I've been reloading over 40 years. I've had two Single stage presses that I recall. I had an RCBS I bought in the 70's and about 15 yrs back bought a Lee Cast press because I needed to load 416 Rigby and 458 Lott and the big lee cast prett has lots of room.

I was banging around on Youtube and watched a video by the Ultimate reloading guy, pretty interesting. The guy tested a bunch of presses. I didnt read the full report, I'm sure its out there somewhere. On the Youtube video he talked about presses and how some loaded more accurate rounds than others. The part I couldnt tell, was how much. My guess its not all that much delta between any of them, but thats my guess.

I wonder how much effect on accuracy a press really has. I would not think it would be very much. I would think all the other componets would have more effect/more importnat variable.

Did anybody see the full report, I know the guy took down a lot of data. My guess most of this accuracy effect would apply to the long range and bench rest guys and not much would apply on us guys that load to mainly hunt and go to the range when we can.

Comments please.

Thanks, Billy

I have 3 presses I don't think I have seen any differences

I’d bet the same. There so much slop between the shel holder and case that all the slop in the press Makes any difference.

I think the thing we all strive for with handloading is consistency in ammunition produced. Provided the actual press is made to acceptable tolerances, including rigidity, I would anticipate only minor differences, if any, from one brand to another. I have never actually tested this however.
I believe the dies used would have a bigger influence overall and I think I have proven this to my satisfaction. Not that I have any issue with any well known brands but I now use exclusively Redding dies ( in a Redding press ) and over a period of time working up loads for several calibres found the Redding combination allowed me to develop my most accurate ammo.

or merely the straightest because the line boring is better.

I would say the inaccuracy caused by wind drift is greater than the inaccuracy between the "best" and "worst" reloading press.

If I recall, he also did a video and I believe one of the most accurate presses based runout measurements was the Forster Co-Axial press. I too have a Lee Classic Cast press and am happy with the quality of ammo it produces. Besides, I just not a good enough marksman to notice the difference that minor runout might cause at the distances I shoot.

All nonsense! Picture how a die and press work: the ram pushes the case up into a die that is held ideally, perfectly in alignment with the ram. BUT, look at your shell holder to ram interface. Is it held tightly or floating? The shell holder is sitting on the ram; what will happen if it is not perfectly at right angles to the die axis? Is the brass going to bend? Or will it follow the die internal axis?
I think that the internal die condition is more important. Look at bench resters loading ammo on the range. They don't even use a conventional press; they use arbor presses.

dpcd, as I said above, my press of choice is a Lee Classic Cast single stage press. I'm just a hunter and shooter who enjoys reloading. The video from Ultimate Reloader was interesting but I'm not an engineer (just an old retired banker), so I can't comment on your thoughts or his findings. You may want to take this up with Gavin Gear, the owner of Ultimate Reloader who, I believe is a mechanical engineer.

Years ago I participated in a very unscientific test with a group of like minded team members. We used multiple platforms and cartridges(mostly military cartridges) and used as many different type dies, presses and components as we could lay our hands on. We geeked hard on being consistent and used custom dies made for the rifle to lee handloaders and everything in between. Dillon presses were used for progressive/speedloading. We weighed/trimmed/turned/measured everthing on one extreme and just threw everyting in the Dillon and went at it on the other end. We had a blast doing it and the results were surprising in many areas. I won’t go into all the details but we loaded and fired a lot of ammo and collected a ton of data. Here is a summary of some key findings:
- Consistency is most important, no matter what tools and components you are using.
- Unless you are shooting in matches (or have OCD), most extreme measures in search of accuracy are a waste of time. This was particularly obvious with non-precision built rifles, such as off the shelf or armory rack rifles. Even with the match grade rifles, extreme measures had limited improvement. When you considered what the rifle was being used for, the limited improvement wasn’t really needed.
- Lee Handloaders can load about as good as anything if you are consistent in your processes.
- Most components are capable of loading ammunition that meets or exceeds the capability of the weapon system and the shooter.
- Using the same brand of cases, finding the OAL sweet spot for the rifle and trimming cases were the biggest contributors to improved and consistent accuracy.

That is my experience. Yours may be different.

Safe shooting.



Larry

Actually, there is a difference.

Trouble is, there are not many rifles, and shooters, who can make a difference to it.

I have a 6 PPC heavy bench rifle.

Built by Dwight Scott, who is a well known gunsmith, who has built rifles for many champions.

