as the black magic does not have the slug engage the rifling and seal the bore? Are you serious? I should have never brought up this discussion. Think what you will. | |||
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You are half right. A slug engages the rifling and just by its being there it restricts gas flow around it. But the slug does not seal the gasses behind it. It is the wad that does that. Heck, a slug going down a smooth bore even restricts some gases from flowing around it just by being there. . | |||
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Tell me about Brenneke slugs and how they work.  | |||
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I've already done that. I have many hundreds of cases of shotgun shells. But, unfortunately, I only have a small quantity of Brenneke slugs. Nevertheless, I cut one open and took the slug and [soft plastic] wad out. They are stuck together. Let's see what we find, shall we? Diameter at the "skirt" of the plastic wad = 0.7430" Diameter of wad where it butts against the slug = 0.7225" Diameter of the slug across the groves = 0.6295" Max diameter of the slug across the ridges = 0.7265" Diameter of slug at base, maximum diameter = 0.7240" The standard 12ga shotgun bore is 0.725"+.020" (SAAMI) Remington rifled barrel (typical): Groove diameter = 0.731" Bore diameter = 0.7205" - 0.7210" Hastings rifled Barrels (according to Buffalo Bore): Groove diameter = 0.727" Bore diameter = 0.716" It is easy to see: There is nearly 1/10" of a gap between the barrel grooves and the slug at the grooves. Because the grooves on the slug are neither circumferential nor concentric there remain considerable gaps around the slug for gases to pass freely, and they would if they were not blocked by the soft plastic wad. The base of the slug is large enough to block most of that off but still doesn't fit close enough to provide a good gas seal. With the Remington slug barrel, and probably many other barrels, the barrel groves are deep enough to produce an even bigger gap. Remember, we're talking about as much as 12,000+ psi. pressure. . | |||
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| one of us |
A friend of mine bought one of Galazan's 20ga SxS shotgun with rifled barrels and he really likes it and it is very accurate. I almost bought one from them at the Las Vegas Gun Show a couple years ago but just few minutes talking to the owner put me off enough to just walk away. DB Bill aka Bill George | |||
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Food for thought. The Taurus Judge fires .410 shot shells, yet the ATF does not consider it a short barreled shotgun only because the barrel is rifled. | |||
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The Foster type slug doesn't rely on a soft wad or sabot to seal. The shape of the projectile and soft lead allow the projectile itself to seal in the bore. | |||
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| one of us |
If a dog has four legs and a tail and you call the tail a leg. How many legs does a dog have? Four, calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. Abraham Lincoln | |||
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Assuming Browning still offers them, the bolt gun chambered in 12 gauge is a rifled barrel meant for slugs of some nature. Some claim they are quite accurate it is basically a modified Browning A Bolt w/ detachable magazine. Certainly more gun than needed for whitetails but not sure just what you would use it for unless game laws prevent a conventional rifle being used. Ohio may still enforce that law??? | |||
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In his book Greener states that a smooth bore is as accurate to 60 yards as a rifled bore. And, since there is no rifling to cut into the projectile, velocity will be greater, recoil less, and much easier to clean. In the vintage rifles I shoot rifled 12, 10, 8, and 4-bores and have shot or owned smooth bore for ball in 12, 10, and 8-bore. All are fun to shoot with Blue Dot or GOEX black powder. There term "elephant gun" was just that--a big bore firearm with no rifling but with sights for shooting a spherical ball--an 8 or 4 bore. Oval bores (no rifling but a twist to the oval), invisible rifling (spiral twists that are so shallow it is hard to see them), and muzzle rifling (Paradox and other brand-pecific names) were attempts to shoot a ball or conical projectile with acceptable accuracy and pattern shot also to an acceptable standard. I currently have a 10-bore ball and shot gun which I hope to shoot for the first time this week. Smooth bore, sight leaves at 50-100-150 yards with all folding so the front bead can be used for shotgun shooting, 2 7/8" chamber, 10-bore proofs, 28" barrels. The past owner shot 2-3" groups with a ball at 50 yards. A friend bought my Jeffery 8 with invisible rifling and it shoots a ball or conical accurately and patterns shot very well, also. If I was on the east coast I would attempt to hunt white tail with my smooth 10 in states that require a smooth bore shotgun and one of my rifled 12s in states that allow rifled shotgun barrels. Cheers, gents. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Cal, not everything Greener said rings true. If a smooth bore were as accurate to 60 yards then the rifled musket would have been a waste of time and money to develop and manufacture. A rifled bore is nearly always more accurate than a smooth bore, even at less than 60 yards. Velocity and accuracy differences between smooth and rifled bores are less apparent in muzzleloaders. That is because the bullets have to be pushed the entire length of the barrel before firing. Velocity and accuracy differences between smooth bore and rifled bore firearms firing metallic cartridge are significant. That said, some smooth bore guns demonstrate very good accuracy at 60 yards and beyond. And big bullets don't need as much velocity as small bullets so smooth bore guns and rifles firing a single projectile at velocities not far from the speed of sound have ample inertia to get the job done. A 10 bore bullet has long been considered adequate for everything up to and including elephant. But even 125 years ago, a 10 bore rifle was recognized as more accurate, and a better choice for big game, than a smooth barreled 10 bore gun. . | |||
