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I'll have a Rubin
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Picture of richj
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It's been mucked with. I'll get a look at it tonight.

Value ????



 
Posts: 5896 | Location: NY, NY | Registered: 28 November 2005Reply With Quote
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If it's got a good bore $175. Since the metal hasn't been monked with, you could find an original stockset to put it in and restore it.
 
Posts: 3236 | Location: SC,USA | Registered: 07 March 2002Reply With Quote
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I gave him $250.

 
Posts: 5896 | Location: NY, NY | Registered: 28 November 2005Reply With Quote
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If you're happy then it was a good deal. You can rest assured that he was happy with your money. Seriously though, I had one a few months ago that went for $300.00 + I have seen them listed for much more, so you did O.K.


Never mistake motion for action.
 
Posts: 17357 | Location: Austin, Texas | Registered: 11 March 2013Reply With Quote
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That looks like a K1911 action, could be older, but I don't have a Schmidt Rubin model before the 1911 action.

Understand, that older action is not as strong, and is very flexible compared with the later K31 action.











the lugs on a K31 are on the front of the action, which means the bolt and the receiver stretch/bow less than a rear lugged action.



The K11 action the load path from the cartridge, to the lugs, is about four inches back, and that means four inches of bolt, and four inches of receiver is under stress and flexing. Given the earlier metallurgy, and the long load path, you should try load your cartridges at the bottom of the recommended loads in a manual.
 
Posts: 1195 | Registered: 10 October 2005Reply With Quote
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thanks.
 
Posts: 5896 | Location: NY, NY | Registered: 28 November 2005Reply With Quote
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IDK if you reload for the caliber, but the 7.5x55 Swiss is a little different for the later K31. If you buy dies, make sure they are not K31-specific. Most are not. The difference is the shoulder diameter as I recall. A tad bigger for the K31.
 
Posts: 997 | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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the 1896 or 1911 actions are very strong and capable for GP11 or 7.62Nato pressures. Slammie, notice the huge lugs on the Swiss 96/11 actions. They are much larger than say Swede 96 mausers lugs which have been converted to 308. The weakest Swiss action would be the 1889 action with the large lugs truly at he rear of the action. 89 rifles had three groove barrels. 89's were rated as last ditch effort with GP11. BestAll
 
Posts: 263 | Location: Tampa | Registered: 01 March 2002Reply With Quote
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K00/11

Rifle Name: Modell 00/11 Carbine
Manufacturer: Eidgenössische Waffenfabrik Bern (W+F)
Calibre: 7.5x55 GP11
First Issued: 1911
Number of Pieces: 26335
Overall Length: 1103 mm
Weight (unloaded): 3900 g
Barrel Length: 592 mm ~ 23"
Rifling: 270 mm - 1:10.5"
Rifling Dir.: R
Grooves: 4
Magazine Capacity: 6 Rounds
 
Posts: 5896 | Location: NY, NY | Registered: 28 November 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by lonniemike:
the 1896 or 1911 actions are very strong and capable for GP11 or 7.62Nato pressures. Slammie, notice the huge lugs on the Swiss 96/11 actions. They are much larger than say Swede 96 mausers lugs which have been converted to 308. The weakest Swiss action would be the 1889 action with the large lugs truly at he rear of the action. 89 rifles had three groove barrels. 89's were rated as last ditch effort with GP11. BestAll


This is horrible advice.

Would the comparison of lug size, as a safety indication, be valid if the bolt was made out of Swiss cheese? Probably not. What do you know about the hardness, heat treatment, ultimate and yield of the steel in these older rifles? Nothing right?

A simple question, what was the pressures of the 6.5 X 55 cartridge and of the earlier 7.5 x 55 cartridges? And what is the operating pressure of a 308 Win cartridge?

These older actions by virtue of manufacture and of the metallurgy of the period, should not be stressed beyond the pressures of the original cartridge. Period. And, based on my research into the Gewehr 1888, which were blowing frequently with 43,000 psia 8mm Mauser ammunition that it created an antisemitic scandal, and then the numbers of bolt lugs cracking on pre WW1 M1898's, there is real risk involved in shooting the antiques of the era.

Look at the book "German Military Rifles , 88 and 91 firearms" by Dieter Storz. Mr Storz has a significant section on the "Judenflinten" (Jewish Gun) scandal and metallurgical failures of the 1888 Commission rifles. The 1888 was an early smokeless round, the metals of the era, plain carbon steels with a lot of slag and impurities, and the occasional Ludwig and Loewe made 1888 blew up. So did the occasional 1888's made by other manufacturers. But the fact that Ludwig and Loewe were Jewish owned, allowed German Anti Semitics to claim:

The next scandal was caused by a pamphlet of (Hermann) Ahlwardt, “ Judenflinten,” (jewish guns) in which he accused the armament firm of Ludwig Lowe of being bribed by the Alliance Israelite of Paris to deliver inferior guns to the Prussian Army , so that the latter might be defeated in the next war of revenge. The falsity of the charge was proved by a Government official, but it was not until after thousands of copies of the pamphlet had been sold in the streets that it was confiscated, and Ahlwardt, after prosecution, was sentenced to five months imprisonment

Anti-Semitism in Germany. Israel Cohen, 1918
https://archive.org/stream/ant...minge00cohe_djvu.txt

Swedish rifles were also built to a 43,000 psia service load and higher pressure loads can, will, and have pushed the receiver seats back far enough to blow the receiver ring. And, just because a soon to be bankrupt Kimber used surplus M1896 actions and converted them to 308 Win, really that is not a safety endorsement.

