THE ACCURATERELOADING.COM CARTRIDGE COLLECTING FORUM

Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Cartridge making in 1852 William Needham Whiteley
 Login/Join
 
one of us
Picture of LesBrooks
posted
I have been reading my family history and in a book published in 1907 with a mention of a 4th cousin of mine making the first breech loading cartridge in 1852. I have look everywhere trying to find this cartridge. It is said in the writing that it is a steel case loaded with powder and a ball with a percussion cap to fire the cartridge. William Needham Whiteley was only about 20 yrs old. His brother gives this information in his book "Whiteleys in America, 1907.
Does anyone have any knowledge of this cartridge? William N Whiteley went into making farm equipment in Springfield , Ohio. He had 42 patents and the Champion Machine Works had some 4000 people employed in about 1885. Our family didn't tell any of this so I found our history about 5 yrs ago on the internet. Les Brooks, retired gunsmith

From Whiteleys in American
If I remember correctly, his first very important invention was a Breech Loading Gun, which covered the ground floor principle of "Breech Loading,"
which was later adopted by "Colt," and is now used
in the manufacture of every style of Breech Loading Guns, embracing Revolvers, Rifles, and Shot Guns, now in use. Substantially the only difference being', that William N. used a Steel Cartridge, which was loaded with powder and ball, and when placed in position, it was Fired from a percussion cap, instead of the ordinary cartridge now in use.
I am remembering how enthusiastically Our Father, urged William N to secure a Patent cover- ing the Ground Floor Principle of Breech Loading, which could have been secured by him, thus making all subsequent devices, or principles, of Breech Load- ing Guns, subject to William N.'s Patent Of The Principle, during the life of his Patent, which could have been made to yield him Great Wealth; but William N. did not seem to have inherited the financial and business Instincts of Our Father.
 
Posts: 860 | Location: Texas | Registered: 19 May 2004Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of NormanConquest
posted Hide Post
Please report your findings.I for one find this very interesting.


Never mistake motion for action.
 
Posts: 12867 | Location: Austin, Texas | Registered: 11 March 2013Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
I believe the cartridge you are referring to is known as the .45 Neeham dust bin. They are available from time to time in the cartridge collecting circles. Unfortunately I do not have one that I could post pictures of.
Zac
 
Posts: 36 | Registered: 14 March 2013Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of LesBrooks
posted Hide Post
I don't believe that the 45 Neeham is the same.

I am trying to find the family link to the Needham group. William Needham Whiteley has a connection, but I can't find the info in the book. I will still be looking in the old Patents to find more info.
 
Posts: 860 | Location: Texas | Registered: 19 May 2004Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of LesBrooks
posted Hide Post
Wm. N. Whiteley started working at the machine shop that his father owned with a couple of other people. His rifle and cartridge was made around 1851-52. I don't believe that the 45 Needham rifle was patented until about 1862. Most of Wm. N. Whiteley models were lost in a fire at his sons business after he passed away in 1911. Somewhere someone may have a Model of his rifle. I understand that in Springfield, Ohio there is a museum with lots of info on things manufactured there. If someone lives in Springfield it could be an interesting projects to try and find any info about his rifle.
 
Posts: 860 | Location: Texas | Registered: 19 May 2004Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of NormanConquest
posted Hide Post
I have never been all that interested in cartridge collecting other than a passing interest but the history really intrigues me.This is an interesting forum to peruse for just that reason.I appreciate the knowledge gents.


Never mistake motion for action.
 
Posts: 12867 | Location: Austin, Texas | Registered: 11 March 2013Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of RIP
posted Hide Post
"I have been reading my family history and in a book published in 1907 with a mention of a 4th cousin of mine making the first breech loading cartridge in 1852 ..."

Interesting, another primitive percussion-cap-fired breechloader.
Not the first metallic cartridge breechloader though.
Jean Samuel Pauly got a French patent for a CENTERFIRE, self-contained/all-in-one, rimmed, brass cartridge fired from a break-action pistol, .666" ball diameter,
in 1812.

Dr. Edward Maynard had a ".46 Rimless," metallic cartridge, for his break-action,
fired by a percussion cap/tape through a central hole in the base of the cartridge.
George A. Hoyem says it originated in either 1846 (typo?) or 1856, but Maynard's US patent date on that is 1856, reproduced in Hoyem's book. Must be 1856.

Sylvester Roper got a US patent in 1866 for a belted steel cartridge case with a percussion nipple in the base, much like the Whitely version of 1852, except for the belt.
That was for the .41-caliber revolving rifle (4-shooter) ".40-Roper" with a belted case that was 2.42" long.
H&H was not first on the belted head cartridge.

I guess the Whitely cartridge of 1852 was rimmed? Rifle or handgun? Caliber?
Hoyem missed that one in his books, or I missed reading about it.
Mr. Whitely might have beat Maynard and Roper to the US patent office by 4 years or 14 years ...
 
Posts: 27525 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of muzza
posted Hide Post
Every family history has someone who made something first. Not wishing to denigrate your ancestors creative genius - you need to supply more specific information about exactly what was designed and build , and a date . Without that information , there is no way of researching the accuracy of the claim to fame .

Many , many people made self contained ammunition way back when , most didnt patent the idea so it never was documented. One thing in the ammunition world that is well documented is the history and development of the humble cartridge in its many variants.

The Needham cartridge mentioned above was an English invention , also well documented , although existing specimens are rare in collector circle. The dustbin also mentioned above was an Eley product , also English , which consisted of a pressed metal "hat" that sat on the end of a combustable cartridge to protect the paper and powder , and resemble the lid of a dust bin.


________________________

Old enough to know better
 
Posts: 4289 | Location: Eltham , New Zealand | Registered: 13 May 2002Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Les:

Contact: cooperjd, he works with
patents. Might dig something up
for you.

George


"Gun Control is NOT about Guns'
"It's about Control!!"
Join the NRA today!"

LM: NRA, DAV, RMEF

George L. Dwight
 
Posts: 4735 | Location: Pueblo, CO | Registered: 31 January 2006Reply With Quote
  Powered by Social Strata  
 


Copyright December 1997-2020 Accuratereloading.com


Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia