I'm getting 2875 fps with 225 gr. Accubonds with 70 grs. of Norma MRP and a 26" barrel - that's 4129 ft# muzzle energy. I'm getting at least 3 reloading from the cases. I submit that this may be the most powerful conversion you can get with the standard length '06 action without having to change the bolt or magazine. I realize that the 35 Whelen would have a bit more power at the muzzle, but given the better bullet selection in .338 (e.g., 225 Accubond with BC=.55) there is more retained down-range energy than that achieveable with the Whelen. Any thoughts. Regards, AIU

quote:

I'm getting at least 3 reloading from the cases. I submit that this may be the most powerful conversion you can get with the standard length '06 action without having to change the bolt or magazine.

I see you got your new barrel we discussed in December 08. There might be several things going on. You have a fast barrel, your rifle and brass handle high pressure, most people wouldnt' use a 26" for a 338-06 and last don't remember seeing posting using MRP in a 338-06AI. All things equal, a 338hawk or 340Howell should give higher velicity. Rocky Gibbs claimed 2845 with a 225 & 26" his case yielded twice the capacity gain as the AI. As I told you in December I hadn't reached your velocity but now I guess I need to run some MRP trough my 340PDK and see what happens.

Paul K, what actual powder charge are you or these other people using? Whether it's a Ackley, Gibbs, Howell, Hawk or whatever version of .338-06 improved, it's how much you're willing to compress the powder and the case type you're using. I'm using Norma cases - which tend to be the most capacious - and filling the case almost to the the absolute top. I think I could squeeze in 71 grs, but no more. Then I compress the MRP substantially.

Heavy compression of the powder has its issues, especially with large caliber cases. With maximum compression maintaining OAL becomes a problem and one can see variable performance in heavily compressed loads - that is, actual diminished and variable powder burning efficiency in my experience. Yet, with 70 grs. of Norma MRP, Ive been able to minimize these problems. Yet, going to Normal 204 or W760 has some appeal. Indeed, I'm looking into both, and preliminary data suggest outstanding performance, especially for W760. I'll keep you informed.

In any event, I'm impressed with the greater muzzle energy and with the 225 gr. Accubond (BC=.55) you're looking at great down-range (long-range) retention of energy and flat tragectory. If one doesn't want to buy a whole new action and gun, fitting a .338-06 AI barrel (26") on your 30-06, 270, 25-06, etc. will make it a poor man's 338 Win Mag. I pick the AI version, because dies are available thru Redding and (I think) RCBS.

Regards, AIU

My first post came across negative and that was not my intent. I'm happy you are getting the velocity that you are. I agree with you once I built my 340PDK I sold my 338Wmag with 225 and smaller bullets I gave up nothing my 24" 340 equaled my own handloads max in a 22" 338Wmag.

Like you I use only Norma cases with my wildcats because of th extra volume and from my early testing I feel they start to show some head expansion in the 65-67,000 range. Hot enough for me.

If you load a 280, 30-06, 338-06 to 65,000 you give up very little to the first level magnums of the same caliber. Remember most magnum barrels are at least 2" longer than the "std" so that needs to be added in as well.

There is nothing wrong with an AI I just feel if I'm going to the trouble to form a case I choose to push it to the limit thus after working up from std to AI to full blown wildcat to me if I'm not std then push the limit. The Howell or Gibbs to me makes more sense than stopping at the AI. The cost difference in the dies is not an issue to me. Matter of fact Howel formed brass and dies are available from AHR. From all my testing everything equal the Howell and Gibbs will beat the AI because of their larger case capacity. Sure not by much but hey once you from STD it is basically free gain. But that gain is still only a 1% velocity for 4% capacity at equal pressure.

As to loads I've set a personal limit at 105% of capacity. Many go higher. I simply choose not to. While I use nothing but MRP and now RL22 in my 280 & 6.5 version I never tried it in the 340 I was using RL15 & RL19. Thanks to your effort now I will.

Paul, I'd love to compare notes - actually I've much more data to share, but I'm still in the load development phase for the .338-O6 AI. Indeed, my W760 trial went extemely well - almost too good to believe. I want to repeat it. Will post all later as requested. In the meantime, if you have any load data to share, please do. If you'd rather not post here, I can be PM'ed. Regards, AIU

As you all know using a bullet with high BC is very important for down range velocity retention thus ensuring good expansion at a distance.

By comparing Federal factory ballistics you can see where some 308 loads actually have higher velocity at 400 and 500 yards than some 300 Win Mag loads.