Cautions on Swedish Mauser actions converted to .30-06, .270. etc.
http://forums.gunboards.com/sh...ted-to-30-06-270-etc

The Kimber's suffered from setback more from excess headspacing than anything else. they were hastily cobbled together rifles meant to maximize profits and many were down right dangerous.

I worked on four or five Kimber sporters last year uin 6.5x55. They all had excess headspace. Seems barrels were simply reprofiled and screwed on. Several had the top lug contacting the breech face. Hard to check headsace under those conditions.

FN and Interarms made .375 H&H's, as well as Early Weatherby's built on FN actions, had much more of the bottom lug web (feed ramp to some) removed than an -06 conversion on a '96. Strength is a relative term, how is it being gaged? Gas handling is a much more valid reason to shy away from high pressure conversions on '96's. Then again, compare gas handing of the 96 to a pre-64 Winchester Model 70.



That was an interesting link. Some good information there, especially about the sloppy work Kimber did in chambering their M96 actions in 308 Win. Now, lest anyone forget, that version of Kimber went bankrupt. Companies in financial distress are not to be trusted, they will lie and shovel out dangerous, lethal products. The leaders of companies are notorious for taking their loot, then declaring the company bankrupt and leaving the liability on the customers and suppliers. For example, how is your Enron stock portfolio doing? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron Enjoying big earnings now that Enron blew up? Never would have known the company was in trouble from what the CEO and CFO were claiming.


As for old Schmidt Rubin models:

Schmidt Surprise
American Rifleman Dope Bag March 1992

Editor:

Some 33 years ago, I allowed a “gunsmith” at his suggestion, to rebarrel a straight-pull Schmidt-Rubin for me. Using a 30 cal. Springfield barrel, the rifle became a 308 Win. Little did I realize the Schmidt Rubin wasn’t designed to handle 308 pressures!

The rifle blew ujp on the 43rd shot. Barrel and receiver parted, the stock was broken, and a lot of pressure passed through the magazine.

I was stunned, cut and confused by the explosion. My arm required stickes to close the wound, but the bolt did not open, thank heaven. I still shudder when I think of that long bolt and how much damage its rearward movement might have caused.


E. Tracy Rhodes, Lewisburg PA.

Knowing what was on the market in 1959, and the description of the bolt, the most probable action involved was a 1911 Schmidt Rubin, though there is an outside chance of even an earlier model. The K31 was an extremely rare find prior to the 1990’s. I purchased a K31 in the late 1980’s, 1990’s, and the seller had gone to Switzerland bought it from a retired Soldier. Swiss Soldiers could make private purchases of issue Schmidt Rubins. Then later in the 1990’s came all the flood of K31’s. However prior to that, the ones I saw and handled were 1911 Schmidt Rubins.
 
Posts: 1195 | Registered: 10 October 2005Reply With Quote
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6.5 Swede ~43KCUP, 7.5 Swiss ~46KCUP and (it's ballistic twin) 7.62Nato ~52 KCUP. You probably knew that. Point being both Swede M96 and SwissM96/11 have been converted to 308 for years. Keep posting those blown up actions. Amazing the Swiss pushed a 174 grainer at 2650 fps in 1911, actually earlier. After borrowing a Swiss bullet in the 1930's Mr. Hatcher got a faster bullet than the blunt one the US had used until then. A Swiss 89 action is rated for38-39KCUP. And can convert to 30/40. I'd guess that your 1959 blow up article was an 89 action and or a bad gunsmith job, maybe both. ?Or maybe anyone with a bubba Swiss 96/11 in 308 had better not shoot them any more. just throw them away. So slammie fill in the void for the last sixty plus years of blown up 308 Swiss rifles. Throwaway those 7.62Nato Swede's too, or is it 308 Kimbers only. Some gunsmiths are better than others perhaps. Perhaps some cheeses are stronger than others. BestAll
 
Posts: 263 | Location: Tampa | Registered: 01 March 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by lonniemike:
Amazing the Swiss pushed a 174 grainer at 2650 fps in 1911, actually earlier.


On fairness those 1911 barrels were 31" long.
 
Posts: 997 | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by delloro:
quote:
Originally posted by lonniemike:
Amazing the Swiss pushed a 174 grainer at 2650 fps in 1911, actually earlier.


On fairness those 1911 barrels were 31" long.


And that longer barrel does make a difference.

I had a limited number of Swiss rounds to fire, and then developed my own loads using slow burning powders at or near the service velocities.

