I fail to see why nobody has mentioned the .25 auto for deer.

bfrshooter you need to go back and read a few posts to find the 25acp mentioned.

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
The game departments are in place to maintain and preserve huntable populations of game animals. Their movement into controlling what arms are used is just another power grab by a government entity.

If that's true what do you make of the Minnesota DNR simplifying its regulations in the extreme - .22 centerfire or larger and an expanding bullet. North Dakota G&F adopted Minnesota's previously complicated rules for a time but recently returned to a very simple definition - >.35, <.50, and a four inch barrel. Is it possible that these agencies have realized that they can meet their game management needs without hunters actually recovering their deer?

quote:

I fail to see why nobody has mentioned the .25 auto for deer.

OK, since we have a special request I'll take a stab at it.

For lack of a better available hunting partner, I once took this guy out to the farm. I didn't really know him that well, but we're about to correct that. When we get out of the truck to hunt, first thing that happens is we discover that he's forgot to bring his rifle..so we're already on a roll..

I feel sorry for him and offer him my .30-06 and the prime stand on the place. And I tell him I'll use the .357 Model 27 that I carried on hunts in those days. He says no thanks, he has another gun, and produces a pocket .25 acp. I think, oh no (well, that's not the exact word I used).

I try to talk him out of it, but he's adamant that he'll be fine and it'll take a deer..no problemo. And he insists on picking his own spot. All right, since you insist, after all, we're burnin' daylight here..

So I go way yonder and get in a stand. It's a long unproductive sit. Very windy day and they ain't moving. But, something funny. Every now and then I gradually become conscious of the fact there's this very faint noise. It sort of comes and goes from way far as the wind rises and falls.

After listening very hard for a long time I finally figure out what it is. It's a person talking.

Now here we are on a 1200 acre place with no others present. Therefore, there can only be one source. It's him. He's talking aloud and I can hear him clear across the farm.

Eventually after seeing nothing I get curious/angry and go to investigate. He's sitting out in the open on a tree stump engaged in a very loud animated political speech. And, no, there were no chairs arranged around him with an audience. No deer, coons and squirrels breathlessly listening, applauding or saluting.

Anyhow, I give it up and get myself and him back to the city...and care to guess if I ever made that mistake again??

Now, there's your .25 acp true hunting story. Feel free to connect the dots and draw the easy conclusion...

I guess any hunting partner is a good hunting partner after that.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:

quote:

I fail to see why nobody has mentioned the .25 auto for deer.

He says no thanks, he has another gun, and produces a pocket .25 acp...He's sitting out in the open on a tree stump engaged in a very loud animated political speech.

Makes me glad he declined your offer of a real weapon...

A 9MM in the right hands, loaded with the correct bullet will indeed take Deer effectively.
Energy is a poor indicator of leathality.

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Posted 30 October 2009 23:55 Hide Post
A 9MM in the right hands, loaded with the correct bullet will indeed take Deer effectively.
Energy is a poor indicator of leathality.

Sure it will, but who would chose it when there are better calibers? The nine has failed so many times on people and probably got more cops killed then even the .38.
It reminds me of the bunch that were shooting deer for fun with large blunts on arrows. They did not want to kill any. Turns out a lot were running off and dying from the damage.
Stupidity just breeds more stupidity.

You can discuss all you want, on what caliber or cartridge will do what under PERFECT conditions. HOWEVER we all know that hunting conditions are rarely perfect and even then very few hunters can restrain themselves from taking less than perfect shots.. F&G depts have thousands of tasks and somehow grabbing power by taking away your rights to choose what to hunt with is very hard to believe. F&G depts. make rules, BECAUSE that is what is best for the MAJORITY. I don't always agree with the rules, but I obey them anyway, because I am not the only person on the planet. There is only ONE THING THAT MATTERS here and that is taking game cleanly, quickly, humanely and ethically as is possible. This ain't trout fishing folks, a trout snaps your 1# test leader and in a couple days, its like it never happened, you start sticking underpowered bullets into big game animals and VERY often they escape to die a slow painful death, maybe to be found by a nonhunting landowner, hiker, park ranger, etc.. Why on earth would you want to hunt with something less than adequate, when you have a choice? Try being a big/dangerous game guide for a while and have to put your life on the line, because some "hunter" decided to prove their "skill" by using a weapon that they had no reason to use other than their own ego. I have had to "finish off" animals after the "hunter" ran out of ammunition. 12,14,19 shots and that was on animals recovered, not the ones that escaped. I have been there when landowners have put an end to hunting and it is a pretty sick feeling. You know who the REAL hunters are? They aren't the ones that try to stroke their own egos by hunting with things that everyone knows they shouldn't, they are the ones that make every effort to do the ethical thing.

