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Sort of like shoes? The 323 and 35 calibers killed LOTS of stuff before 1940. So maybe the modern cartridges are the inbetweeners? As in between the original, classic cartridges? "Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" -- Ronald Reagan "Ignorance of The People gives strength to totalitarians." Want to make just about anything work better? Keep the government as far away from it as possible, then step back and behold the wonderment and goodness. | |||
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There is a point (really it's a cliff) beyond which every additional insult to the acoustic nerve translates as literally months of stuffiness, new and fluctuating tinnitus, incrementally greater conversational impairment, and (in my case) even vertigo symptoms. I have fired my last round - range or field - rifle or shotgun - sans electronic muffs. Having "arrived" the question of muzzle brakes vs unbraked distills simply to a) whether I'll be close enough to another person (includes horses) not wearing hearing protection and/or b) whether the muzzle may be within 1 foot of a sandy surface. Can pretty much answer "no" to both. (I'd hurt myself going prone, anyway) Sambarman is right about recoil. But I can easily manage a braked .375 Ruger. The GG recoil with 300s at 2550 fps is indistinguishable from unbraked .300 Win/Roy weenies (180 gr, 2900 fps) recoil level. Dismiss all this as anecdotal if you like, but every hunter - no exceptions - experiences some permanent hearing loss when he discharges even a .243 without protection. Braked or unbraked. There are no safe limits of exposure at those sound levels. Please forgive if this sounds strident, but it stinks to have an audiogram like mine. There are some very comfortable, acoustically excellent options now. FWIW, I use the MSA-Sordin. Or use plugs........whatever.......just use something. | |||
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I have a permanent ring in my ears from just two incidents in my entire life: 1) improperly fitting SureFire plugs on a skeet range one day 2) no roll-in in ear hearing protectors at the range one day next to a guy with a muzzle brake. I had hearing protectors, but I always use in ear plugs as well when at the range - except this day. Ring, Ring, Ring. "Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" -- Ronald Reagan "Ignorance of The People gives strength to totalitarians." Want to make just about anything work better? Keep the government as far away from it as possible, then step back and behold the wonderment and goodness. | |||
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sep, The length action required for both the .338 Winchester and the .358 Norma is the same since both cartridge lengths are roughly the same. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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I love the in between calibers; the 25 and the 35 are the best, for me. Used the 257 Roberts since 1974 now. And my new favorite is the 350 Rem Mag; flings a 250 grainer at 2550 easily, with only 51 grains of powder. Quite efficient. And I have used the 35 Rem all my life, literally since age 10. Now, the Norma is more of the same thing but uses 70 grains of powder for not that much more velocity than the 350 and kicks a lot more. I feel the 35 wheeler/350 Rem is the best in this caliber. For me. If I want more I go to 375. Now, 323/8mm? Useless. Let it die. | |||
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"The 25 caliber, 323 caliber, 35 caliber.... all fall in this category" (6mm), 6,5mm,(7mm),8mm,9mm not inbetween. 5,6, 7,62, 8,6 inbetween | |||
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Another "in-between" cartridge that is returning to use is the 404 Jeffery. It's actually a .423" which puts it in-between the 375s and the 458s. | |||
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+1  25-06: Antelope & Deer 35 Whelen: Elk & bigger | |||
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The 416 Ruger does more than the 404 factory, and comes in moderately priced factory rifles. Why spend more for less, and carry something heavier? +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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8 x 57IS loaded to adult pressure will push a 200gr bullet over 2700 fps. That's over 3300 ft# of Me. + or - 3" PBR to 300 yds with 2000 ft# of remaining at 280 yds. A 30-06 would be hard pressed to equal that performance with a 200 gr bullet. What sort of Mv would a 35 need to equal that versatility? Better bullet selection than the 35 and even the 338 globally. Given the popularity of the 8 x 57IS and 8 x 68S in Europe, I hardly think the 8mm will die any time soon. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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I'm curious what someone's 8x something, 9.3x something or even worse a .25 something has to do with the original discussion? Why is it every time a particular caliber discussion starts a few have to chime in that their favorite is somehow better? The topic was the .358 Norma and those who like it not how great wonderful your .22 RF is. Sheesh!  Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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sep, The length action required for both the .338 Winchester and the .358 Norma is the same since both cartridge lengths are roughly the same.[/QUOTE] Thank you. I stand corrected. For some reason, I thought it needed a long action like the 375 H&H or 8MM Rem Mag. The standard length action would be a plus for the 358 Norma from my viewpoint. | |||
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When i was looking for a nice plains game all around rifle, getting closer to 40 years ago, I would have taken a 358 Norma if readily available in W70 or RugerM77. They weren't. A M70 338 WM cost $350, the 375 H&H was $550 and .375" Nosler Partitions were not available at the time. It was an easy call and the 338 did everything asked of it and more. Today I would happily take a 358, but practicality still raises its head. The 375 Ruger is an amazing buy in a factory rifle so that is in our safe waiting for the day when hunting reopens and my wife can strut her stuff. Yes. She likes the balance of a 20" barrel and a 13" LOP.But a 358 in the same package would equally be awesome. We live in good times even if the sun is low on the horizon in the hunting fields. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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I started this bucket of worms so my last dieing breath on the subject is the 358 Norma has the advantage of bullet cross section and that's a real plus BUT the 338 Win. has the sectional Density and shoots flatter and penetrates better..Thats the difference and the reason I shoot a .338 Win...I still morn for a 358 Norma, it has to be about as good a Cape Buffalo caliber as the .375 H&H and it shoots flatter and has more sectional density and penetration..Didn't I just say that???  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I have had three .358 Norma rifles over the years, with my current one being built on a 1903 Springfield action. It is one of my favorite rounds for elk or Alaska. A 225-grain Barnes-X or Nosler Accubond at 2,800 fps is hard to beat in my book. One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know. - Groucho Marx | |||
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I think it was John Barsness who wrote that once bullet diameter gets up to .35 he notices a visible difference on game. I don't have enough time on my .338 to confirm that but the .350 Rem mag that I have and dpcd loves so much definitely whacks game hard for its size. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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Everything is a sliding scale and depends on the quarry to some degree. Yes, 33-35 caliber does put the hurt on a smaller deer. But in Africa, I've heard people say that .375" can kill a buffalo but doesn't get their attention. Back in the day .4" was considered buffalo medicine and .5" is what got their attention. The simple matter is: diameter counts.
Agreed. Works for the 338 WinMag, too. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Well obviously that's true but the original discussion was about the the .358 Norma in the American market and no one mentioned African DG game. It and the other .35's mentioned have a greater effect on game larger than deer for heaven sakes.  Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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'Barsness The Prolific' (but often unnecessarily effusive) may be on to something regarding the lethality of .35-dia bullets, in addition to one's particular choices concerning their weight. The .350 RM most certainly does "whack game hard," but its real genius - and the reason the cartridge was at least 40 years ahead of its time, decades before short magnums became all the rage among rifle-makers - is because you could stuff the 350 RM into a short-action "carbine-sized" weapon that gave you (roughly) the same ballistics as a .35 Whelen ... but without all the weight, length, or bulk of a long-barreled rifle as the platform. It's really shameful that a rifle-maker, like, say, CZ, never chambered this cartridge in a short-action CFR carbine (550-type), sized and stocked similarly to the now-extinct Remy 600. All The Best ... | |||
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Ray as has been said, it would have been a success here if Winchester would have necked up their .338 Win Mag and names it the .358 win Mag.,(almost the same thing) and then of course made factory ammo easily available. And you probably would have owned a dozen of them over your long life!!!  | |||
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I love the 35 Whelen. What I like about it, is the weight of the rifle. It weighs the same as my 30-06, or for that matter, my 25-06, at about 7 1/2 lbs. But, it shoots bullets of .358" diameter, weighing from 225 to 310 grs. In a lightweight rifle! Under 350 yds. I prefer my 35 Whelen. If the game is 400 yds. or longer, I'd switch to my 338WM, which I also love, but the barrels are longer and the rifles weigh more (mine at least). For big medium-rifle power, my Whelen rifles satisfy my requirements for power & light weight. Having said all that, the Ruger African rifles in 9.3x62, 9.3x66(converted), and 375Ruger also satisfy those requirements with rifles of the same weight (7 1/2 lbs.) but with even larger calibers and heavier bullets. I too, believe something happens at 35 caliber & higher in it's affect on game. I cannot prove it, so it's just an opinion. Except for the mathematical fact of larger diameter bullets.  Life is good!!  | |||
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No doubt the 358 NM is a great North American big/dangerous game caliber. We have a 375 Weatherby in a 7 1/4 lb synthetic/stainless/Cerakoted rifle. A 300g A-Frame at 2700 plus fps seems to fit that niche nicely for us and can shoot the more sedate 375 H&H factory rounds when we want to as well. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Well, I guess my next rifle project is a 358 Norma. Either Wayne at AHR can do one for me, or I'll have Dakota use a 'Safari' stock blank that they have already turned, and have them make me a Safari with a 23" barrel and all of the regular 'goodies'. Hmmmm. Which one? They both do great work. This of course, is half the fun... | |||
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Sounds like a winner to me! Recoil is relative to each individual. So how is a full power 300 gr. Weatherby in a 7 1/4 lb. rifle in the recoil dept. to you guys? I've never shot any Weatherby cartridges. It's gotta' be more than a 358 Norma, right? How would you compare the two? | |||
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Well they kind of did. It's called the CZ550FS in 9.3x62 and I have one. They also temporarily put the same 20" barreled action in a synthetic stock, this was the carbine. I took mine on a bear hunting trip in northern Alberta this spring but unfortunately didn't connect on anything.  But the rifle worked well on the daily atv ride through the muskeg that's required to get to the stand. Short barreled rifles are just the thing in this environment.   Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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Wow! That's really nice, although I'd have wanted the synthetic stock version if it was available. But yes, 20" is good for that type of environment. All The Best ... | |||
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IMO, the 9.3x62 is an awesome caliber for about anything, a bit of a short range rifle, but some decent velocity can be had with lighter bullets like the 250 gr...Most of mine have had 26 inch barrels and that made a difference on my African 9.3x62 on buffalo, hippo and on Lion or leopard..and Ive had a couple of 24 inch barrels but I like to squeeze every bit of velocity out of a 9.3x62 or 64 for that matter and long barrels don't bother me in the least in the thick stuff or across the plains. I just like'em that way..ONe of the reasons Ive leaned toward the .338 Win. over the years, but Ive always been off and on both calibers..I have both for that reason. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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My son and I can shoot 375 H&H factory 300g A-Frames through it all day. The extra 200 fps in the Weatherby loading does make it snappier, but still not any big deal. We shoot the 500 Jeffery first, and then the 375 feels like a 30-06 best, Chuck Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Good plan!!! Thanks for the info Chuck.  | |||
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I believe in cross section of bullet on DG and have practiced that to some extent in Africa..It doesn't mean a lot to me in NA where soft skinned game is dominant, except for the big bears...Its a option to consider.. I don't care for the 375 Wby or any high velocity DG rifle for big mean animals. They seem to stress bullet construction and most of the velocity ends up headed for DAr Es Salaam, and that's not bad come to think of it! For DG I've pretty much restricted velocity to 2200 to 2400 FPS with 40 calibers like the 416s and the 404..A 458 is fine at 2100 FPS and that cross section is a terminator..Just my take, and to each his own.I think the 358 NOrma fills a gap in NA, and to a lesser extent in Africa, Ive always intended to own one, but I have a .338 and am sold on it also, and I don't think the 358 is that much more at all, they are close to a match so I'll probably never own one. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Speaking of the 35 caliber, I really like the 35 Whelen when combined with the 250 grain Oryx. The recoil is bearable and it is just perfect for moose or boar. We do not shoot at long distances here in Europe because of the "terrain", so most of us are wood hunters where shots rarely exceed 150 yards. However, the 358 Norma would make sense for me, especially for the travelling hunter to North America and Africa where longer shots must be often realized. Its nice to be prepared for everything, especially when you think of bear or the massive eland. | |||
