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Forster's "bushing bump" neck sizing die
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Anyone used one of these? Based on the product description, it appears to size the neck & bump the shoulder back. If that's true, then is there a reason for a full length die other than the initial sizing of new or "scrounged" brass?
 
Posts: 171 | Location: East Tennessee | Registered: 13 December 2008Reply With Quote
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I like the idea for those dies and think they will be worthwhile for match grade ammo. I bought 2 (.223 rem and 6mmBR) but I will still be FL sizing after annealing. There is not a lot of difference between my FL sized and neck sized cases in those two calibers. I keep my FL sizer very tight as my chambers on those two rifles are set at minimum + .002" for headspace. Still, I don't use any new or freshly annealed brass for score. These dies will allow me to go a couple more firings before annealing.

For general purpose hunting or plinking cartridges, I still either FL size every time or FL size after every 7 loadings with regular neck dies. I've seen a slight improvement in groups using the new Forster dies as mentioned above, but I would not expect any of my factory rifles to benefit much, if at all from their use. If you elect to buy the dies, the "kit" that includes 3 bushings is a good deal, but keep in mind that those three bushings are not going to be 3 consecutive sizes, and the one you want may not be in the kit. As an example, the kit could come with .262" .264" and .266" for a cartridge, and the one that works best for your load is .265" or .267" or something else.

The kit is a good starting place. I do a lot of fooling around with reamed and turned necks for BR shooting, so I bought the kit plus the two missing sizes in between what came in the kit AND the size above and the size below. Wilson or Redding bushings will not work. If you like to load "fitted" necks, partially sizing the neck is easier using the Forster Neck and body die than something like the Lee collet, and the amount of neck left wider is repeatable and uniform.


If the enemy is in range, so are you. - Infantry manual
 
Posts: 494 | Location: The drizzle capitol of the USA | Registered: 11 January 2008Reply With Quote
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Do they ever so slightly touch the body?? If not I think I'll keep to my lee collet die followed by a redding body die.....that makes really really nice ammo and not worried about hunting with tight chambering ammo in snow, dirt, dust, chaffe, you name it.
 
Posts: 2002 | Location: central wi | Registered: 13 September 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by kraky:
Do they ever so slightly touch the body?? If not I think I'll keep to my lee collet die followed by a redding body die.....that makes really really nice ammo and not worried about hunting with tight chambering ammo in snow, dirt, dust, chaffe, you name it.

I sure am! laying in mud sand dirt clay ... deer poo....man I tell you coyote hunting is the best! Most of my shots are 30yds or there around. But sometimes they pop up and the far end of a trail. How nice would it be to know you can take that shot and place the round where you want? I try to make every round as if I m trying for the gold medal! So if I can get something that will help my ammo seat strate I m all over it. But first I would like to hear from people who have used and own them.


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Posts: 934 | Location: North Anson Maine USA | Registered: 27 October 2008Reply With Quote
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Hey kraky

I didn't get from James's post that you ruffled his feathers.

I'm like you, I wonder if it sizes the case body. Essentially the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die does the same thing and does size the case body. Reference their website:

quote:
Type S – Full Bushing Die

Note: For the ultimate shoulder bump control, use our Type-S Full Bushing Die with our new Competition Shellholders.

Full length resizing while maintaining exact control of the case neck is often desirable in one operation. The new Type S - Full Length Resizing/Bushing Die accomplishes this task with the precision you would expect from Redding.

• Uses the same interchangeable bushings (.001" increments) as those used in our bushing style neck sizing dies.

• The adjustable decapping rod allows you to adjust the bushing position, sizing only part of the neck length when desired.

• Concentricity is enhanced by the ability of the bushing to self-center on the neck of the cartridge case.

• All Type S dies are supplied with both the standard size button and a decapping pin retainer for the advantages and versatility described under our Type S - Bushing Style Neck Sizing Dies.


Forster may make a slightly better product than Redding but it would be close. I would think that the Forster would have to resize the case body otherwise bumping the shoulder might create a bulge at the shoulder/body junction.

Also, with any of these bushing dies you need to either use the expander to keep the inside of the neck a consistant diameter or turn the necks to keep the inside diameter consistant.


____________________________________
There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice.
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Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others.

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Posts: 2750 | Location: Houston, Tx | Registered: 17 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Woods..isn't that what the insert is all about? So you don't have to use an expander....you have different sized inserts to give you the amount of sizing without the expander??
 
Posts: 2002 | Location: central wi | Registered: 13 September 2002Reply With Quote
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Well you kinda have a choice. I have a Redding neck sizer bushing die for my 338 RUM (they don't offer a Lee Collet) and size without the expander. But I turn the necks to a consistant thickness.