The sky is falling!! The sky is falling!!!

Now, I am not advocating anyone pick up a Glock 17 and start blasting away at deer or anything else for that matter.

Our F&G department tried several years ago to establish a maximum caliber for rounds that could be carried in the woods outside of deer season. If one was found with anything larger than the specified rounds; that individual was automatically charged and prosecuted for deer hunting outside of the season. there was enough of an organized opposition to this foolishness that the idea was abandoned. I obey the game laws as well, because I don't have the time or patience to have to deal with them.

I doubt rather seriously you have recovered an animal that had been hit 19 times and managed to get away.

As far as ego, I don't need one; I have six children.

quote:

Posted 31 October 2009 22:37 Hide Post
The sky is falling!! The sky is falling!!!

Now, I am not advocating anyone pick up a Glock 17 and start blasting away at deer or anything else for that matter.

Our F&G department tried several years ago to establish a maximum caliber for rounds that could be carried in the woods outside of deer season. If one was found with anything larger than the specified rounds; that individual was automatically charged and prosecuted for deer hunting outside of the season. there was enough of an organized opposition to this foolishness that the idea was abandoned. I obey the game laws as well, because I don't have the time or patience to have to deal with them.

I doubt rather seriously you have recovered an animal that had been hit 19 times and managed to get away.

As far as ego, I don't need one; I have six children.


You'd be surprised how hard simple is on some people.

One time in Ohio a jerk I knew from work was hunting the same farm we were. He shot a small doe in buck season with a 12 ga slug. Made a bad hit and tracked her in the snow. By the time he finally killed her, he had hit her 11 times with slugs. There was almost nothing left to her. Then he had the nerve to ask the farmer if he could hang her in a shed.
Even with the best gun, the first shot if a little off will tell the story. You can kill with about anything, even a sharp stick, but sometimes you can't kill with even the biggest gun.
Too many say "shot placement" but get real. A standing animal shot from a rest is not the normal hunting scene. Then how many are immune to "buck fever?"
I don't pound 20 penny nails into oak with a tack hammer and I don't hunt with a toy.
Yeah, nobody said game departments are smart. You do not want to be caught small game hunting with anything larger then a .22 or shotgun when deer season is on in many states. Same if night hunting for fox or coons or you will be charged with deer hunting illegally. Do not light a deer's eyes when fox calling or you will be charged with spotlighting.

I'm a bit late getting into this thread. One question comes to mind. Why?

Why Not?

Not sure if it could get the job done because I have no experience either seeing it done or doing it myself. I would think that if you were indeed very very close, say 15-20 yards it may be doable but that is just a guess on my part.

I have taken two mule deer with a pistol. One buck a long time ago with a 44Mag at around 25 yards with a 240 grain cast slug over a good dose of 296. Another buck just recently with a Sig 226 is a 40 S&W using a 155 grain cast slug really moving over a very healthy dose of Power Pistol at around 40-45 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
We're back to the whole ft/lbs of energy crock. Game Departments for the most part are utterly clueless as to what is necessary to kill an animal. Therefore they, like the general population use energy figures as a means of determining the "fitness" of one cartridge compared to another because it is the only figure they understand.

I've known people who have killed more deer and lost far fewer with a .22 LR than some of the nimrods who claim one has to use a minimum of a .300 Win Mag; with that being on the near edge of light for deer. Energy just is NOT a good indication of the effectiveness on game animals.

Amen, brother!

I love a little sanity to leaven the insanity. Ft/lbs of energy are easy to calculate, there ends their usefulness as a measure of hunting effectiveness. .22 LR for big game is poaching since spotlighting is generally the only way to get a precision shot. I don't reload the 9 mm but precision shot placement, penetration to vitals and resulting damage are the factors to evaluate. The whole "no bottle neck cartridges" or "no cartridge less than a specific length" and so on are for the convenience of law enforcement, not reality based. Please don't use this as a reason to break the law however. Bullets that can be expected to defeat modest barriers, remain intact and expand modestly if lung shot are to be selected. The FBI barrier tests used to evaluate self defense bullets are the best of the type. I like bullets that hold together and make two holes but self defense rounds in pistols kill effectively, if one rib and two lungs are the intended targets. Cast bullets don't deliver the shock a good hollow point does. My personal experience was an elk cow with four hard cast 280 grain RCBS 270 SAA bullets at 950 fps from a .45 Colt in a group you could cover with your palm, at 50 yards. The cow still ran about 30 yards before collapsing. A few deer has collapsed on the spot with self defense 45 ACP and 45 ACP+p rounds through both lungs for me, Speer 200 grain "flying ashtray" bullets before Gold Dots, 185 grain .45 +P Gold Saber at 1150 fps, 230 grain Hydra Shock at 850 fps. No exit wounds to speak of, which dissatisfied me, but dead deer right there. I would expect no less from a 40 S&W or 9 mm at appropriate range, based on your skill and manufacture's velocity recommendations, to keep expansion velocity up and precision optimum. If you adjust your maximum range for variables like shooting position, lighting, options for follow up shots and so on, everything should work out fine. I would go for a hand loaded hard cast flat nose LBT style bullet that penetrates from any angle and try to break the opposite shoulder after heart-lung penetration, after the JHP round used first through the lungs.

