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I'm somewhat taken aback that some here might assume or think that this has been cooked or that there is in any way that what I have shown here is not what it is. Because aspects of this case involves me professionally I may not divulge certain aspects of the case. What I can say is I have personally seen the injuries and the patient in person; and I have personally seen the gun and the parts that could be retrieved, some are still missing. I have also seen part of the video in question. Sadly the original is encrypted and will not play back on some computers. There is a high resolution copy available that will be used in the process to search for answers as to the why. | |||
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Alf, There is no way this is a staged incident. Never though that for a second. I respect that your situation may restrict the level of insight you can provide. But I hope when an investigation is completed, and hopefully the cause found, you would be free to fully report here. Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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Yes, 30.06king, that collectors link does seem all right now (when I first went there, it opened right over the photos). Has anyone heard which models were recalled? With so many rifles mentioned, I'd be surprised if some AR members were not involved. Looking back at ALF's pics, it occurs to me that the shooter did not have his head up at all - the rifle has just disintegrated in all directions, leaving nothing much but the fore-end tip with bipod as the only outer parts anywhere near where they started. My thoughts on the cartridge case are that it may have hit something as it was 'ejected' from the disassembling assembly but been in good shape until that instant. I'm not all that surprised the bolt shroud blew off, considering the skimpy lug used to hold the one on my old AV in place. | |||
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Jeez, that's really concerning; I have a Sako 85, although not a stainless one. I don't know whether this has been considered or mentioned here, but evidently the rifle was a stainless model. From the link LHeym500 provided, the earlier blow-ups from years back also involved stainless 85 models. Could this be another case of bad stainless steel? A question: If it were the ammunition (like a serious overcharge or the wrong powder), would the damage be the same as what happened here? Just wondering whether it could be Federal's fault for the ammunition. ______________________________ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell | |||
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ALF, is there any new information from Federal or any other source on this blow-up? I also shoot a Sako stainless steel model 85 in .300 Win. I have never had any trouble with mine. Thanks. Dale | |||
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Incredible events. I'm happy that the shooter is 'on the mend.' I agree that it is improbable that dented case was the detonating round. It was likely previously fired, laying on the bench and was hit by shrapnel. The case head picture shows no pressure issues. I'm going to opine that it was a squib load that preceded the detonation. Damn right its loaded, it makes a lousy club. -JW | |||
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I'm glad that the shooter wasn't injured more seriously. And Alf, thank you for getting this information out to us. After looking at the photos, I am having a difficult time understanding how that case could have been involved in that blow up. The case looks good other than the dents in the neck and shoulder, the case is perfect(not even a shiny spot), the primer looks perfect, etc. If the lugs just gave way under the load of the case-head, shouldn't the case have stretched ahead of the belt as the case-head moved rearward, allowing the case to rupture? None of that makes sense to me. But how could the gasses get past that case to blow up the action, but leave the brass looking relatively pristine? My eyes may deceive me, but it really appears that brass has sprayed all over the bolt-face and onto the newly sheared bolt-lugs. And there appears to be powder burns on the bolt face which look like a blown primer. In the frame from the video, there appears to be a lot of smoke which would seem to indicate that the gasses vented. That bolt-head looks so similar to the ones I have seen that failed due to a ruptured case that I mind is having a hard time accepting that that wasn't the cause in this failure. Alf, I'm not doubting you or this incident, but is is possible that that case was not the one in the rifle when fired? looking at the condition, I would have thought that it was possibly a previously fired case that was on the bench below the rifle as it exploded. It's just hard to imagine how the steel receiver could peel open like a banana all the way back through the rear ring, yet that soft brass case which was at "ground zero" made it out in looking almost untouched? Fascinating stuff. I hope that someone figures out the cause of this failure. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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All rifles have blown up!! MOd 70, 98 Mausers, Wby, every make and model..mostly man caused.. I would not and have not owned any Sako but the L series, and a couple of A series..The A series was borderline IMO..TheL-series are great rifles.. As to blow ups the ugly Jap Arisaka is the strongest action I know of; the Mauser tends to puff up and may split, A model 70 will send shrapnel in every direction..All three are considered safe IMO when used properly, may be exceptions under extreme conditions, probably uncalled for.. That said all these blow ups are mostly man caused and man denied, a little knowledge is a "dangerous thang, Billy Bob" Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Except we know Sakos have blown up because of Company Material. This occurred with factory ammo. The squib load seems very plausible looking at the condition of the recovered case. Even then, one would think the barrel would go. The action not so much. | |||
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Ray, what do you see as the significant difference between L series Sakos and the A series? Mine has AIII on the side but I had always thought of it as just an L61R with a slightly better bolt shroud. (I've long resented their refusal to cover the l/h lug runway. Though they provided a flange on the bolt to prevent gas flow towards the user, this matter bears some resemblance to the situation of Caesar's wife.) | |||
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The early L61R had a third "safety" lug at the rear, but there was essentially no difference between the late L61R and the AIII other than the striker shroud. The same is true of the L461//AI and the L579/AII. In fact, internally, the Sako factory continued to refer to the three actions under their "L" designations. The "A" moniker appears to have been mostly for marketing purposes. The AV, for some reason, used a longer action tang, but the action bolts were in the same place. Later A-series had a different trigger and used the more rounded "Hunter"-style stock. Some of the "A" series used a black synthetic magazine follower. At some point the factory changed over from milling to CNC machining, but it wasn't necessarily associated with the change in action designation. Sakos always had a gas port in the LH side of the receiver ring. I suppose they considered this adequate to prevent gas coming down the LH bolt raceway. During more than a half-century of shooting Sakos I have had a number of primer failures (some of them my own fault) with various Sakos. The result is typically the unseating of the extractor and some gas out the RH side of the action (although the bolt sleeve pretty well blocks it from the shooter.) Perhaps due to the LH gas vent I've never had gas come through the LH bolt raceway. | |||