Of course it is also good to have a bullet that holds together when you shoot up close.

Paul, how many grains of H20 does your 340PDK hold? Regards, AIU

quote:

Paul, how many grains of H20 does your 340PDK hold? Regards, AIU

This is probably more info than you want. This is the write up when they added it to loadtech. They measure most of the numbers. My shoulder out of the sizing die is .46". I load up to 3.38" They set the max to the parent case along with the pressure.

A 340PDK and 280PDK with the parent.

Paul, is it customary to measure H20 capacity in a resized or unresized case. I've been using resized cases. Would you be willing to post some of your data? Finally, where do you send to get dies for the 340PDK? Regards, AIU

I have to say, that is a significant increas in powder cap. I load a my 338-06 w/ H4350 & can only get in 60gr compressed under a 250gr bullet. I would submit though, that if you are getting only three firings, that is a very warm load for sure. It would proably extend your case life quite a bit if you backed down to 2800fps or so. Still a heck of a load in a std. action.

quote:

Paul, is it customary to measure H20 capacity in a resized or unresized case. I've been using resized cases. Would you be willing to post some of your data? Finally, where do you send to get dies for the 340PDK

Sized.

I can pull together some data but I guess it would be for info only. Hornady has the Dimensions for the 340PDK, 380PDK, 400PDK and I believe 280PDK. I had my others done at RCBS years ago. I believe my buddy had his 280 done at Hornady I know I had the first 3 listed.

What doesn't exist for public use is a reamer. I have the only one. I had two, loaned one out and it never made it home. The one I have now is the original 280PDK that I altered to allow me to swap pilots and go bigger. I no longer have an FFL and farm my work to Toomany Tools.

I'm posting a drawing showing the 338-06,AI Gibbs, Howell and PDK Showing the bottom of a 225 fitting into an 06 Magazine. I happen to load the 200s which have the base at the bottom of my neck.

The Howell is a 2.6" case. The gross capacity of it is exactly the same as mine using Norma brass. Norma brass is thinner and gives several grs more net capacity in an 06 magazine. As you can see the neck shoulder junction is basically in the same spot. The Gibbs is just slightly behind.

A Real quick and inexpensive way to get real darn close would be Contact AHR http://www.hunting-rifles.com The last time I talked to them they would rechamber your rifle into a Howell for around $100. They sell headstamp brass for around the cost of a Norma case. Their dies are $86 compared to $165 for Hornady custom. If you want to maximize net capacity then use Norma brass and just have a shorter neck. The throat is set up for a 06 magazine anyway.

Second option Elk Ridge rents a 338 Gibbs reamer. Use Norma brass and load away. If you want a longer neck I would loan out my neck reamer or you can probably rent one. Midway lists RCBS 340 Gibbs 35deg dies sepecial order for $142. Might as well have customs made to your chamber at Hornady. If you have a 338 already just get the sizer and use your old seater.

Last if anyone wants to have a reamer made feel free. I would be happy to help anyway I can. If you do have it removable pilot. The 380&400 are real fun as well.

Paul, I did a QL analysis of a 338-06 AI (74.5 grs H20 unresized case) vs .340 PDK (80 grs. H20), and keeping everything equal (including williness to go to 120% capacity with heavy compression), the PDK gets ~60 fps more with a 225 Accubond. BUT, you stated you were only willing to go to 105% case capacity, in which case the Ackley verson, using heavily compressed MRP, outperforms the PDK by about 15-20 fps. The longer AI neck should allow more compression, while maintaing OAL and concentricity somewhat better. The latter may prove important in accuracy. It boils down to a comparison of the advantages of a longer neck vs. slightly more case capacity (~8%). Your thoughts? Regards, AIU

Getting in this one late but my go-to load for my 338-06 AI is 64 gr of Rel-19 under a 200 gr Ballistic Tip. It averages 2880 from my Sauer 200's 25.5 inch barrel at pretty mild pressure. I never had a need to go to 225 grains; the BT punched through some pretty heavy animals up to 400 lbs.

quote:

The longer AI neck should allow more compression, while maintaing OAL and concentricity somewhat better. The latter may prove important in accuracy. It boils down to a comparison of the advantages of a longer neck vs. slightly more case capacity (~8%

Wow a 2% velocity increase for an 8% capacity increase. Hmmm I think I remember saying a 1 for 4 before. I don't understand the longer neck giving more compression. I simply choose to stop at 105%. I'll pull some data in the morning. As to the .28" neck with a 338 bullet I have never had an accuracy issue.