The Remington cases (only ones available) vary from .013" to .015". Even if I had a big enough chamber neck to load the .015" thickness, if I didn't use the expander the outside neck would be consistant to the bushing, but the variance of .013" to .015" would then be on the inside.

I think that if my neck were big enough and I didn't have a turner then I would want to use the expander because it would be better to have the hills and valleys on the outside of the neck rather than on the inside. The bullet would force the variance to the outside but that would put more tension on that side of the neck and probably push the bullet out of concentric.

I am big into bullet grip now and steel wool down to bare metal on the inside of the neck with no burrs or scratches and use mica. I get more consistant seating pressure and seating depth and accuracy has increased.

So the inside consistancy is important, both surface finish and perfect roundness.


____________________________________
There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice.
- Mark Twain |

Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others.

___________________________________
 
Posts: 2750 | Location: Houston, Tx | Registered: 17 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Where do you get mica? I've been using case lube & a brush, but dipping the case into a little mica seems like a neater solution. Would graphite lock lube work?
 
Posts: 171 | Location: East Tennessee | Registered: 13 December 2008Reply With Quote
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there's a guy on another forum that applies graphite via a solution of graphite and rubbing alchohol on a q-tip. The alchohol quickly dries up leaving the graphite.

You can do a search called "froggys neck lube" and you'll find him and his idea if interested.
He's a pretty fussy reloader...wears latex gloves while loading and everything.
 
Posts: 2002 | Location: central wi | Registered: 13 September 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by eliscomin:
Where do you get mica? I've been using case lube & a brush, but dipping the case into a little mica seems like a neater solution. Would graphite lock lube work?


eliscomin:
Forster makes a set that uses mica to lube the insides of the neck. It's a series of 3 brushes and contains mica. Just push your case down over the closest sized brush and the neck is "lubed". I got my set from Lock, Stock & Barrel (I think). I also got an extra packet of mica for when I run out. Haven't used it much but it seems to work pretty good. The whole setup was around $20 as I recall. Take a look on the Forster site for more info.
I mounted mine on a small block of wood & clamp it on the bench. Hope this helps.
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Posts: 1544 | Location: Fairbanks, Ak., USA | Registered: 16 March 2002Reply With Quote
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The Forster die works the same as the Redding body die, except that it CAN size the neck at the same time. The whole point of these dies is to leave the body untouched except to bump back the shoulders to your preferred headspace. The advantages of the Forster is that you won't be making any big adjustments in headspace which grossly affect body diameter as you might do using a body die that is perhaps only used every now and then. You can more easily create uniform fitted necks, and it's nice to have all 3 functions functions in one die for convenience.

I have one Redding type S full length bushing die. It does what any FL die does, except you can choose how much to resize the neck. They make a separate Neck die with bushings. Unless Redding has added a product recently, they are still going with the 3 discrete dies--one for neck and one for body bump and one for FL sizing.

Frankford Arsenal markets fine ground mica (AKA white graphite) Forster and Redding both market neck graphiters. I use the Forster; the Redding did not exist until recently. While they both help to contain the graphite, they can be a bit messy, so I like the mica rather than true black graphite, which Redding also sells.


If the enemy is in range, so are you. - Infantry manual
 
Posts: 494 | Location: The drizzle capitol of the USA | Registered: 11 January 2008Reply With Quote
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The Forster Graphiter with the 3 brushes is what I got


After using it I don't use the brushes much anymore. I just pile up the mica enough to cover the neck and push it straight down into the mica. Wipe the outside off and it leaves a complete coating on the inside.

Was thinking that graphite would work just as well. The last batch of bullets I seated I could tell the difference in seating force needed even though I used a custom mandrel from Lee in the collet die that gave me .003" bullet grip. Smoother and all seated to the exact same depth.


____________________________________
There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice.
- Mark Twain |

Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others.

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Posts: 2750 | Location: Houston, Tx | Registered: 17 January 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by woods:
Hey kraky

I didn't get from James's post that you ruffled his feathers.

No ruffled feathers, just a opinion, sorry if it came out that way! I d just be out boots on the ground VS trying to keep clean as possible which is a endless task. As long as I do not affect me accuracy I m golden! Best of luck to you guys! Be Safe!
beer


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Posts: 934 | Location: North Anson Maine USA | Registered: 27 October 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
The advantages of the Forster is that you won't be making any big adjustments in headspace which grossly affect body diameter as you might do using a body die that is perhaps only used every now and then.