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Well, I've never owned a 308Win and have never hunted with one. Maybe the 308 is too "inbetween" the 270 and 338. I've hunted with 30-06 and 300mags. They are OK and they also made the 308 look questionable. But -- every caliber has its special features. The 308 comes in very lightweight rifles and can be loaded with respectable bullets for plains game. So I've come full circle to wanting one for a grandkids' rifle for Africa. I've never owned one but I will. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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You're steppin' on my toes here Ray Atkinson. The 358 Winchester is my baby. I haven't shot anything as large as an Elk but I think my .308 could do the trick. 30-30s did for a long time and still work. Just for that I may have to get that cherry 308 fullstock Ruger tanger I bought from you rebored to .358 Winchester and kill some elk with it!  | |||
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Picked up my rifle today from the gunsmith. Now I have to refinish the stock, bed it, and blue it and it will be ready for the range. Narrowed down my bullet list to the 250 gr Oryx and 275 gr Woodleigh PP, both with Norma brass and RL-16. "Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" -- Ronald Reagan "Ignorance of The People gives strength to totalitarians." Want to make just about anything work better? Keep the government as far away from it as possible, then step back and behold the wonderment and goodness. | |||
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RAy B, A good post but you din allow for the fact that the 338 Win was an overnight success, it became popular over quite a number of years, as folks tried them out, and the American elk hunter gradually sold their 06s and 270s and went to the 338 Win. and now its making roads into Africa as they try it out..It earned its rep the hard way, by doing what it was designed to do and doing it so well...not many calibers can make that claim..I see more .338s these days in Idhao than any caliber short of the 30-06 that still holding its own pretty well, but even it is moving over for the .338 Win..Amazingly I see more .338s than 300 Win mags these days. Maybe I stay with the .338 is the SD, it penetrates as deep as any caliber Ive used and more than the 358 Norma, albeit does not have the cross section of bullet the 358 has..Guess I opted for the SD, and ease of components.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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As I read this thread I felt myself falling in love with the notion of a Norma Mag. But this just makes sense to me. If the 358 NM were legal for DG, that would be one thing. But for all others intents and purposes it is a solution looking for a problem that doesnt really exist. I guess Ill just stick with my Whelen. | |||
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Wow. I feel fortunate to have this.  Remington Model 30 Express in 358 Norma Magnum. Built by Mark Chanlynn. Used on one hunt then sat in a safe. I bought it a few months ago. It was a bargain. I need to get some one-off scope bases made to replace the Pachmayr swing-away mount. Maybe replace that stock. | |||
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Just a comment, but is it possible that the lack of bullet weights in the .358 diameter has been part of the problem. When I got my Model 77 Ruger, basically the only factory loaded ammo came in either 200 grain or 250 grain. Thankfully Barnes offered different weights and in working with my Whelen the 225 grain Barnes "X" Flat Base turned out to be the right bullet for my rifle. Probably if a person worked with the .358 Norma Mag using different bullet weights and powders, they would find a combination that would be fantastic. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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.358 Norma is a good cartridge, i have taken roesand moose with it,however the durrent Oryx bullet factory is soft and brittle . It likes better bullets. But big versatillity, use 180 .357 revolver bullets for practice,varmints. 225 for vetsatillity 250 as standard 310 woodleigh for big game, or 275 Woodleigh, northfork, swift as one bullet load for much hunting. It is a .3000 win trajectory with .375 smack was mr Rigby before a pc crash | |||
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