As I've said anytime the issue of a larger case either AI or my full wildcat comes up. All things equal a rule of thumb is 1 for 4. The person building the rifle needs to decide what they want to pay for that small increase. Cheapest and easist way to get magnum velocity is still use a magnum case. Even then the gains are small.

OK During morning I pulled out some of my 340PDK load data. These are from a 24" Douglas barrel. These load are all below any head expansion measure over my Chrony. They are only one data point for only one rifle.THESE LOADS ARE FOR IMFORMATION ONLY AND ARE FOR MY 340PDK

180BT
IMR 4895 61.5 @3058
RL15 64@3128

200BT
IMR 4895 60@3017
IMR 4064 63@2995
RL15 63.5@3050

210PT
IMR 4895 59@2850
IMR 4064 62@2845
RL15 62.5@3005

225
IMR 4064 60@2800
RL15 61@2850

Using Loadtech a 225 and MRP if gives me the following. (I HAVE NOT TRIED THIS LOAD)
71.5 @ 2820 is 100% load capacity
77 @ 2929 is 108% load capcity and 65,000.

Paul, from what you report, I don't think you're compressing like I do. In my experience when one heavily compresses powder (120% of case capacity), there's a tendency for the bullet to push back out over time, thus maintenance of a consistent OAL is a bit more difficult. Also, I've noted that uniform concentricity is more difficult to obtain - that is, the bullet can tilt a little during compression and it's hard to predict and, thus, control. A longer neck grips the bullet better to prevent extrusion and tends to hold concentricity better.

For hunting at usual ranges (up to 300 yds), this is not a major issue - but then, why are we squeezing-out every last bit of velocity, if we don't plan on shooting at very long distances. I shot my last deer at 515 yds. I need accuracy at those distances, I hunt Coues deer every year.

Finally, have you tried W760? My preliminary data suggests it may be better for this cartridge than MRP. Also, W760 is a high-density, high-energy, double-base powder that doesn't need compression - in fact it's so dense it doesn't compress well at all.

Regards, AIU

quote:

In my experience when one heavily compresses powder (120% of case capacity),

Like I said I normally stop at 105%. But that is subjective. Hard to determine exactly what 100% is for every given bullet.

I really plan on trying to kill a deer at 500+ yds then I'll look to my 7STW not my 340. I've shot my 280PDK and 340PDK for groups out to 500. So if push comes to shove then I know where they will hit and their drop. I've had no trouble with accuracy caused by a .28" neck. Heck look at the neck of a 300wmag.

I play with my various PDK cases simply because I can, it is fun to see what I can do with an 06 based case and I like to be different. Years ago I used heavy compressed loads, loads hot enough to allow only 2-3 loadings. I just decided it wasn't worth it. I now find a load that is fast, accurate, and safe at 115 deg as well as 0 deg. Even though I shoot a majority of my own wildcats the easiest way to get magnum velocity is shoot a magnum.

Nope I have never tried 760. Not sure I have tried any Wincheater labeled powder.

External Ballistics:

.338-06 AI; 70 grs. MRP, 26" barrel; 225 gr. Accubond (BC=.55); 2875 fps at muzzle; 7000 ft. elevation.

Max Point blank range is 293 yds when zeroed at 248 yds.

Distance yds/trajectory inches/velocity fps/foot lbs energy

Muzzle/0.0/2875/4129
100/1.6/2736/3740
200/0.0/2602/3381
300/-6.7/2471/3051
400/-19.1/2345/2748
500/-37.9/2224/2470
600/-63.6/2105/2214

I think I've made my point. If you want to turn that standard (unaltered) '06 action into a "magnum" get a new barrel (26") chambered with .338-06 AI (or the like) and reload. With a laser range finder this combo will provide over 2000 foot lbs. energy at 600 yds. - more than enough to kill just about anything with a well-placed shot. I believe I could get this done cheaper than buying a whole new gun of equivalent quality.

AIU
I spent years saying and proving over and over that yes you can take an 06 case(280 in my case) turn it into a wildcat and have it allow you to match the next level magnum. Equal barrels our handloads can equal factory magnums with a couple inch barrel advantage we can match our own magnum handloads. I added more volume you compress your loads more. I do it just because I can and want to be different. Is taking an 06 action putting a new barrel, custom reamer, fireforming, custom dies even as basic as the AI working up loads into areas previously unknown really cheaper than simply a minor bolt alteration and 338mag barrel???? I think that is splitting hairs.

Is it a he!! of a lot of fun going into the unknown and getting the answer a different way?? DARN RIGHT IT IS!!!!!