Amamnn==I'm really confused by this. I have 3 body dies and none "grossly affect body diameter". They seem to body size a quite a bit less than a fl die. I have them set for a .001-.002 bump and you can hardly feel the effort when doing that.
You also say the forester doesn't really touch the body of the case? Not trying to be a smart alec here....I just know what my body dies do and am trying to figure out if the forester is a leap forward....or at least a small step.
 
Posts: 2002 | Location: central wi | Registered: 13 September 2002Reply With Quote
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Small, but useful step. I know some other people who use the Redding die-- there is nothing wrong with it--but they do not necessarily use it EVERY time they neck size. They both mentioned to me once that they had gone too long before bumping and that when they reset the headspace after letting it grow, they noticed that the body diameter (and hence chambering) was affected. As the Forster will be setting the headspace back every time it's used, this will not be a problem. I.E. after FL sizing, and firing in a tight chamber, body diameter is not much affected. However, squeezing the case back down to the original headspace without containing the body (as in a FL sizer) will cause the brass move in the direction of least resistance. If the brass is allowed to grow a lot, then the diameter will be affected more.

This all gets back to my original point about sloppy factory built chambers not seeing much, if any, advantage from these new dies as compared to nice tight custom chambers. I suppose the convenience factor comes into play and saving a bit of money by not buying two dies. Still, I have not seen any real advantage in a body bump die of any kind when loading for those roomy factory chambers. I did buy a Redding body die for one, and the headspace when reset using a FL sizer was the same as far as accuracy was concerned. I anneal all my neck sized brass, match or plinkers, after 7 firings, and so the body die does not seem worthwhile to me for plinking loads. I see a small advantage for match loads, and I need every little advantage I can get.


If the enemy is in range, so are you. - Infantry manual
 
Posts: 494 | Location: The drizzle capitol of the USA | Registered: 11 January 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by amamnn:
The Forster die works the same as the Redding body die, except that it CAN size the neck at the same time. The whole point of these dies is to leave the body untouched except to bump back the shoulders to your preferred headspace.


I'm a little confused by this.

I do know that the Redding Body Die does size the case body while pushing the shoulder back......just like a FL die......except it does not size the neck. If you are saying that the Redding Body Die does not size the case body then that is not correct. You would need to have an exceedingly tight chamber for the Redding Body Die not to size the case body, and in that situation a FL die would not size it either.

Do you know for a fact that the Forster bump die does not size the case body?


____________________________________
There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice.
- Mark Twain |

Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others.

___________________________________
 
Posts: 2750 | Location: Houston, Tx | Registered: 17 January 2005Reply With Quote
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You are thinking what I thought when I first read about the body die--that it sizes like a FL bushing die SANS neck--according to the techs at Redding this is not true--the FL die resets headspace AND the body at the web; the Body die does not. I had the idea that my FL bushing die could do the same job after reading the blurb on the website, but I was advised that the 3 dies do slightly different jobs. After talking to people who had trouble chambering rounds after letting their body bump go for several loadings, I got the point the Redding tech was trying to make. I never went any further with it since the particular cartridge I was neck sizing and bumping with the Redding dies showed no improvements in accuracy using the Redding body bump die as opposed to just FL sizing every few loadings. This was not a tight chamber. You are right that the Redding resizes the body-- but only as concerns headspace -- I am told. However, even in minimum chambers there is always a tiny bit of brass movement, which makes neck sizing of some use, especially to folks who do not jam seat.

Since I had that experience I checked on the Forster dies before purchasing, and was assured that they worked the same way. I have used the Forsters a couple of times since I bought them, and have not noticed any changes in diameter at the web. Again, I am using these dies on minimum diameter and headspace match chambers and would not expect to see any growth.

Forster's wording in their description is perhaps a bit more accurate than Redding's if Redding's techs can be believed, and I have never found a reason to doubt them. Forster only claims to resize the neck and headspace length.

http://www.forsterproducts.com...s/precision_dies.htm


If the enemy is in range, so are you. - Infantry manual
 
Posts: 494 | Location: The drizzle capitol of the USA | Registered: 11 January 2008Reply With Quote
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amamnn

I dug out a set of instructions that come with the Redding Body Die. I will retype word for word what it says:

quote:

INTRODUCTION
Body dies are designed to full length resize your cartidge case and correctly bump the shoulder position for proper chamber fit without disturbing the neck diameter. Body dies have no internal parts and are intended to recondition cases which have become difficult to chamber from repeated firing and neck sizing.