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Even Foster type slugs have wads behind them for a gas seal. They don't expand fully, evenly, or fit as tight at the skirt as a .58 caliber Minnie ball would. They are hollow in the base to make them fly true without spinning. They use the same principle as a shuttle cock uses in badminton.     The exception is slugs loaded like Federal's Tru-Ball. They use a plastic ball in the base of the slug. "TruBall's secret is a hard plastic ball fitted into its hollow base. This helps achieve "concentric obturation" of the slug" But even with those the primary gas seal is the wad.  . | |||
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The categories being discussed do have some sort of "pure definition" however, the enforcement of these categories comes to us by way of the BATF or whatever they choose to call themselves today. As such, the rifle or shotgun classification is not determined by the barrel, tough it probably does have relevance, but rather by what the manufacturer first chooses to categorize it. We see this in such examples as the Thompson Center Contender. Purchased as a pistol, any barrel and stock can be added to configure it like a shotgun or a rifle. Once configured however, for the legal purposes of the BATF definitions, it remains a pistol.  Dave In 100 years who of us will care? An armed society is a polite society! Just because they say you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you. | |||
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Here in UK it is simple. Is the barrel smoothbored or does it have rifling grooves OF ANY FORM in it. If the first it is a "shot gun" or "smoothbore gun". If the latter it is not. Thus a Holland's Paradox is NOT a "shot gun" here in UK nor is anything using Lancaster's oval bore. Yet...here's the odd thing...a screw in choke makes no difference whether smoothbore as normal or if rifled. So the French woodcock shooting shot guns that have a rifled barrel not to spin a projectile but to give a wide open pattern at close ramge are here, in UK, not classed as a "shot gun" or "smoothbore gun". | |||
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A license for a rifle would be used on a Paradox gun and you would need to supply a reason and apply for a second rifle license, correct? Is that part of why Paradox guns are not as popular in UK as they once were? . | |||
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Yes, GR, in detail that's correct. Under UK law there are ONLY three classes of weapon. Defined by a 'section' in our Fireams Act. Section 1, section 2, section 5. I'll simplify but the overall picture is accurate. At first when registration and licensing came into force, in 1920, only guns, pistol, rvolver, rifle, with a RIFLED barrel had to be registered and required a licence. So as the first 'section' was the part that put this down in law they became, over time, known as 'section 1'...written for short as 's1'. Requiring a FIREARM CERTIFICATE. Shortly after machin guns became subject to not a local police licence but a national Government issued authority to possess. As 'sction 5' was the part of the Firearms Act that defined what a machine gun was they became known as 'section 5' weapons, or (as they were prohibited except with a Government authority) 'prohibited weapons', or 's5'. Requiring AUTHORITY UNDER s5 OF THE FIREARMS ACT to possess. So they were not actually totally banned at all...just prohibited from general ownership unless you had Government authority under 's5'. So what was left were smooth bore guns...and air guns under 12 ft/lbs muzzle energy. These both types of weapon requird no licence. Smoothbore guns only being licensed after 1967 requiring a SHOT GUN CERTIFICATE. And as 'section 2' defined a smoothbore gun they became known as 's2' weapons. Except it was just easier to call them shot guns. So, yes, as you tightly say folk might, if they had ONLY a paradox gun (and no other rifled arm) decide that the extra administrative burden wasn't worth it for the little use when in Britain that a paradox would get seeing as it was really meant as a role to be (either/or) a 12 bore rifle that could be used as a 12 bore shot gun if the need arose. But, of course, a true smoothbore 12 bore makes a better performance (as a shot gun) on game that paradox makes (as a shot gun) on game when used with birdshot or buckshot. Why? Because you can't bore a paradox to give differing degrees of choke in each barrel as you can a true smoothbore. And, like for like, it is heavier overall and muzzle heavy too. And perhaps, as a 12 rifle it wasn't, maybe, as accurate as a true 12 bore rifle that had a full length rifled barrel AND didn't balance as well. And used a modified shot gun cartridge firing a paradox slug unlike a true 12 bore rifle that fired a true brass cased rifle cartridge with a choice of after their 'invention' soft nose, hollow nose, or full jacket bullet instead of as originally in the day an all lead bullet or a lead bullet