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9.3x72R Question
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I have a customer who has a drilling with the rifle barrel chambered in 9.3x72R. A factory cartridge will not go deep enough, into the chamber, to allow the action to close. He thinks a reamer should be run in to "open up" the chamber. Having not placed my hands on the firearm, I'm not so sure this us advisable. He found a rental reamer but the text of the webpage says, "9.3x72R Russian chamber". Anyone familiar with this variation?


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Posts: 1281 | Registered: 15 December 2008Reply With Quote
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DON'T!!!!! shame

Cast the chamber and determine what he has before doing anything.

How did he determine it is a 9,3X72R in the first place. Probably someone at a gun shop with just enough knowledge to get into trouble told him it was 9,3X72R.

There are so many variations of these older BP to Nitro rounds, that it could be any number of chamberings. It could be an entirely propitiatory round, like the Collaths and early Sauers. It is most likely the 9,3X65R.

Don't fool with it until he knows what he has, and the local Gunz'N Stuff shop won't have a clue. Send it to someone like Lee LeBas or Champlin look it over, before a perfectly good old drilling gets boogered up from ignorance.

In any case, re-chambering drillings runs into regulation issues. It might end up shooting so far off that every shot ends somewhere in the next county. hilbily
 
Posts: 1765 | Location: Northern Nevada | Registered: 27 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Thanks for the info. I guess I was remiss in my explanation of the situation. The firearm is marked "9.3x72R". The customer is a longtime collector of combination rifles and drillings. I'm sure he won't mung this thing up. Any idea about the "Russian" reference on the rental site?


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Posts: 1281 | Registered: 15 December 2008Reply With Quote
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Go to PTG for reamers; they will know what you need. Forget anyplace that calls a 9.3x72r a Russian anything.
 
Posts: 15215 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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what dpcd said.

I have a very nice O/U made by Gundermann of Dusseldorf. I think it was made prior to WWI.

16 gauge over 8x72R Sauer. Fully engraved including game animals. Love these combination firearms. Does he have 8mm ammunition or is he necking the 9,3x72R down like I will be doing.

Rich
 
Posts: 23062 | Location: SW Idaho | Registered: 19 December 2005Reply With Quote
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There is 4 different 9.3 X 72R's known....better make a chamber cast to see which one it is. I've not heard of a Russian 9.3 X 72R.


DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE
E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R

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Posts: 502 | Location: In The Sticks, Missouri  | Registered: 02 February 2014Reply With Quote
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Thanks for all the info. reamerrentals.com is where he saw the reference to 9.3x72R Russian


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Posts: 1281 | Registered: 15 December 2008Reply With Quote
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Well here's an update on the drilling in question. After making a chamber cast and determining that the entire chamber was about .003"(diameter wise) undersized, the reamer was obtained and used to open the chamber to accept a factory round. Test firing the rifle resulted in brass measuring .001" larger than unfired brass.
The fine folks at rentalreamers.com explained the term "Russian", that appears after the reamer photo on the web page, was a typo that has not been corrected.
Thanks for all the responses, real and otherwise, that came in from this inquiry.


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Posts: 1281 | Registered: 15 December 2008Reply With Quote
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Glad to hear it's working. While I subscribe fully the Ross Seyfried's mantra of "alter the ammunition, not the rifle" I don't see how .003 could hurt. Were it mine, for that small amount, I would have taken it off the case and it wouldn't have hurt a thing.....but you would end up with brass suitable only for that rifle and it wouldn't have went nearly so fast as just running a reamer in the chamber.


DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE
E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R

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Posts: 502 | Location: In The Sticks, Missouri  | Registered: 02 February 2014Reply With Quote
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Good that it worked out, but that is a typo I'd be fixing like yesterday.

Now you have me wondering about my 8mmx72R when the dies come next month.


Moshe-Moshe, as they say in Zim.

Rich
 
Posts: 23062 | Location: SW Idaho | Registered: 19 December 2005Reply With Quote
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Glad it was that easy, Doc. How does it regulate to the sights now?
 
Posts: 1765 | Location: Northern Nevada | Registered: 27 February 2004Reply With Quote
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I have no idea how it shoots. All I did was test fire 2x to address the brass issue. I'll let the owner tell me how it shoots. It is a beautiful old gun, made in Bucharest. Typical fine quality engraving as well as old world wood and metal work. When I get one of these in my hands I'm ashamed to call myself a gunsmith. The customer wheels and deals these guns regularly.


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Posts: 1281 | Registered: 15 December 2008Reply With Quote
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I've preached this for years, and so has Cal Pappas.

NEVER GUESS ON THESE OLD CHAMBERINGS. THE FIRST STEP IS ALWAYS TO HAVE A CHAMBER CAST MADE.

NEVER GUESS ON THESE OLD CHAMBERINGS. THE FIRST STEP IS ALWAYS TO HAVE A CHAMBER CAST MADE.

(REPEAT AGAIN AND AGAIN)


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Posts: 473 | Location: central Kansas | Registered: 26 December 2013Reply With Quote
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The owner, who I previously explained, is an avid collector and shooter of these fine old firearms, did indeed make a cerosafe chamber cast and that's how we were able to compare the measurements between the casting and the ammo. Feel free to keep on preaching though because that is sound advice.