NOTE: BODY DIES ARE NOT DESIGNED OR INTENDED TO BE USED FOR RESIZING LOADED AMMUNITION

PREPARATION
All Redding dies are protected in storage and shipment by a rust preventative film which must be removed before use. Clean the inside of the die with a good grade of bore solvent and wipe thoroughly with a clean dry patch.

Your body die will be used in a manner similar to that of a regular full length sizing die, thus proper lubrication is a must. Visually inspect and clean your cases prior to lubrication. Use only a good grade of case lube such as REDDING Case Lube and follow the directions on the package.

ADJUSTMENT
Body dies are designed with internal dimensions identical to full length resizing dies with the exception of the neck diameter which approximates your chamber size.

Under normal circumstances the body die is adjusted to make contact with the shellholder. If your chamber is known to be non-standard and has excessive headspace, you should follow the recommended method for adjusting resizing dies for "wildcat" calibers to insure proper resizing and headspace. This information is covered in the instructions for our regular die sets.


Now this clearly says that body dies resize the case body just like FL dies.

popcorn


____________________________________
There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice.
- Mark Twain |

Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others.

___________________________________
 
Posts: 2750 | Location: Houston, Tx | Registered: 17 January 2005Reply With Quote
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I e-mailed Forster and asked

quote:
Question

Does your bushing bump die resize the case body as well? Your website clearly states that it resizes all or part of the neck and will push the shoulder back but it does not say it resizes the case body.

Thanks, you make a great product.



and they answered

quote:
Thank you for the inquiry regarding the Bushing Bump Neck Sizing die.



This die does not size the case body. It sizes the neck and the shoulder of the case in one step.



We appreciate your continued interest in our products. Please let us know if we can be of further assistance.



Regards,



Dee

Foster Products



So now the question is when it pushes the shoulder back and the case body is not in rigid support, where does that brass go?


____________________________________
There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice.
- Mark Twain |

Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others.

___________________________________
 
Posts: 2750 | Location: Houston, Tx | Registered: 17 January 2005Reply With Quote
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The Fing tooth fairy takes it to LALA land and Elvis makes it disappear.


If the enemy is in range, so are you. - Infantry manual
 
Posts: 494 | Location: The drizzle capitol of the USA | Registered: 11 January 2008Reply With Quote
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After all the discussion, I'm still not sure, but I bought one for my .308 & will see how it works.
Thanks for the replys & advice - interesting discussions.
 
Posts: 171 | Location: East Tennessee | Registered: 13 December 2008Reply With Quote
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Sorry that the thread got hijacked.


To get back to the original Q, IMHO, having bought 2 of the dies in question and having used 1 of a die which the Forster improves upon:

I feel that neither die would be worth buying for use in reloading ammunition meant to be used in today's factory chambers. I don't see a real advantage over FL sizing for factory chambers every 5-7 loadings or so. I feel that the Forster dies are a slight, but significant improvement upon the Redding Body die for reloading ammunition to be used in custom built chambers that are at or near the SAAMI minimun size (if applicable) for the caliber.

My own use, in addition to reports given me by other, very experienced handloaders, leads me to believe that the Redding body die, while a very good tool, encourages the handloader to delay resetting the headspace of neck sized cases, until such time as the said cases have grown to such a size that resetting headspace using said die will result in hard, or failure to chamber in close tolerance match chambers. The Forster version of this tool will eliminate errors due to such misuse by making it easy to reset headspace EVERY loading. I would not be surprised to see the patent leased to other companies in the near future, as Lee has done in the past, but I would not expect any significant drop in price as Forster already has an established reputation for delivering BR quality tools and dies at fair prices.


If the enemy is in range, so are you. - Infantry manual
 
Posts: 494 | Location: The drizzle capitol of the USA | Registered: 11 January 2008Reply With Quote
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PS............ I do not own stock in Forster.......................


If the enemy is in range, so are you. - Infantry manual
 
Posts: 494 | Location: The drizzle capitol of the USA | Registered: 11 January 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by amamnn:
....the Redding body die, while a very good tool, encourages the handloader to delay resetting the headspace of neck sized cases, until such time as the said cases have grown to such a size that resetting headspace using said die will result in hard, or failure to chamber in close tolerance match chambers. The Forster version of this tool will eliminate errors due to such misuse by making it easy to reset headspace EVERY loading.


How do you set headspace back when it is not even touching the shoulder yet? Unless you are full length resizing and that is not good for brass life.

For instance if you have once fired brass that has still not grown to fit the chamber and still has .003" or so before a crush fit, where do you set the headspace to? It does no good to set the headspace unless the brass has grown to where it needs it.