It is the only rifle I have, I think, which can actually shoot better than I can ever do.

I have shot groups with it that are immeasurable.

It came with a set of dies cut by the same chambering reamer.

It is a Wilson type die set.

One for depriming and sizing, and the other is a seater.

I loaded several rounds, on an RCBS press and on the Wilson die that came with it.

Same loads.

The Wilson loaded ammo shot much better, every time.

The differences were quite large, and I can only attribute them to the press.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Actually, there is a difference.

Trouble is, there are not many rifles, and shooters, who can make a difference to it.

I have a 6 PPC heavy bench rifle.

Built by Dwight Scott, who is a well known gunsmith, who has built rifles for many champions.

It is the only rifle I have, I think, which can actually shoot better than I can ever do.

I have shot groups with it that are immeasurable.

It came with a set of dies cut by the same chambering reamer.

It is a Wilson type die set.

One for depriming and sizing, and the other is a seater.

I loaded several rounds, on an RCBS press and on the Wilson die that came with it.

Same loads.

The Wilson loaded ammo shot much better, every time.

The differences were quite large, and I can only attribute them to the press.

Saeed, I was hoping you would share some knowledge. Do you recall how big the diffreence was? Would it have actually mattered on anything except paper?

When we presented our findings and conclusions to several bench rest and NRA match champions, they were all quick to point out the better accuracy when we applied the excessive measures and used chamber cut dies and Sinclair tools for loading. Our counter point was MOA is good enough for our purpose. Although a known point of reference for accuracy is necessary, real world variables level the playing field when field conditions are applied. Estimating distance and reading wind become added factors affecting the perfect load. Even our own teams were split between perfection and the reality of task-conditions-standards requirements for the weapon system. On field fire ranges, our OCD teams did no better than our “moa is good enough” teams.

I was in the camp that decided once a consistent load is identified, even if it is factory ammo, spend more time shooting in realistic conditions and less time reaming primer pockets and turning/annealing brass. A realistic needs assessment should drive logistics and training.

Safe shooting!

quote:

Originally posted by SFRanger7GP:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Actually, there is a difference.

Trouble is, there are not many rifles, and shooters, who can make a difference to it.

I have a 6 PPC heavy bench rifle.

Built by Dwight Scott, who is a well known gunsmith, who has built rifles for many champions.

It is the only rifle I have, I think, which can actually shoot better than I can ever do.

I have shot groups with it that are immeasurable.

It came with a set of dies cut by the same chambering reamer.

It is a Wilson type die set.

One for depriming and sizing, and the other is a seater.

I loaded several rounds, on an RCBS press and on the Wilson die that came with it.

Same loads.

The Wilson loaded ammo shot much better, every time.

The differences were quite large, and I can only attribute them to the press.

Saeed, I was hoping you would share some knowledge. Do you recall how big the diffreence was? Would it have actually mattered on anything except paper?

When we presented our findings and conclusions to several bench rest and NRA match champions, they were all quick to point out the better accuracy when we applied the excessive measures and used chamber cut dies and Sinclair tools for loading. Our counter point was MOA is good enough for our purpose. Although a known point of reference for accuracy is necessary, real world variables level the playing field when field conditions are applied. Estimating distance and reading wind become added factors affecting the perfect load. Even our own teams were split between perfection and the reality of task-conditions-standards requirements for the weapon system. On field fire ranges, our OCD teams did no better than our “moa is good enough” teams.

I was in the camp that decided once a consistent load is identified, even if it is factory ammo, spend more time shooting in realistic conditions and less time reaming primer pockets and turning/annealing brass. A realistic needs assessment should drive logistics and training.

Safe shooting!

It all depends on what you are really after.

The differences were quite big.

From having several groups shooting something like 0.02-0.06" - It is hard to believe, and frankly, I am not really sure of the true measurements.

I tried as much as I could, even using magnifying glasses, and these are the results.

On the press, we never got a single group less than 0.1.

At least for me, it was a convincing experiment.

If we are talking about normal shooting, with other rifles, I am sure the difference would be non existence.

quote:

It all depends on what you are really after.

The differences were quite big.

From having several groups shooting something like 0.02-0.06" - It is hard to believe, and frankly, I am not really sure of the true measurements.

I tried as much as I could, even using magnifying glasses, and these are the results.

On the press, we never got a single group less than 0.1.

At least for me, it was a convincing experiment.

