The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Other Topics Miscellaneous Topics A $23 Billion Punitive Judgement?!?!?!Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| One of Us |
With judgements like this it's little wonder why US business (including our healthcare system) is doomed to extinction. What ever happened to personal responsibility? 
___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | ||
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One of Us |
Total F$$King bullshit! Damn label has been on the side of the pack since the 60's. Doug Wilhelmi NRA Life Member | |||
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| One of Us |
Our country needs a comprehensive overhaul of our legal system followed by our medical system. Manufacturers and doctors alike build in future litigation expense into their pricing models and medical practice. As we have seen with GM, the notion that huge awards deters malfeasance is total bunk. All these awards do is jack up consumer prices for the rest of us. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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One of Us |
I already know this will gain me a lot of criticism, but at my age I no longer give a flying f... if it does. It is my opinion and I have the absolute right to hold it.... I still believe in the old judicial concept of "assumed risk"...I.E. that smokers, coffee drinkers, jay-walkers, druggies, sky-divers, scuba divers, et. al. have no excuse for not learning the risks of what they do BEFORE they do it. So if they get lung cancer, spill hot coffee in their laps, etc.., they have personally assumed the risks of that behavior. And anyone too stupid to care for themselves as well as they can probably should not be contributing to the gene pool anyway. (They may be a very nice person and I know stupidity is not always their fault...that doesn't change my view one iota.) Certainly we should not all pay if they get hurt by their own behavior. | |||
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One of Us |
If smoking causes cancer then why did my mother's friend of 70 some years die of it when she was never even exposed to cigarettes - living in a convent most of her life? My mother smoked for her whole life and died of old age - absolutely no effects from smoking at all - at age 87. If you are susceptible to cancer, it will get you, but if you are not it will never be a problem for you. Speer, Sierra, Lyman, Hornady, Hodgdon have reliable reloading data. You won't find it on so and so's web page. | |||
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| One of Us |
Come on Paul. You know the answers to your questions. Smoking is NOT the ONLY thing which causes lung cancers, but it definitely can and does do it. The statistics are too high to think otherwise. Likewise, not everyone who smokes gets lung cancer, just like not everyone who drinks alcohol suffer from liver failure, nor does everyone who drives drunk get in an auto accident which kills either them, others, or all three. But if they smoke, drink excessively enough times, or drive while impaired, they are assuming the risks of any of that happening. | |||
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One of Us |
True to a point Alberta. However, many of us smokers started when we were young teenagers. Can kids make informed decisions on their own? All my uncles and Dad smoked and never warned me. I think parents need to warn them of the dangers to smoking. On the other hand, many kids might just do the opposite of what we tell them. $23 BILLION seems excessive for sure. But how excessive was it? Are tobacco companies negligent? Hell yes! They weigh the legal fees to the profit and don't give a rats a$$ about anything else but the bottom line. They still won't divulge any of the additives in cigarettes under a shroud of 5th amendment of sorts. For me this begs the question.....what's the most damaging (?) the tobacco or the additives? We may never know because they aren't talking. Would this guy have died young from cancer anyway whether he smoked or not? I think the only we could answer that question with reasonable certainty is if he had an identical twin. Family history plays in here as well to a lesser extent. I don't know law enough to know if the burden of proof falls on the TC to prove they weren't liable. But, if so, these lawyers were probably druling on their shoes when approached by the family! But, 23 BILLION seems excessive if you only look at what the family lost both in income and pain and suffering. Why was the judgment so excessive? It was based on the net worth of the tobacco company. Had this suit been the same family vs a tiny company worth 500,000, I'm certain the judgement would have been far less with the otherwise exact same circumstances. Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
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| One of Us |
But any kid within the last 20 years who can read IS aware of the dangers...or should be. And if they want to confirm the degree of the danger, they now have the internet on their smart phone which will provide them with research, statistics, even gory pictures. I began smoking when I was 6 years old because the 7-year old kid across the Road liked to go to the general store a mile or so away and shoplift cigarettes, which he then shared with me. (He'd lift them by the CARTON!) I only smoked for a year or two until my dad caught me smoking while sitting on 6 tons of unbaled hay in our barn loft. He "whuupped" me so good I never touched tobacco again until I lied my way into the army when I had just turned 17. (BTW, he didn't use his belt on me because of the tobacco, but because he was angry that I risked burning myself, the hay, and the barn all to ashes.) He said the next time I didn't think through doing ANYTHING I should think back to that day and ask myself if the risk was worth the possible bad result. But, by the time I was a senior in high school the tobacco/cancer risk was well enough known that our high school took all of us on a mandatory visit to a hospital morgue where we could look at lungs taken from deceased smokers and preserved for study. So, when I went in the Army I still didn't smoke until we were put on board a troop ship to go to a combat area. Then smoking didn't seem even a slightly comparable risk, so I was willing to accept it. I eventually got up to 3 packs of butts and a cigar or two per day. Quit again cold turkey when the Dept. of the Navy refused to certify me for a high level civilian employee position because of my smoking. I really wanted that career "step" so I went outside the med exam building, sat down on the steps and smoked my remaining half pack of Pall Mall 100s, lighting each one off the butt of the one before, and then never used tobacco again in my whole life. Lucky for me, the Navy Dept. wouldn't allow me to continue assuming the risk of cancer. My father didn't quit in his life, and died of lung cancer. We both knew of the risks and assumed full responsibility for taking those risks. He paid with his life; I got lucky and was forced to get rid of that risk. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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by time the appeals process is finished, she'll be lucky to get more than a million. From this point in the trail, Judges, not juries will be deciding the number. | |||