with a cast in iron front nose end. I've seen 12 bore rifle cartridges in all those bullet styles. But I've only ever seen paradox slugs in all lead. Never full jacket and never with, even, a cast in iron nose. Only 'solid' or 'hollow point'. So it's not something a paradox you'd even in India shoot an elephant with. Whereas with a 12 bore rifle you could with suitable cartridges. And, in its unique dual role use, the paradox was really only truly useful in India where you might go out after cloven footed soft non-dangerous game but with a good chance of winged game on the same foray. So just one gun to carry all day but usuable in either role. But nothing requiring a long shot as all was 'jungle' or as you'd know it in USA woodland shooting. Even in South Africa with more open terrain the paradox was less useful. Thus those 'odd' true shot gun barrel with true rifle barrel (in a rifle cartridge chambering) 'Cape' guns. Plus a paradox was expensive! More so, I'd guess, than a 'Cape' gun. So three things really saw the decline if the paradox: it had no real useful role outside India; it needed a license; it was too bloody expensive. Of those three the first and the last were the real fatal reasons. For instance I can't see any useful purpose it would have, or would have had, (except for the sheer pleasure of it) in Britain. Last in 1937 and again in 1988 (irrelevant to this paradox thread) some smoothbore guns have been reclassed as 's1' (1937 shot pistols like a Harrington and Richardson Handy Gun or Tuckaway brand side by side shot pistol, or any smoothbore gun with barrels under 24") or in 1988 multi-shot self loading or pump action guns with magazine capacity over two shouts or 's 5' in 1988 for ANY self loading or pump action shot gun with barrel under 24". So nowadays in UK a true shotgun, or smoothbore gun might be 's1', 's2' or even 's5' unlike in 1920 when, if it smoothbore it was just that irrespective of action, barrel length or magazine capacity and so didn't unlike the part rifled paradox require any licence or Firearm Certificate. | |||
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Grenadier--" A soft lead bullet is not sufficient to seal off is why gas checks are used" on cast bullets. A gas check can only be used on bullets from molds designed for a gas check. Many molds are plain base (gas check can't be used). These molds would be useless if it didn't seal off. I have shot many many rounds without a gas check of bullets that were from a gas check design mold. I have not noticed any loss of accuracy, velocity nor leading when doing that. Anymore I question the benefit of a gas check other than the sellers make money off them. | |||
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A gas check would be better named as a "bullet base protector" notwithstanding that it checks, or stops, the gas from melting the bullet base. As you say, CPTMAN, a plain base lead bullet in any breechloading rifle or revolver if properly cast or swaged will be either the barrel bore diameter or the barrel bore diameter plus .001". (OK I know there's the argument about sizing to cylinder mouth diameter or barrel forcing cone diameter but for simplicity I'll ignore those). So the gas check isn't to do with making sure the bullet expands...a lead bullet at modern pistol, revolver or rifle loading pressures will do that...it's to stop hot gases in Magnum loads melting the bullet base. I've never seen the phenomenon but I know that in "Sixguns" Elmer Keith writes of hot loads of 2400 powder melting the bullet base up to the first lubricant groove. I never noticed it! I've like CPTMAN have also fired cast gas check profile bullets with no gas check and report no performance loss. Why should it...it's no more in effect than a form of rebated boat-tail in profile. But in a Lyman type swager they are messy as the lube gets all over that rebate where the gas check should be. | |||
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Well you misquoted me and took it out of context. I said, "Even the expansion of a soft lead bullet is not sufficient to seal off gases adequately in a rifle. That is why we load them with gas checks behind them. The gas check is hard."-- This is a true statement. It was in reference to the discussion of bullet expansion or obturation as the method of providing a gas seal at the base of the bullet. Gas checks prevent "gas cutting". Here is what a gas check manufacturer has to say:
And there is this in this " Ideal / Lyman Mold Reference " and points out the need for gas checks on soft bullets to stop gas cutting:
And finally, I will quote from the "Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook", 4th Edition:
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Well yes gas check manufacturers are going to advocate their use. Priced em lately? Melting the base up to first lube groove? Hold a bullet with a pair of pliers and quickly pass it through a cutting torch flame---NO melting and the exposure time was much longer than it's exposed in a gun barrel. If it got hot enough to melt the base, it would be hot enough to turn the lube into a liquid that would be spun off. Recover a cast bullet and the lube is still intact. Recover it immediately and the lube is not melted. I have shot cast bullets in the 2400-2900 fps range without gas check from a gas check designed mold (RCBS) and got no leading. I think the Lyman Manual is pretty good for the most part. But their Lyman #2 alloy formula leaves a big question in my mind. How do you take an unknown (wheelweight) for 95% and add an exact for the remainder and come up with an exact? | |||
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