Can I use load data (max charge weight) for brand X 140gr bullet from brand Y manufacturer if it same bullet weight and same powder?

Michael,

My experience is Yes and No, if you start low and work up, Yes (use caution and common sense)….with that said, I did find that pressure signs showed up much sooner on solid copper bullets than their lead/copper cousins of the same weight, so again use caution when developing your load.

Have a Win. Model 70 in .270Win. that you would not want to shoot the Barns bullets at the max listed in several of the major bullet makers manuals. Primers are way to flat at their listed!

Best of luck
Carl

My experience is same as above.
They are the same, except for solid copper bullets.

NO. look at the load data. They will reach max pressure at a different weight of powder a nosler will have a max about 55 grs. a sierra at around 57.5. a hornady around 56grs.
I WOULD REDUCE ANY LOAD AND WORK UP.
THE BULLET CONSTRUCTION ARE ALL DIFFRENT.

The bearing surface and precise diameter of the bullet vary among styles and brands. Some bullets have grooves in the bearing surface. All those things affect pressure.

So while you can probably use starting data for say all 140 grain, .277 caliber bullets, the optimal loads and max loads can very greatly. Like was mentioned, we should always start low and work up.

A Berger 150 will have a different pressure than a 150 flat base

The pressure will vary with the amount of baring surface of the bullet to barrel, material of baring surface and hardness of that material. These are "some" of the big effectors.

thanks guys

Pressure varies from bullet to bullet, but you should be fine if you start under max and work back up with each different bullet you try in the same weight.

The general thought is: the softer the bullet, the less pressure, everything else being equal. Even this can be deceiving as some bullets have relief grooves, some thicker jacket, some thinner jackets, some have longer bearing surfaces on the barrel, some take up more space in the case.

To me, the answer is yes. Different makes might have different pressures, but I have found, not much difference. They definitely have different POIs though.
Except for solid copper ones, which I can't afford anyway.

If I am shooting a C&C bullet at 80-90% of max and I am not reading any pressure signs, I would certainly use that as a starting point for another C&C bullet. Note the word "starting point". I seldom will have the same sweet spot for accuracy between different bullets.

There was a time when most bullets were pretty much made the same and a 140 gn bullet was just a 140 gn bullet. Now not so much. A lead core slug will "compress" much easier then a solid copper slug and there are also variations in jacket thickness, core hardness and other designs like a partition that can contribute to pressure.

For like bullets, there typically wont be much difference. But variations in construction have to be taken into consideration.

quote:

Originally posted by hivelosity:
NO. look at the load data. They will reach max pressure at a different weight of powder a nosler will have a max about 55 grs. a sierra at around 57.5. a hornady around 56grs.
I WOULD REDUCE ANY LOAD AND WORK UP.
THE BULLET CONSTRUCTION ARE ALL DIFFRENT.

Very much agree and one reason I use Sierra bullets exclusively for my rifles is because they are far more 'forgiving' pressure wise when working up loads and seem to give top velocity and accuracy without the sudden pressure signs I've experienced when using other brands of bullets. Noslers in particular in some cartridges I've loaded showed pressure much sooner, coming on quick when working towards top loads.

Everyone speaks to this "apparent" or perceived difference in barrel friction differences between different makes and types of bullets and it's effect on pressure !

Intuitively I would agree however what evidence to this can anyone produce to prove that the pressure is indeed affected ? other than intuition?

Some claim "look at load manuals". Well that is hardly a measure of the "truth" because load manual data is more than often empirically derived.

There are many studies and theory on barrel friction and projectile design when it comes to cannons, but only one study that I know of that deals with a small bore ( 5.56mm) bullet friction.

The problems to actually test in a scientific manner the push forces and ultimately pressure generated by different bullets in a small bore barrel are difficult if not practically possible to overcome.

The reason is two fold.

The push rod used to push the bullet down the bore is a difficult structure to account for in physical calculations.

In itself the behaviour of the rod as it becomes longer becomes an issue. ( think of a thin cleaning rod made of say tungsten steel , the longer it gets the more "bendy" it gets)

Because of this, only data derived from the first 10 or so cm of barrel travel can be accounted for. So in reality the push forces for the first 4 inches of barrel travel can be deduced by experiment, beyond that it becomes a crap shoot.

The second problem is that friction is not uniform all the way down the barrel.

Assuming our barrel wear is uniform though out the total length of travel ( which it is not) we still need to account for the fact that projectile friction is not. Bullet upset and the radial tension of the bullet on the barrel is not uniform throughout.