If we are talking about normal shooting, with other rifles, I am sure the difference would be non existence.

Let me offer something that shooters do not measure, and also basically ignore: bullet concentricity and center of gravity. If the center of gravity is off the axis of rotation, the bullet will wobble. If the balance is off, the bullet will wobble. We all assume that all bullets are perfect and the same. This is not true. Bullets vary, and it is surprising how much they do vary. I have gone through boxes of 500 SMK's and every so often, I find a light, or a heavy bullet. Like a 150 grain bullet in a box of 190's.

Until such time as we can ensure that each and every bullet shot downrange is perfect, really knowing what are the true sources of inaccuracy will be very difficult to determine.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Actually, there is a difference.

Trouble is, there are not many rifles, and shooters, who can make a difference to it.

I have a 6 PPC heavy bench rifle.

Built by Dwight Scott, who is a well known gunsmith, who has built rifles for many champions.

It is the only rifle I have, I think, which can actually shoot better than I can ever do.

I have shot groups with it that are immeasurable.

It came with a set of dies cut by the same chambering reamer.

It is a Wilson type die set.

One for depriming and sizing, and the other is a seater.

I loaded several rounds, on an RCBS press and on the Wilson die that came with it.

Same loads.

The Wilson loaded ammo shot much better, every time.

The differences were quite large, and I can only attribute them to the press.

I have a heavy barrel target rifle as well. Using Wilson hand dies makes a big difference as well compared to using regular dies.

For a hunting rifle. No never going to see any improvement that matters.

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:

quote:

It all depends on what you are really after.

The differences were quite big.

From having several groups shooting something like 0.02-0.06" - It is hard to believe, and frankly, I am not really sure of the true measurements.

I tried as much as I could, even using magnifying glasses, and these are the results.

On the press, we never got a single group less than 0.1.

At least for me, it was a convincing experiment.

If we are talking about normal shooting, with other rifles, I am sure the difference would be non existence.

Let me offer something that shooters do not measure, and also basically ignore: bullet concentricity and center of gravity. If the center of gravity is off the axis of rotation, the bullet will wobble. If the balance is off, the bullet will wobble. We all assume that all bullets are perfect and the same. This is not true. Bullets vary, and it is surprising how much they do vary. I have gone through boxes of 500 SMK's and every so often, I find a light, or a heavy bullet. Like a 150 grain bullet in a box of 190's.

Until such time as we can ensure that each and every bullet shot downrange is perfect, really knowing what are the true sources of inaccuracy will be very difficult to determine.

I have a sinclair concentricity guage that I have used for 20 years. Made me a big believer in the Co-Ax press.

I don't know where you can find more BS than on the internet when it comes to guns and loading etc.

I have and old Hollywood monster press and a RCBS A-2 for up to 50 BMG cases, and a couple of c presses somewhere in my shop..

The only difference I have ever detected is when it comes to making bullets or some wildcat cases requiring a lot of muscle to move the brass around..My Hollywood and my RCBS A-2 does that with less effort Ive found..For reloading cases they all work the same..

When I think back to the bench rest days, some of those old gents skipped all the "must do" and stuck a primer in a dirty hole, filled up a dirty case with a spoon full of 4831, mixed primers, mixed powder charges and took a shot of Who shot John to settle their nerves I suppose and shot groups too small to measure...It was kick to watch..and to top it off they wore bib overalls!

Right on Ray!!

The only time I've found much difference was in
bullet differences between weights and or brands..

My old '17 Enfield never made less than 1 1/4" groups with 180gr. After a blow up on the ribs of a cow elk at 200yds with the old C/L. I tried 200gr Sierra GK's. Should have made that change years ago. Dropped groups down close to half inch.

When I had the Sako L461 rebarreled. Two of us came up with 19 various bullets all 40gr. Same load in all: 25gr 4895.

Groups ranged from: 1 1/4" down to ten shots in
.230 repeatedly!

Used just random .223 brass. Nothing special nor consistant other than the same powder charge and CCI SR's.

Hell of it was, the barrel blank was Midways A&B or whatever the name was those days. Paid $70 for it, and Tysue insisted it be frozen first and paid for it himself before it was turned.

I was hurting for funds in fur season when the barrel lost accuracy. Original Sako tube: .222mag. That's so close to .223 I used the same powder charge.

Never been a bench rester. I do very much like to have groups less than half inch for anything.
Then it's up to me to be equal.