7.5 x 55 Swiss Model K-31

AP11 Swiss Ball headstamp DA 78
24 Mar 04 T = 70 ° F


Ave Vel = 2565
Std Dev = 11
ES = 23
Low = 2551
High = 2574
N= 4


This load is accurate, WC852 is a slow burning powder, I assume pressures are at or below the Swiss loads.

174gr .308 FMJBT 57.0 gr wt'd WC852 Norma cases, Fed210S OAL 2.900

30-Apr-97 T= 75F

Ave Vel = 2563
Std Dev = 24
ES = 59
Low = 2543
High = 2602
N = 5

Indep factory ammunition must have been loaded light. They are probably worried about liability and all those old antiques out there.

170 grain FMJBT Indep Factory

1 Dec 01 T = 52 ° F

Ave Vel = 2155
Std Dev = 47
ES = 132
Low = 2104
High = 2236
N = 10

Swiss T case velocities, a little different average.

174 FMJBT 57.0 WC852 Swiss "T" case WLR OAL 2.85"

19-Oct-04 T = 75 ° F

Ave Vel = 2530
Std Dev = 15
ES = 53
Low = 2509
High = 2562
N = 19
N = 15




The thing is, now that lonniemike has shown us the velocities and pressures of the service loads, he ought to make a case why it is safe to exceed service pressures in old antique firearms.

I am going to claim that the devices were designed to a maximum pressure, which translates to a load. Just multiple surface area of the cartridge case head time maximum pressure, and that is the load.

Does it make sense that the makers of these rifles constructed them out of more expensive materials, with higher yields and ultimate strengths, anticipating that civilians 100 years hence would be using over pressure cartridges in them?

And why would they do that?

Old structures made out of old materials do not self heal, and they get worse with time

Are your guns tired and stressed?

https://www.americanrifleman.o...-tired-and-stressed/

And, is it magical thinking to assume that over stressing a structure beyond its design limits will not have detrimental consequences?

A person who can make that case needs to apply for a job in the White House as an economic adviser to the President. We need more fools who will make the case that a huge deficit won’t lead to inflation, and what ever fiscal problems the current administration has created with printing so much money will go away.

Magical thinking by optimists will, and has, hurt others. I am also going to claim that any structure made by man can be unmade by man. And that it is bad policy to follow the advice of Polly Anna optimists. Optimism is a denial of reality. Extreme optimism is an extreme denial of reality.
 
Posts: 1195 | Registered: 10 October 2005Reply With Quote
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31's are very strong. Hammereli offered 31's in 300 magnum among others. Your service loads and your 31 will last about forever. Why don't 7.5 to 308 Swiss conversions blow up more often? There are plenty of them around. The 96/11 actions were designed to accept GP89 paperpatched ammo. Who knew that those 96/11 actions had such wide chambers and long freebore? It was not Roy Weatherby. When the right Santa Fe or Alpine 308 Sporter show up, I'll add it to my collection. Slam, Where are more pics or articles of Swede or Swiss 308 incidents/blowups/other? Best
 
Posts: 263 | Location: Tampa | Registered: 01 March 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by lonniemike:
31's are very strong. Hammereli offered 31's in 300 magnum among others. Your service loads and your 31 will last about forever. Why don't 7.5 to 308 Swiss conversions blow up more often? There are plenty of them around. The 96/11 actions were designed to accept GP89 paperpatched ammo. Who knew that those 96/11 actions had such wide chambers and long freebore? It was not Roy Weatherby. When the right Santa Fe or Alpine 308 Sporter show up, I'll add it to my collection. Slam, Where are more pics or articles of Swede or Swiss 308 incidents/blowups/other? Best


Your justification to use these actions for cartridges and at pressures they were never designed for is rather gaseous. You are free to act however you want. I will act more prudently.
 
Posts: 1195 | Registered: 10 October 2005Reply With Quote
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richj, check out SwissRifles.com's web site for a lot of things Swiss. BestAll
 
Posts: 263 | Location: Tampa | Registered: 01 March 2002Reply With Quote
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Nice rifle.

I have a soft spot for k11 and k31. If you ever want to sell I will buy it.

I shoot ppu and g11 in 7.5x55 thru both k11 and k31.

Mike
 
Posts: 13145 | Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida | Registered: 22 July 2010Reply With Quote
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Mike

it's yours if you want it. check your PM

rich
 
Posts: 5896 | Location: NY, NY | Registered: 28 November 2005Reply With Quote
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Rebarreling a m96 to 308w has never been a common practice here in Sweden. As 7,62 has been the military cartridge here sence the late 1960s, my father did his military service with the HK G3/AK4 1970, he bought a BSA hunting rifle in .308w as he got free military ammo. There were no reason to convert m96s to 308w as 6,5 and 8*57 were popular hunting cartridges and for the 6,5 you could get free ammo about year 2000 the military gave away 6,5mm ammo to competition clubs then it were dropped as a service round in the late 1990s.
 
Posts: 3605 | Location: Sweden | Registered: 02 May 2009Reply With Quote
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