Even if I had the Forster bump die, I would not set it to bump the shoulder until the shoulder became a problem, which is exactly when I use the Redding Body Die.


____________________________________
There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice.
- Mark Twain |

Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others.

___________________________________
 
Posts: 2750 | Location: Houston, Tx | Registered: 17 January 2005Reply With Quote
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The die is adjusted the same as any FLRS die.
Quote:
4.0 CASE SIZING PROCEDURE
1. Install the die into any standard 7/8-14 thread reloading
press or Forster’s Co-Ax® Reloading Press so that it
makes contact with the shell holder when the ram is at its
uppermost position.
This leaves no adjustment on how much the shoulder is bumped. If the bushing is remover it becomes a body die that can maintain proper headspace in any
chamber, custom or factory.
Quote:
5.2 Shoulder Bump Only (See Fig. 4.)
By removing the neck bushing, the Bushing Bump Die may be
used to bump the shoulder without changing the case neck
diameter. This action maintains proper headspace in any
chamber, custom or factory.
I know what the email said from Forster (DEE), but i dont buy it. Instructions
 
Posts: 1284 | Location: USA | Registered: 21 May 2001Reply With Quote
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Well, I pushed Dee a little further and she referred the question to a tech and this is what he e-mailed me back

quote:
Dee referred your query to me and here is ,hopefully, the answer to your concern. Your question is important to us. You mentioned that you "were leery of creating a bulge in your case body". Answer: The body of the Bushing Bump die is designed to push the shoulder of the rifle case back only .001" or .002". This is just enough to support the case and to keep the body of the case in good alignment while the neck of the case is being squeezed down to a smaller dimension. If one were to try to push the shoulder back much more than .002" you may develop a problem with case "bulge". Best regards and good shooting, Bob Ruch @ Forster Products Inc.


So according to this tech, the Forster does not size the case body and care needs to be taken to push the shoulder back no more than a couple of thousandths. If the shoulder were pushed back .002" on once fired cases when the case shoulder was still .003" from contacting the chamber shoulder and the die adjustment was left there, then each time the case was sized the shoulder would be pushed back and create as much as .005" of headspace.

That would be a quick road to a case head separation.

On the other hand, if the die were not used to push the shoulder back until the case had grown to have contact at the shoulder, then the die could be used to push the shoulder back a minimal amount. I only have one case where the chamber is so tight that the Redding Body Die does not resize the case body, that is in my 280AI. After 4 firings the case becomes hard to chamber and it is not because of binding at the shoulder or neck but at the pressure ring.

So if it does not size the case body then the case could become tight in the chamber after several firings.


____________________________________
There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice.
- Mark Twain |

Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others.

___________________________________
 
Posts: 2750 | Location: Houston, Tx | Registered: 17 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Thanks for the replies - my die hasn't come in yet, but reading 243winxb's comments & the instructions makes me curious - - If the set up involves simply screwing the die in to touch the shellholder with the ram all the way up,(typical set up instructions for full length sizing dies) that would seem to "bump" to a "standard" headspace, or "standard" length from bolt face to shoulder. Isn't the point here to bump to a length specific to an individual rifle? Looks to me like you would want to get a case that you know is touching the chamber shoulder & set the die to that case, kind of like setting up a FL die for PFLR. Am I missing something in the way this die should operate?
 
Posts: 171 | Location: East Tennessee | Registered: 13 December 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by eliscomin:
Thanks for the replies - my die hasn't come in yet, but reading 243winxb's comments & the instructions makes me curious - - If the set up involves simply screwing the die in to touch the shellholder with the ram all the way up,(typical set up instructions for full length sizing dies) that would seem to "bump" to a "standard" headspace, or "standard" length from bolt face to shoulder. Isn't the point here to bump to a length specific to an individual rifle? Looks to me like you would want to get a case that you know is touching the chamber shoulder & set the die to that case, kind of like setting up a FL die for PFLR. Am I missing something in the way this die should operate?
eliscomin, yes, you understanding is correct. You would need to adjust the die so as not to push the shoulder back to far. Also this die is best when brass has been outside neck turned as die does not come with an expander. Quote:
6.0 OPTIONAL ADDITION FOR NECK EXPANSION
Although the Bushing Bump Die is designed for prepared
cartridges that normally do not require an expander ball, Forster
Expander Balls (E-10) may be ordered separately (See Section
8.0) and installed on the Spindle (D-10). This step may be
desirable when using commercial brass “as is” or to correct
damaged case mouths ejected from semi-automatic rifles.
 
Posts: 1284 | Location: USA | Registered: 21 May 2001Reply With Quote
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