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Posts: 1281 | Registered: 15 December 2008Reply With Quote
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on a related topic:

RCBS sent me an Email about an hour ago. My custom order 8xxX72R dies were shipped this morning. In a week I will be shooting my O/U rifle barrel. It is actually the small bullet, iirc 7.92mm or .316". My cast bullets mike .317" and should work fine for lower velocity loads.

I am a very happy camper, been waiting for these five months.

Rich
 
Posts: 23062 | Location: SW Idaho | Registered: 19 December 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
posted 11 August 2014 15:26
He found a rental reamer but the text of the webpage says, "9.3x72R Russian chamber". Anyone familiar with this variation?
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It's may be rare 9,3x72R Sauer - ballistic the same as usual 9.3x72R, geometry slightly another. I haven't seen it. Why does it named "Russian"? Firstly, Americans call so all strange, danderous and unpredictable, as Russian boer, and secondly - because before 1WW German gunsmithers divided European market, and Sauer operated in Eastern Europe (read - Russia), and another (Simson for example) - in Western. So specific Sauer rifles may be called "Russian".
Because the cartridge Sauer is approximately equal to normal 72R, I think it's safe to ream the camera under normal cartridge, in contrast to the situation with redesign for might 9.3x74R.
P.S. The situation is simple Smiler he means the specific accurate reamer: http://www.reamerrentals.com/P...roductCode=9.3x72R.f
 
Posts: 2356 | Location: Moscow | Registered: 07 December 2012Reply With Quote
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'R'= Russian

homer


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Posts: 3061 | Location: Southern US | Registered: 21 July 2002Reply With Quote
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I have an Inman meffert drilling marked 8,7 x72 r. From what I have seen R= rimmed.
 
Posts: 2 | Registered: 24 September 2013Reply With Quote
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Sorry my shiner bock caused that. R also equals belted.
 
Posts: 2 | Registered: 24 September 2013Reply With Quote
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I've never seen the "R" suffix on any cartridge denoted as Russian. But I don't know everything. Still curious as to how it shoots.

I've ran into this tight chamber thing before on German rifles. Most recently a J.P. Sauer & Sohn Mauser in 9 X 57. That was an....unusual....rifle to work with. Not only was the chamber tight but the considerably worn bore still came out to a .352 groove diameter. I had to take .002 off the head of 30-06 brass to get it to chamber after sizing and had to make a sizing die to swage down jacketed bullets and cast bullets. Cast wouldn't hold the rifling, it is so worn, at very much velocity and .358 bullets were too big in my opinion. Surprisingly it still shoots very good for as worn as the lands are. I've thought about having it relined, if there is enough barrel there, but it works adequately for my needs.

As your friend/customer has collected these things evidently for years he's no doubt aware of all the....strange, to us...cartridge configurations one can run into. Especially those manufactured before the 1912 Proof Law. Add those "other than standard" cartridges to a mix of war trophies that have been rechambered here in the US to only the gunsmith and original owner on these shores know what and the diversity of cartridge cases should come as no surprise. See my recent thread on this board about the drilling I just purchased. Most unusual combination of unknown events I've run into. I have it shooting and shooting quite well, if high, but it was not an easy thought process to get it there. The work was simple, the load development still in progress, but coming up with a donor case and and a starting load took some thought not only from me but from friends more well versed in those old firearms than I am.


DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE
E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R

Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it
 
Posts: 502 | Location: In The Sticks, Missouri  | Registered: 02 February 2014Reply With Quote
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My comment was a poor attempt at humor.

2020


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Posts: 3061 | Location: Southern US | Registered: 21 July 2002Reply With Quote
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I have seen two different length...this one is listed as 'normal'
 
Posts: 3284 | Location: Mountains of Northern California | Registered: 22 November 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Duckear:
My comment was a poor attempt at humor.

2020


I understood exactly what you meant. A lot of these youngsters buying Nagants in 7.62x54R think that the R means "Russian" and so it goes....if it's on the interweb, it HAS to be true Wink


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Posts: 296 | Location: NE Texas | Registered: 12 February 2012Reply With Quote
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333, I have what appears to be that same ring bullet in a 9.3 X 75R Nimrod case. Interesting concept, the ring bullet, and evidently it worked quite well.


DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE
E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R

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Posts: 502 | Location: In The Sticks, Missouri  | Registered: 02 February 2014Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 9.3 X 75R:
333, I have what appears to be that same ring bullet in a 9.3 X 75R Nimrod case. Interesting concept, the ring bullet, and evidently it worked quite well.


I got these at a pawn shop I went in with my ole Dad. There are four reloads and five of these. Reloads are DWM cases with very large primer diameters. One case missing. I hope he was successful with that shot.

And let me tell you I wish I had a single shot rifle in this caliber...like a longer slimmer sexier 38-55 or a beefed up 32-40. I have had both of those in Winchester 94s, but a tip barrel 9.3x72R(immed) would be awesome


...seriously people think the R in the 7.62x54R is 'Russian,' then how does it work for the Finn designation of 7.62x53R? Oh, Rimland!
 