George

The press isn't the issue, the die can be. The single biggest problem with consistency at long range is neck tension. Variation in neck tension affects bullet velocity, which in turn determines vertical movement. While this is minor up to about 200 yards, it can wreak havoc with a group past that.

I have always used Redding dies with the replaceable inserts to set the tension properly. Naturally, you want to mike your brass to ensure that the case thickness at the neck is consistent. Use quality brass and separate out unusually thick or thin cases.

Make sure your powder charge is consistent round to round. All of that keeps your velocity spread down under 8fps, which is where you need to be to shoot with the big boys at long distance.

I have used multiple single stage presses over the years and have found little difference between them, aside from the color.

The OP asked only about the press. Not the dies.
Why is the internet so full of experts spouting BS on firearms?, (Asks Ray) many of which actually have limited experience, albeit over 50 years.
Because it is easy to use a data point of one and think you now know it all. In your own little world, you might!
And is the reason which I turned down a job in Small Arms (where everyone thinks they are an expert (they aren't)), at TACOM; preferring to stay in Tank Armament where the experts are real, and far fewer.
And by using the term "You", I certainly do not mean anyone here on AR so the fragile egos do not get upset.

My co-eccentricity gauge is a sheet of plate glass. Roll the completed round and look for wobble. I can also roll bullets and observe how they roll and come to a stop. This can weed out off-center bullets. I have a LEE die that that I have sent back twice but it still produces bent neck rounds. The rest of my 10 dies produce nice co-eccentric cases. As long as the press bore and die bore line up I don't see why different presses would produces accuracy issues with the same dies. I wonder if different shell holders could make a difference? That is perhaps one might allow the case to be sized a bit more or less and that could account for differences in accuracy.

Fourteen Reloading Presses Compared: Single-Stage Shootout

https://ultimatereloader.com/2...ngle-stage-shootout/

Below the Rockchucker press had the least bullet tip runout.

Summary Data: Precision and Evaluation Metrics
Orange = Bottom Score, Green = Top Score

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
The OP asked only about the press. Not the dies.
Why is the internet so full of experts spouting BS on firearms?, (Asks Ray) many of which actually have limited experience, albeit over 50 years.
Because it is easy to use a data point of one and think you now know it all. In your own little world, you might!
And is the reason which I turned down a job in Small Arms (where everyone thinks they are an expert (they aren't)), at TACOM; preferring to stay in Tank Armament where the experts are real, and far fewer.
And by using the term "You", I certainly do not mean anyone here on AR so the fragile egos do not get upset.

How many people use a M1 Abrams Tank to hunt or shoot competitively?????

Very interesting discussion ! Brian

What messes up more brass then any other one thing....

The damn sizer ball

Not to plug any company, but the guy who won Camp Perry High Power Championship 10 times over five decades used factory loaded ammo for his last win a few years back. He said they beat the hell out of the Wilson/Sinclair that was the standard for years.

There is a difference and not many riflemen have the skills to see it.

Sorry guys

quote:

Originally posted by Minkman:
Not to plug any company, but the guy who won Camp Perry High Power Championship 10 times over five decades used factory loaded ammo for his last win a few years back. He said they beat the hell out of the Wilson/Sinclair that was the standard for years.

There is a difference and not many riflemen have the skills to see it.

Sorry guys

Is this competition shot with open sights?

Yes it is. No scopes allowed for three position 200 to 600 yards since the 1800's.

Is there a requirement that they shoot factory ammo?

I shot competitive trap, and always used factory ammo.

My reloads worked just as well, but to avoid any questions I used factory ammo in competition.

In my experience, hand loads, done properly, will beat factory ammo any time.

It never was a requirement in Match rifle class, but it started out in the 1800's using military service rifles and they had to use as issued ammo. Hornady used to supply projectiles and brass to Carl, then they started sending him loaded ammo in various 6mm rounds with which he'd use in competition. After he won again they brought out more choices.

https://www.6mmbr.com/highpowerbasics.html

http://bulletin.accurateshoote...m/tag/carl-bernosky/

Saeed,

What kind of machine do you use to load your trap loads and be able to compete in Dubai, a country that produces world class trap shooters and coaches?

I'm a single stage guy for both rifle and shotgun for hunting. The only competition I do is air rifle silhouette and 3 position rimfire.

I don't shoot trap here at all.

I used to in the US many years ago.

I used PW loading machines, one for each gage.

Worked very well.