Would a 338Wmag with a 24" barrel and handloads match your results yes. Would it be near as much fun for people like you and me. NOPE.

We will simply continue to do it our way.

Thanks for the hint on MRP as soon as I get through with load tyesting on my new 380PDK I'll take a look at it in my 340.

Pau,

Went shootin' today, and clearly I'm getting the best all around performance from N204 and W760. MRP works, but not as consistently accurate as the other two. With the two "faster" burning powders I'm getting ~2900 fps with 225 Accubonds with 1.0 MOA accuracy at 100yds (5 shot groups). AND, good case life - I'm shocked by this. Totally unexpected. N204 and W760 are both much easier to work with than MRP, because compression is hardly needed. Right now, my huntin' load is 62 grs. of N204 with ~2900 fps with a 225 gr. Accubond from a 26" barrel. You should seriously consider trying these two powders. This is awesome performance from a 30-06 parent case!!!! I'm using a PACT chrono, but wil repeat the experiment with an Oehler.

Regards, AIU

quote:

Right now, my huntin' load is 62 grs. of N204 with ~2900 fps with a 225 gr. Accubond

204 would be real close to RL19 that I had thought about trying. Or in the 4350 range between Rl15&19. That range powder had always made sense to me in the 340. I have been using 200Accubonds and have not done much testing with the 225Accub. That 1.45" bullet just eats a lot of capacity.

Just ran loadtech using the 225gr Accub. Seated to fit in a 06 magazine the program shows 62 grs being about 105% capacity but only a velocity of 2510. While I have only a so/so faith in this program it has matched my 340 very well. Still can't but feel that you have a fast barrel. So go forward and use it wisely.

Have a good one.

Paul,

QL estimates 2820 with 62.5 grs. of W760 and 2785 with 63.5 grs. of N204.

I'm using a new Bartlein barrel.

Regards, AIU

quote:

QL estimates 2820 with 62.5 grs. of W760 and 2785 with 63.5 grs. of N204

Well that is why after receiving Loadtech free for allowing them to include some on my wildcats I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. I have some results that are right on. Others are out in space. Since it seems to work sometimes my GUESS is they have incorrect burn/pressure data in the software.

I can confirm 2850 fps with 225 gr. Accubonds using a Oehler 35 chronograph, .338-06 AI, 62.5 grs. of N204, and a 26" barrel. Also, MOA accuracy and at least 3 reloadings per case and no overt evidence of excessive pressure signs. That's over 4000 ft# of energy from a standard 30.06 action - that's .338 WinMag performance.

Thus, if one would like to add power to your 3006 without buying a whole new gun, on can do it by adding an after market barrel and changing it out with your 30-06, 280, 270, 2506,etc. as needed. I recommend a sporter contour Bartlein barrel, 26", finished 0.8" at the muzzle.

A quick question to all. The velocity you guys are talking about with a 225 gr bullet sounds absolutley ridiculous to me. A 130 gr bullet in a 270 with similar powders and charges will just get to 3100 or so IME. How in the hell is a bullet that is 95 gr. heavier able to be just 250 fps slower?? It sounds unbelievable to me?

The highest powder charge of 760 I could get Quickload to say is OK, was at 57 gr. (in full grain increments--meaning 58 was a no-no)
and an estimate with 26" barrel was 2685 fps.

Is this just the 'every rifle is an individual thing?'

Just trying to keep learning--Don

Fish, there are many variables with QL and those variables, depending how you set them, will determine estimated maximum velocity. I set max psi at 65,000, which is fairly close to SAAMI max for the 270. Given the guns I shoot - custom bolt action rifles, 65,000 is fine for the .338.O6 AI. Lasseroni allows up to 69,000 psi. OAL is set at 3.34 inches and barrel length is 26". My case H2O volume is 74.5 grains, and I allow for 120% case capacity fill - I compress. Let the program sort through all the powder choices and maximum velocity at 65,000 psi comes up at ~2900 fps with ~69 grs MRP.

Finally, don't forget that the force on the bullet is pressure times area - the area of the base of a .338 is considerably more than that of the .270. This means that .338.06 is considerably more efficient than the .270. This is the whole idea behind the .338.06 and 35 Whelen. Trust me, the figures are true.

Regards, AIU

Thanks AIU, I was aware of the surface area benefit, it just seemed a big jump of 95 grains and keeping velocity about at par. I still would like to see it through a chronograph....
may have to build one!!