I don't think I would feel too comfortable with a 9mm, but a 38+P Super....maybe.

I have a 38 Super Kimber and Witness that will both toss the 147grain XTP at 1300fps using 8.9 grains of N105. That's .357 Mag territory right there.

Tony

Reviving a 5 year thread interesting.

Some interesting comments! Here in Idaho any centerfire is legal for big game, but there are many calibers that should never, ever be used on big game UNLESS its an emergency (survival). At the end of the day nothing trumps placement & penetration. I used to hunt with 3 guys (brothers) who all used 223's on both deer & elk, it was absolutely awful! They wounded several animals every year & it didn't bother them, it bothered me a lot!

Dick

I've taken deer with the 300 Whisper, 357 Mag, 357 Max, and 44 Mag out of a TC Contender. All resulted in dead deer, and most with one shot. I consider the 300 Whisper and 357 Mag marginal based on blood trail, reaction to the shot, and distance travelled after the shot. The 357 Max and 44 Mag are much more effective deer rounds. I wouldn't use my 40S&W or 45ACP on a deer hunt unless it were a survival situation. I have no experience with a 9mmx19 as I've never owned one.

I have taken whitetail and axis deer with: 9mm, 357mag, 41mag, 44mag 45 Colt, and 45 Schofield. I recently shot a big buffalo bull in Australia with a 44mag.

As we all know, shot placement is king and bullet selection is queen. With that said, IMHO I consider the 9mm too light for deer hunting unless you have an absolute perfect setup and shot. Of the calibers mentioned above, I personally like the 41mag, 44mag, and the 45 Colt the best.

I recently acquired a 454 Casull that will see action during this deer season. I suspect it will be my go-to pistol of choice going forward.

Here in NY State we have gone rfom somwhat reasonable to ridiculous --Any CF cartridge !!
Of course if anyone wanted to make a handgun in 9x57 Mauser it would work well !

Let me see if I've got this right. The 9mm is often recommended as a self defense cartridge for use against a deadly advisory that may weigh 300 or more pounds and could be wearing heavy clothing as well, but it is not adequate to kill a 150 pound deer. Is that about right?

Under the same parameters that I use a 9mm for self defense I wouldn't be afraid to use it on whites tails.

If one can defend their life with a 9mm then they dam sure can take a deer with one. No doubt about that.

If it can kill a human it can kill a deer, now that being said a handgun is a defensive not an offensive weapon, they where designed primarily for that purpose. Smaller and lighter than a rifle easily carried and concealable.
Hunting is an offensive sport, therefore it was not designed although many of the more powerful handguns cross the threshold to be offensive capable.
It is like the old saying, use enough gun

Self defence shooting is rarely done at ranges beyond 21 feet. If you can get that close to a deer then it may be an effective round for killing deer.

A single shot from a 9mm rarely kills the opponent and LEO have fired more than thirty rounds into a bad guy and had him survive to stand trial. If you can keep your groups inside a one inch bull consistently and use a head or neck shot effectively then you can probably kill a deer humanely with a 9mm.

quote:

Originally posted by PaulS:
Self defence shooting is rarely done at ranges beyond 21 feet. If you can get that close to a deer then it may be an effective round for killing deer.

A single shot from a 9mm rarely kills the opponent and LEO have fired more than thirty rounds into a bad guy and had him survive to stand trial. If you can keep your groups inside a one inch bull consistently and use a head or neck shot effectively then you can probably kill a deer humanely with a 9mm.

I wonder how I killed a hog with the 9mm at 45 yards since it isn't affective past 21 feet? Any bullet that penetrates through the vitals can and will kill. The 9 is not as decisive as a 45 in my hunting experience.

Or memember a police shoot out in Vegas where the police fired ove 600 rounds and hit the guy 20 some odd times before he went down multiple shot from 308 snipers rifles. Multiple hits are often required no matter the power level.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Let me see if I've got this right. The 9mm is often recommended as a self defense cartridge for use against a deadly advisory that may weigh 300 or more pounds and could be wearing heavy clothing as well, but it is not adequate to kill a 150 pound deer. Is that about right?