The proof of the pudding lies in the eating and it would appear for the 5.56mm fired from spec NATO barrels at least that actual peak pressure is not significantly affected by choosing different bullets , not enough to warrant making allowances in loading practice.

This came as a surprise to the authors of this study because though they could show that different push forces were necessary to push the various bullets down the first 4 inches of bore the actual effect on peak and mean effective barrel pressure was not that significant.

Some make things way to difficult. For decades I cross reference loading manuals for what ever bullet weight I was using,

I found that there is normally a range where a lot of the loading data is nearly the same.

Then I start low and work up. When I reach what I consider the best load. I load them up and go shooting.

Worry about the other stuff can take up a lot of ones hunting and shooting time.

quote:

Originally posted by gohip2000:
Pressure varies from bullet to bullet, but you should be fine if you start under max and work back up with each different bullet you try in the same weight.

The general thought is: the softer the bullet, the less pressure, everything else being equal. Even this can be deceiving as some bullets have relief grooves, some thicker jacket, some thinner jackets, some have longer bearing surfaces on the barrel, some take up more space in the case.

I think you have this backwards, a softer bullet will obturate easier and be forced harder into the bore raising pressure but increasing velocity, a harder jacket will resist the pressure and lower velocity as it travels easier down the bore, just as a moly coated bullet does.
I have used load data from several manuals without using the exact components they list, not once have I ran into problems doing this, and I always start 5% below max listed charges. I must say that yes, different bullets produce vastly different pressure with the SAME loads, but working up below should keep you safe.

Cheers.

quote:

Originally posted by 416RigbyHunter:

I have used load data from several manuals without using the exact components they list, not once have I ran into problems doing this, and I always start 5% below max listed charges. I must say that yes, different bullets produce vastly different pressure with the SAME loads, but working up below should keep you safe.

Cheers.

All very true but the OP was "Can I use load data (max charge weight) for brand X 140gr bullet from brand Y manufacturer if it same bullet weight and same powder?"

The short and only answer is most definitely not. There are plenty of us around who have experienced pressure issues when substituting different brands of bullets even though of the same weight, and not necessarily just when using the same maximum or near maximum charges of same powder. Even when working up, different bullets will exhibit pressure signs much earlier in the loading ladder than expected.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by 416RigbyHunter:

I have used load data from several manuals without using the exact components they list, not once have I ran into problems doing this, and I always start 5% below max listed charges. I must say that yes, different bullets produce vastly different pressure with the SAME loads, but working up below should keep you safe.

Cheers.

All very true but the OP was "Can I use load data (max charge weight) for brand X 140gr bullet from brand Y manufacturer if it same bullet weight and same powder?"

The short and only answer is most definitely not. There are plenty of us around who have experienced pressure issues when substituting different brands of bullets even though of the same weight, and not necessarily just when using the same maximum or near maximum charges of same powder. Even when working up, different bullets will exhibit pressure signs much earlier in the loading ladder than expected.

Your definition is inaccurate, as I said, if you work up, who knows, max with bullet x, may be less/more than bullet y. You don't know that " The answer is definately not.", and neither does anyone else, until it is tested in the OP's rifle.

Interesting question. I like and actually understand ALF's answer. So, the answer is "maybe". Some have said, "look at the various books and see the difference". Well, was the difference attributed to the bullets, or (more likely) the barrels used? If you say it must be the bullet, then why would Hornady use the same loading data for say ALL of their 165 grain 308 bullets, regardless of whether the construction is C&C or monometal GMX? All of the bullet manufacturers do this, as I recall. Nosler does as well, whether it is Partition or Ballistic Tip, or E-Tip. It is the powder manufacturers that show results based on specific bullets being used, not the bullet manufacturers.

Bottom line, for me, is start at a reasonable level and work up. Personally I have had many more issues changing brass manufacturers than bullet manufacturers. Try the same loads in 308 Winchester brand brass and Hornady Match brass and note the half, or more, grain difference to get the same results. The Hornady has less interior space, so less powder is required.

I only have found one exception to that which I can not explain, so I just go with it. From the same barrel, lot of brass and powder, my 150 Partitions from a 308 will shoot 5" higher at 100 than any of the other 150 grain bullets I have tried. I just acknowledge it and move on. The rest just shoot pretty well together.

What are "pressure issues" and how did you measure them?
I have found that if you substitute say a 140gr Hornady c&c bullet for a Speer 140gr c&c bullet, the difference in velocity, if any, is not dramatic nor (most often) is the accuracy far enough different that a slight tweek or two will corrent it.
I find some of the "chicken little" comments rather bizarre.