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| One of Us |
My father died of lung cancer that was directly attributed to smoking. That being said, there is no way to hold anybody besides him responsible for his death. There are warnings about the dangers of smoking on every pack of cigarettes sold in this nation and have been for as long as I can remember. Anybody that says they don't know the dangers of smoking is either an idiot or a liar! If this guy died in 1996 as the article states then every pack of cigarettes he bought had a warning label attached to ti just like the ones attached to the cigarettes my father bought. | |||
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| One of Us |
What this legal judgment says to me is 1. "Victimology" is a virus rampant in America. No one is responsible for any of their own actions, they are all victims. Therefore someone else must be responsible. 2. Lawyers as a group are not as interested in justice, as in the money their efforts bring them...especially when their fee is based on a percentage of the size of the monetary sums awarded. 3. Basically, one of the principles of tort law and monetary awards was that no judgment would reward the injured with more than the value of their actual loss, based on costs of dealing with the affliction or whatever evolved over its whole term, lost earnings potential, etc.. Then punitive damages began to be awarded to "teach the perpetrator(s) a lesson". 4. Many ridiculously high punative awards are at least partly politically motivated. Politicians don't have the guts or the power in the real world to make things illegal which they don't like, so they encourage harassment of the people carrying on unfavored but completely legal businesses, until the business owners just give up and go away. So much for the myth of "let the marketplace decide". Hence the oft quoted "The law is an ass". | |||
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| One of Us |
Wise words as usual AC especially your lesson in your second last post by your father {(BTW, he didn't use his belt on me because of the tobacco, but because he was angry that I risked burning myself, the hay, and the barn all to ashes.) He said the next time I didn't think through doing ANYTHING I should think back to that day and ask myself if the risk was worth the possible bad result.}. I'll just add that smoking is not just habit-forming, it is an addiction. Bless all those who have become smoke free. I salute you and hope to be amongst you someday. A young kid was walking by my business a few days ago and asked me for a smoke. He couldn't have been older than 16. I told him, no way and that he should just give them up no matter what because it will mess you up. Best way to avoid addiction to tobacco is to never start. Labels on a package aren't enough. Advance warning by loved ones goes a long way. Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
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| One of Us |
Silly award. Doubt seriously if the trial court will even enter a judgment on that verdict, but if it does, it can't hold up on appeal under State Farm v. Campbell. AC -- for every one of those lawyers you complaint about, there's one like me that's on the other side. These verdicts make headlines, but they never get paid. | |||
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AC,I agree with you wholeheartedly on the victimization mindset that has become so prevalent in this country.No one ever put that butt in my mouth. That was personal choice.I smoked since I was 13,I'm 60 now + I quit 4 years ago,thats a lot of time smoking non filters.I had an operation 4 years ago for a detached retina (supposedly by the recoil of large calibres).While waiting for surgery,the guy in the next bed had tubes going out + coming in.That was my wakeup call.I did'nt want to be there for 2 hours,let alone the rest of my life. I will admit that reformed smokers usually are the most hypocritical;I have endeavored not to be so. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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| one of us |
I started smoking long before there were any warnings, I quit cigarettes(non filters) and went to cigars and was inhaling them just like the cigarettes,went from there to a pipe,didn't like that at all, wound up chewing tobacco and have lost most of my teeth as a result. My point is, once you get addicted it's TOUGH to give up. Stepchild NRA Life Member | |||
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| One of Us |
I suspect that is because those addicted in their hearts-of-hearts don't really WANT to quit. I used to smoke three packs of cigarettes a day, plus cigars...did so for at least 14 years. Doing that caused me several bouts of severe bronchitis, cost me one girl I absolutely adored, and a barrel of money, damaged clothes, etc.. I tried to stop at least 3 times, and once made it for almost a year with no weed. But I always started up again. Then I was put in a position where if I continued to smoke the U.S. Navy Department wouldn't give me a really great plum of a GS-15 job. All of a sudden I had an incentive to quit...a job & lifetime opportunity which really meant a great deal to me. So, I quit cold turkey and haven't smoked, chewed, or sniffed tobacco even once for almost 50 years now. The first week was a little tough, but after that it got easier, easier, and easier. After about three weeks you couldn't have paid me enough gold to start again. And you still couldn't today. In my case really WANTING to quit made all the difference in the world. Previously I thought (or knew) I should quit, but I just couldn't succeed because I didn't really, absolutely WANT to quit those previous times. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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| One of Us |
And then we have BP that have rightfully had the zza reamed given their negligence. | |||
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| One of Us |
Lloyd,you hit the nail on the head.Quitting smoking (read drinking,etc.) depends on the individual.For it to work,you have to do it for yourself,not for the family or any semblances thereove.When I quit 30+ years ago,whenever I rolled out a set of blueprints in the office shach the first thing that I did was hit my pocket for a smoke.Habit,but addictive as well.It is a mind set personal decision..Not even Chantix or anuthing will do it for you. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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| One of Us |
I doubt she ever collects a dime... Juries love doing this, it makes them feel important. Six months later, an appeals court overturns it. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Other Topics Miscellaneous Topics A $23 Billion Punitive Judgement?!?!?!
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