Not everyone recommends the 9 for self defense. There is also a difference in what one would or rather should choose for a round that will either drop a deer with one shot or produce a sufficient blood trail with that one shot vs. a self defense round where you keep shooting at the close range perpetrator.

The simple answer is what you don't have in power you make up with accuracy
If you knew you where to get into a gun fight, would you go?
If you knew you where to get into a gun would you carry a 9mm ?
If you had to lug around a 4 pound hand cannon in hot weather requiring you to wear a coat and heavy belt to support the weight would you?
A gun you are not carrying is worthless, but any gun is better than nothing.

That is why small lightweight firearms where designed, not that they do a better job than a big magnum but they are carry friendly and you have fewer complaints about carrying one, to me a shrouded S&W light weight 5 shot is a CC blessing, not an offensive weapon but a hell of a inside of the pocket lil convince r

quote:

Any bullet that penetrates through the vitals can and will kill

No one questons this. the real question is "How long will it take to die?". Assuming one is hunting for meat, then surely it matters whether the deer will die in 30 yards, 300 yards, or 3000 yards.
The 9mm would not my choice of hunting handgun.
Peter.

To me the question is not just what will kill when everything goes right, but what will produce sufficient internal trauma and blood trail for those times when for whatever reason your shot is slightly off or the animal just doesn't want to die right away.

That is why barring very high velocity rounds such as the 357 max, sub 40 caliber handguns are an iffy choice for hunting deer.

There are many deer killed regularly with the 9mm. Are there any members of the clandestine, yet legendary Cypress Creek Hunting Club here?

I am not saying the 9mm is a good choice but in the right hands, any cartridge is capable of getting the required results. People like WDM Bell are not Gods; they just know what they are doing.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:

quote:

Any bullet that penetrates through the vitals can and will kill

No one questons this. the real question is "How long will it take to die?". Assuming one is hunting for meat, then surely it matters whether the deer will die in 30 yards, 300 yards, or 3000 yards.
The 9mm would not my choice of hunting handgun.
Peter.

Dam sure will not go 3000 yards if you put the bullet through the lungs.
The 9mm is not my first choice cartridge for self defense but a lot of people seem to get the job done with it and if it will work to protect ones life then it will dam sure kill deer effectively if a proper bullet is delivered to the correct location.

quote:

I wonder how I killed a hog with the 9mm at 45 yards since it isn't affective past 21 feet?

LUCK would be the best explanation

quote:

Originally posted by Snyper:

quote:

I wonder how I killed a hog with the 9mm at 45 yards since it isn't affective past 21 feet?

LUCK would be the best explanation

No it was not luck, I simply put the bullet through the lungs. Marksmanship yes, luck no.

I have to agree with jwp. I know it may not be optimal, but putting said bullet into the vitals of an animal will kill it -- period. Personally, I like making bigger holes, however, as someone who hunts with handguns almost exclusively nowadays, I feel that placement is still the most critical aspect of what we do -- paper ballistics be damned.

Okay, enough!

This thread has begun the long slow spiral into stupidity with the "what ifs" and "luck" comments.

JWP can shoot well and has no use for other people trying to impose their limitations on him. I have no use for such people. If the 9mm is not your first choice for deer hunting, fine. It's not mine either. However, just because it is not the belle of the ball doesn't mean it will not work when properly applied. I have tracked too many deer shot with .308, .30-06, and .300 Win Mag rifles that were not used properly. And everyone can agree those meet the "minimum required energy" level to be effective on deer.

quote:

Dam sure will not go 3000 yards if you put the bullet through the lungs. The 9mm is not my first choice cartridge for self defense but a lot of people seem to get the job done with it and if it will work to protect ones life then it will dam sure kill deer effectively if a proper bullet is delivered to the correct location.

My father who shot a lot of deer with a 22lf during the depression to feed his family.

Said many times that no matter if he shot a deer through the lungs with a 22lf or his 300sav.

They run some where up to 100 yards and die the only different is in the blood trail.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Dam sure will not go 3000 yards if you put the bullet through the lungs. The 9mm is not my first choice cartridge for self defense but a lot of people seem to get the job done with it and if it will work to protect ones life then it will dam sure kill deer effectively if a proper bullet is delivered to the correct location.

My father who shot a lot of deer with a 22lf during the depression to feed his family.

Said many times that no matter if he shot a deer through the lungs with a 22lf or his 300sav.

They run some where up to 100 yards and die the only different is in the blood trail.

I completely agree with your father. He learned that through experience, not conjecture.

I have no doubt that I could kill a deer with my 9mm, but I never have, because I have better options available.

I've killed 300 pound hogs with a .22 magnum too. Doesn't mean it would be my first choice in hog hunting calibers though.