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Had 2 primer failures with my LH Sako AV .270 Win. Never had any gas hit me in the face. Both times I lost the extractor which is highly annoying. Over here it's not a cheap part to replace. Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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Each time this happened to me I found the extractor inside the action and was able to re-install it without getting any new parts. I did once buy a Sako which had a broken extractor, a fact that the seller did not disclose. Several companies make "Sako-style" extractors to retro fit to the Remington 700 (a very bad idea from the safety point of view). They are fairly inexpensive if you are in the U.S., and those fit the original Sako perfectly. | |||
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Basically, what Stonecreek stated is the difference between the two, add to that the cleaner lines of the L series as to the Shroud, and it just nicer when customized and stock, and that's a personal preference. I have never had any kind of problem with the L or A series therefore I have no dog in this fight. There are examples of every known action known to man that have blown up for various reasons. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Not trying to start an argument, I just want to understand. Is the Sako action design different from the M700 that the Sako extractor is not a safety concern in a Sako rifle? Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Well, IMHO there is no way that case head was connected with that blowup. Massive overload is my guess. That kind of pressure would have flattened the primer and mashed out the head stamp. I've seen a .308 Win fired in a .25-06 Rem 700 and the rifle was placed back into service with a new bolt. The only other explanation would be hyper-brittle hardening of the bolt and receiver; hard to fathom. | |||
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Perhaps due to Sako using a guide bar, in the right side bolt raceway, whereas the M700 does not. Kevin | |||
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As Kevin states above, the bolt guide on a Sako occupies the RH bolt raceway, largely blocking blowback through that raceway. The Rem 700 has no bolt guide so the RH raceway is open, thus escaping gas from a primer/case failure can blow through the cut made for the extractor (and maybe take the extractor with it) into the RH raceway and potentially into the shooter's face. It is not a question of action strength or quality, just that the Rem 700 was not designed for an extractor which compromises its gas-handling feature of the enclosed bolt face. | |||
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Thanks all Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Using the Rem 700 as an example to condemn the Sako is ludicrous. Remington has some real skeltons in their closet, way more than Sako, most of that is public record, and by their admission in out of court settlements, and lost cases..That said both guns have served the public fault free for many years.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Alf Were the previously fired cases checked for erosion? The brass flow came from somewhere and it appears that it wasn't from the Fed round. Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
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Thanks for that explanation, Stonecreek. I saw what I recall was a picture of an L61R bolt somewhere recently. It looked to have a circumferal groove around it, not seen on my AIII, in front of the handle. It may have been from the L579 but definitely had only two lugs up front. | |||
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There are pictures of about all actions blown up, and the hallowed pre 64 is among them, there are folks out there blowing them up on purpose to creat havoc or fame...One thing I believe is you see the pressure signs and ignore them your a canidate for a wreck to happen, you were forewarned..There are a untold number of causes for these explosions, Thanks to folks like Alf, we usually get to the facts sooner or later after the masses finish their opines based on nothing.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Boy----This thread got so far off track that it's ridiculous!    Be careful boys---this is turning into the CAMPFIRE! Hip | |||
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Anyone hunted with Blair worldwide hunting before?  "Let me start off with two words: Made in America" | |||
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Confound it Bugle. | |||
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I think the original subject was addressed, but we got sidetracked with the discussion of the Sako blow-up. I think that is a subject worth addressing so maybe ALF can start a new thread and keep us updated. The reason I am interested is that I have a Sako 85, stainless steel, .300 Win., like the one that blew up. I would definitely be interested if they ever find the cause. | |||
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At least we were still talking about Sakos and their varying safety aspects - what have dodgy PHs got to do with it? | |||
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You're probably referring to an older L61R with the third (or "safety") lug at the rear of the bolt. Those had a very slightly recessed area just behind the rear lug. I think it had to do with how the bolt was manufactured, but later "two lug" bolts for the L61R, AIII, and AV lacked this subtle circumferential recess. | |||
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Thanks Stonecreek, and Happy New Year! | |||
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Strange indeed, needs to be investigated by an indapendent company. The last of the good SAKOs was the L series IMO, Ive had great luck with them..However the A series seems like an OK gun but the cocking piece is ugly.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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IMHO, Ray, the A series bolt shroud is not ugly enough. I would like it better if they had ditched the symmetry and extended it to cover or at least obscure the left lug runway. Though a flange on the bolt might stop gases escaping from it, I see a Caesar's wife aspect - it should not only be safe, it should look safe. | |||
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I think you meant the bolt shroud not the cocking piece, which is identical to that on the L-series models. Actually, I prefer the fully shrouded bolt sleeve (greatly reducing the likelihood of gases coming back into the shooter's face), but as sambarman338 suggests, it could probably have been designed to be even safer. As far as I can tell, there's really nothing in the L-series actions that is superior to the almost-identical A-series actions. The internals are just about identical. Stonecreek would know for sure. ______________________________ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell | |||
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To the contrary, there is nothing completely sure when it comes to Sakos and their features since they mixed-and-matched earlier and later parts over the years and through transitions. However, the differences in the L-series and the succeeding A-series are generally small and subtle. Other than the standard grade in the A-series having a little less lustrous blue (as did the very late L-series), there is nothing about them that I would regard as inferior. Despite experiencing some primer leaks (my fault) in the early non-shrouded L-series, I've never gotten any gas in the eye, but maybe I'm just lucky. | |||
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