Posts: 3284 | Location: Mountains of Northern California | Registered: 22 November 2005Reply With Quote
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The large primers are Berdan. As I understand they came in several sizes.

I don't have a 9.3 X 72R but have cartridges on either side of it. The 9.3 X 75R Nimrod and a 9.3 X 2 7/16, or 61-62 mm. The last cartridge is in a sweet little Jones underlever stalking rifle. It was advertised as a 9.3 X 72R and I thought "BINGO!!!" found one! Well...a chamber cast proved otherwise but the little rifle is such a delight I just had to keep it and work up a load. I'm glad I did. A kiplauf in 9.3 X 72R would be cherry!


DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE
E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R

Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it
 
Posts: 502 | Location: In The Sticks, Missouri  | Registered: 02 February 2014Reply With Quote
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My chamber cast at Colin's proved very enlightening as well.

Advertised as an 8mmx72R Sauer, there are five variations; it turned to be very different. They only part correct, after I spent about $200 and four months wait, was the 8mm. And, that only technically so. 7.7mm.

The cartridge is the 8x57R-360 from 1885-1890. The germans took the british 360 express 2.5" case, shortened it to 57mm (2.25"+/-) and bottle necked it to 8mm. Boxer primed, but with a small primer flash hole. It looks like a slightly different 32 Win Special. Bore slugs .317" as close as I can measure.

The good news, HDS has the brass, albeit $76 a box of 20 shipped Priority. Dave at CH4D has the die sets, for $82.

It is all here, and I just need to cast a few roundnose or spitzer bullets in the 190-200gr range to match the original 196gr loading.

It's going to be a fun year...

Rich
 
Posts: 23062 | Location: SW Idaho | Registered: 19 December 2005Reply With Quote
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Rich, I think that can be made from 30-40 Krag brass. My one drilling was marked for that cartridge but it had been rechambered and that's what I used. I'm certain the rim will work but without measuring I'm not certain about the head/base. Be worth a look.


DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE
E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R

Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it
 
Posts: 502 | Location: In The Sticks, Missouri  | Registered: 02 February 2014Reply With Quote
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thanks for the suggestion. I have plenty of Krag brass, so I can play a little.
 
Posts: 23062 | Location: SW Idaho | Registered: 19 December 2005Reply With Quote
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Unless my memory has failed me, something we KNOW it does, I believe it was you and one of your neighbors who sent me the Krag brass.


DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE
E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R

Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it
 
Posts: 502 | Location: In The Sticks, Missouri  | Registered: 02 February 2014Reply With Quote
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Yes, it was npd345 and I.
 
Posts: 23062 | Location: SW Idaho | Registered: 19 December 2005Reply With Quote
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did they work for what you wanted to make?
shane
 
Posts: 1464 | Location: Southwestern Idaho, USA!!!! | Registered: 29 March 2012Reply With Quote
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Oh absolutely npd!!!! That particular drilling turned into the most accurate of the 4 I own. It took a bit of experimentation to get it shooting. The preponderance of my BP cartridge shooting has always been with 40 cal. and above. This one at 9mm is a bit different in that the bullet was running out of lube and I didn't understand that until about 15 rounds had been fired in separate sessions of 5 rounds. While cleaning it after the last session I noticed the last 1/4-1/3 of the barrel, towards the muzzle had really hard fouling. I dropped the powder charge 3 grains, added a grease cookie and voila'!!!! It literally ate out the X ring at 50 yards, benched with open sights. That drilling isn't Nitro proofed.

Funny thing about the brass. If I remember correctly that was just before Christmas and I had casually mentioned to my oldest son about needing Krag brass and you guys sending me some. About a week after I'd received the brass from you two I got another package of 100 rounds of Krag brass in the mail.....and that was it. No note, a return address of somewhere in California I think from some place I'd never heard of. I had no idea where it came from and couldn't find out from whom. A few weeks later while talking to my son again he asked if I'd received my Christmas present....lol!! Now I have an abundance!!


DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE
E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R

Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it
 
Posts: 502 | Location: In The Sticks, Missouri  | Registered: 02 February 2014Reply With Quote
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I would keep that kid around!!
 
Posts: 1464 | Location: Southwestern Idaho, USA!!!! | Registered: 29 March 2012Reply With Quote
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Oh my goodness...I confused two firearms.... Confused I am not shooting BP in the rifle barrel of that drilling, I'm using Trail Boss over a cast bullet. BP in the shotgun barrels. I also worked up a Unique load that is more accurate than the Trail Boss load. It is that accurate and did eat out the X-ring and as I said is the most accurate of my 4 drillings...

The cartridge I was thinking of that I'm using BP in and had that experience....with the fouling... is a petite Johann Outschar stalking rifle in 9.3 X 2 7/16. It too is that accurate. For an 1870's - '80's barrel it is like new. Sorry....too many recent load work-ups....and a feeble mind!


DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE
E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R

Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it
 
Posts: 502 | Location: In The Sticks, Missouri  | Registered: 02 February 2014Reply With Quote
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