I shoot a lot of custom rigs as well, but always stay under max with powder charges, and shy away from compressed loads even if within max charges, as determined by several manuals, and QL sometimes, with all the variables I can determine input......

Fish, another bit of evidence of the veracity of my claims can be found in the Hornady reloading manual. They list the 338-06 with 225 gr. bullets, 62 grs. of W760, and a 23.5 inch barrel as producing 2700 fps. I assume they're working at ~60,000 psi (SAAMI max for the 'o6).

I'm using the 338-06 AI (~5% increase in case capacity resulting in ~50 fps more), a 26 inch barrel (resulting in ~60 fps more), a slower burning powder (N204, although w760 works very well and thus likely no appreciable difference), and pushing to ~65,000 psi (causing ~60 fps more). This totals ~170 fps, which if referenced against the Hornady manual, roughly predicts or is c/w the 2850 fps that I'm getting with 225 gr. Accubonds with my set up.

Again, if one has one first-rate standard '06 action, using two barrels - one 280 AI and one 338-06 AI - will cover all North American game and all but the most dangerous African game.

Regards, AIU

Bringing the thread back to life.

What about a 375 PDK with high BC for caliber bullets? With a brake it would pump up the energy with little recoil.

I like this posting. I am in the process of just completing my fireforming of 338-06 Norma brass in my 338-06AI shooting 225gr Accubonds. I used 58.5gr of H414 to do the f.f. and break in my new barrel. Now to get new loads developed to see what shoots the best for powder. I may try H414 again along with H380, RL15, 4064 and 4350 if I have it.

I should mention my rifle was a new Sako m75 Greywolf 25-06 (needed a IV action size in a Sako) with a new PacNor #5 Match grade stainless barrel cut to 24" and fluted.

Tyler Kemp, Agreed the .375-06 (PDK or the like) should produce great muzzle energy. The 260 gr. .375 Accubond boasts a BC=.47, which is quite good, but the 225 .338 Accubond has a reported BC=.55, which is awesome. I need to do a QL analysis, but I bet the .338-06 AI has caught and surpass the .375-06 beyond 300 yds, because of that 0.55 BC.

Might Peace, H414 (aka WW760) was awesome in my reloading 225 Accubonds. I was using ~63 grs and getting close to 2900 fps with a 26" barrel. However, my gun was more accurate with N204, which I suggest you try. Also, you might want to try Re19 and WW780.

Warm regards, AIU

Just to be picky it is a 380PDK. While I feel 27-2750 is doable with a 260 and a 24" barrel it can't make up the 150-200 if you can get 2875-2900. A 26" might help but to me that defeats my purpose. Out to 300 the 260 is within 10yds point blank range but beats the 225 in energy. At 500 with Max PBR zero the 260 is about 10" lower energy is real close.

In the next few weeks I'll be pushing some 260s to my limits anyway I'll let you guys know.

I have a few pounds of the new Winchester Supreme 780 powder so I may try that before I buy some RL15. I believe I have some n560 too but wil have to look again.

The H414 was good from what I seen for fireforming brass so I may try it again starting @ 59.0 and go up to 63 as you suggest.

Now I need to get a chrony.

Paul, what is the case capacity for your 380 PDK?

The most improved .338 based on a 06 case is the 8,5x63

Looks like your load beats even the Gibbs. But if your cases only stand three loadings, then you are up there pressure-wise!

quote:

Originally posted by BlaserGun:
The most improved .338 based on a 06 case is the 8,5x63

How about some numbers on the performance of that round??

quote:

How about some numbers on the performance of that round??

i don't have the calibre my self but I can give you some details from Qload

Oh sorry, I was wrong here, seems that AI - Howel & PDK has more volume

quote:

Paul, what is the case capacity for your 380 PDK?

The honest answer is I'm not sure yet. I built three rifles at the same time. A 400PDK and 2 380PDKs. One of the 380s was for my buddy. He has started testing and given me some feedback. I have done nothing with my 380 yet since I've been playing with the 400. He happens to prefer the 2.6" Howell brass so we cut his neck to that length. I do know that 280Rem Norma brass with a shorter neck gives me the same gross capacity as the 2.6" howell in our 340s and since the OAL is magazine limited I get a higher net. He gave me a formed 380PDK made from 380Howell and I had him make me one using 06 cylinder brass shortened to 2.6". The Howell measured 81 grs of water the cylinder brass 82grs. I have some necked up 280 brass I was going to form in my rifle this week to compare. Also thought I would try some 35Whelen(Norma).

Will let you know the cpacities of them as well.