I can't find the source (sorry).
However as I recall someone was testing similar questions.
Tested two bullets.
Same caliber.
By the same maker.
Same weight!
But two different designs.
The pressures were said to be near max for one and approximating proof load for the other. Several thousand psi difference.
Obviously an extreme example but bottom line, always begin at starting load levels whenever you change components.

muck

Years ago and written up in the NRA Handloading Manual by Davis, 30/06 loads were pressure tested. With a wide range of 150 grain bullets, pressure varied by a lot-a whole lot.
So the answer to your question is probably that at the lower end of the pressure/velocity loading range, you should be okay. At the high end, you will be flirting with MAX+ levels with some bullets.

Wait a minute, we take say a speer fb c&c bullet and a speer bt c&c bullet and shoot each of them in the same rifle, with the same load and components and there would be SEVERAL THOUSANDS PSI DIFFERENCE? Unless you can come up with a source, a viable source, I'm gonna throw the bullshit flag on that one.

Source: HANDLOADING by NRA by William C. Davis, Jr 1981.
Article: Effects of Component Switching on Ballistics of the .30-06, pgs 133-137.
Table on page 136: 10 150 grain bullets tested for pressure.
Highest pressure: Speer Round-Nose Soft-Point 51900 p.s.I.
Lowest pressure: U.S. M2 Full-Metal-Jacket
44510 p.s.I.
The other 8 bullets fairly evenly spread between these two. The next highest, a Winchester Silvertip, was at 50740 p.s.I. and the next to lowest, a Barnes Soft-point, was at 45430 p.s.I.
The total difference between the highest and lowest was 7390 p.s.I. The total difference between the second highest and the second lowest was 5310 p.s.i.
There is other good info in the article which shows the effects of changing cases, primers, etc. They all are strong indications that pressure IS AFFECTED when components are substituted.
It seems to me that

By the way, even though the HANDLOADING Manual I referenced above is 35 years old, I still consider it one of the best reloading books I have come across in 52+ years of reloading. If you come across it, buy it.

I have had that book and have passed it on as newer and better information came available. While 52 years is a rather long time, when you've been reloading as long as I have perhaps you'll learn that a little common sense will often trump the chicken littles.

The original question, which has been scientifically answered thousands of times, was not designed to sink into a "who can pee the farthest" contest.
That being said, we'll just let your contention that your God given ability can somehow transcend science and physics stand on its own merit.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Wait a minute, we take say a speer fb c&c bullet and a speer bt c&c bullet and shoot each of them in the same rifle, with the same load and components and there would be SEVERAL THOUSANDS PSI DIFFERENCE? Unless you can come up with a source, a viable source, I'm gonna throw the bullshit flag on that one.

I have searched and believe my reference material was lost in the last "great computer crash".
With this in mind you are correct to take what I wrote with a "grain of salt".
That said I was very taken aback when I read the report. This is why it has stuck in the cobwebs of my mind.

muck

When it comes to the act of measuring anything in ballistics even the most mundane such as taking a caliper to a case or simply reading velocity off a chronograph we have to be aware of the fact that we are dealing with a system that has the concept of randomness built into its very fabric.

Everything that requires measuring has to be interpreted to the rules of the common statistical method !

Larry Sturdivan former head of the chemical division of the Aberdeen Proving ground devoted a whole book on this Titled " The Universe is stochastic and non linear"

John Corner who wrote arguably one of the best known texts on the theory of internal ballistics of guns devotes an entire preamble to this concept of randomness in ballistics.

When we see a big numbers like a thousand foot pounds this way or that way it seems like a big deal to us but in the big picture as long as we are not riding the edge don't seem to be out of place.

Ken Waters made up a list by calibers of all the velocity data he collected over the years and a common theme became apparent. The smaller the bore the larger the spread of data , this is not surprising when we consider that large canon may have spreads with as little a 30fps either side of the mean. whilst in 22 cal centre fire rifles we can see data spreads with a 200 fps variance windows

The science of internal ballistics is not so much concerned with individual numbers but rather with trends in variability and behaviour of the mean of measured results in a sample.
Because of this tendency to randomness at very level whether it be the behaviour of a propellant in a closed bomb or the intershot variance in measured velocity from a single gun, same load.

Something we also need to understand is that new rifles or guns built to the same spec window tend to exhibit the largest variance in data but as we shoot those guns and barrels starts wearing the tendency of data spread moves closer to the mean and there is over a time a tendency for all the barrels to give the same data. So if one gun had a fast barrel and the other a slow barrel for the same caliber over time both would start giving data with a small spread , they would meet inbetween very close to the mean.