I reloaded some 40 S & W.. I am almost certain I didn't double charge the casing due to the casing being 2/3 full with a normal charge. Also I did not seat the bullet deeper than instructed. Can anyone give a good reason why the rim blew off this casing. I was shooting a Beretta 96FS which will need to go back to beretta because of the damage to the gun.

That one would shake you up!

Looks like the case came apart in the unsupported area of the chamber.

Did you load the correct powder? Did the pistol's slide go completely home before it was fired?

Any other damage?

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Did you load the correct powder? Did the pistol's slide go completely home before it was fired?

Any other damage?

Yes I know I was using the correct powder. I reloaded 100 and shot 56 and the 57th blew up. The casing was stuck in the barrel/chamber and the rim was ejected.

Just a thought ... the primer is pretty flat. Is it also pierced? (Can't tell from the pic.)

I'd guess an over charge given a pierced primer and the case failure in the unsupported zone.

(In the old days of IPSC there was a fella who was selling a sizer that rolled the case. There were some problems with brass fatigue resulting in case failure. How were these cases sized?)

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Is it also pierced? (Can't tell from the pic.)
How were these cases sized?)

The primer is flat and not pierced. The case was sized with RCBS carbide die.

That is a classic example of an over charged case in a semi auto pistol. You may not have double charged but one charge may have 'bridged" or otherwise left part of it's charge in the thrower. Are you using a single stage press and using a seperate powders thrower or a progressive press?

Larry Gibson

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Are you using a single stage press and using a seperate powders thrower or a progressive press?

I am using a single stage RCBS Rock Chuckar and RCBS Uniflow Powder Measure.

Downloaded the last pic and took a good zoomed look at the case. My guess is that the slide did not go to battery ... if the ramp is in the normal place in the pistol. The pic shows the unsupported area to be much further forward on the remains of the spent than I would expect it to be.

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/kb-notes.html#A1

In this link, (orginally tlaks about failures in glocks) there are a number of things that could happen with your 40 S$W.

One of which, might be that when the bullet hit the feed ramp it may have been pushed into casing causing this to happen.

What was news to me is that just feeding factory ammo more than twice through you gun without firing can cause this to happen.

Do you know how many reloads you have on this brass?

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Do you know how many reloads you have on this brass?

I bought it on line as once fired. I checked out the brass as I was reloading and didn't see any issues of stress or bulging.

40 s&w cases are foamous for having that little bulge they are now making pass through dies to address this issue.
but refiring the bulged cases from another unsupported chamber will lead to the failure sooner or later.
even if the new chamber is supported the brass has already been stressed,just like splitting a cxase mouth from working it back and forth from belling and crimping.

You never posted your load, is there some reason for that? The 40, like other high pressure rounds, can cause serious issues w/ even a small bullet setback w/ the wrong powders. A bullet setback of as much as 0.04" (about 1/32") can push an already max. laod over the edge. Unsupported chamber, weak brass & bang! What did you load them on, progressive, singles stage, powder measure, weighed charge? What kind of bullets, priemr, powder, OAL? You need to provide more info. if anyone is going to give you anything but a WAG.

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You never posted your load, is there some reason for that? The 40, like other high pressure rounds, can cause serious issues w/ even a small bullet setback w/ the wrong powders. A bullet setback of as much as 0.04" (about 1/32") can push an already max. laod over the edge. Unsupported chamber, weak brass & bang! What did you load them on, progressive, singles stage, powder measure, weighed charge? What kind of bullets, priemr, powder, OAL? You need to provide more info. if anyone is going to give you anything but a WAG.

Powder is Unique 6.5grs, bullet is uni-cor 180 gr TMJ seated 1.124 with federal small pistol primer

I am using a single stage RCBS Rock Chuckar and RCBS Uniflow Powder Measure

did you make sure the powder measure was totally empty? seen that happen before when there was a few grains of something else left in the measure. i'd also check some of the other loads to see if you have some cracks going around the heads

I have done overload work ups on semi auto pistol thousands of times.

I have seen guppy belly bulges and blow outs countless times.

I have only seen the case separate once before in my life, and it was a 10mm that I was working up in .1 gr increments. The failure came a 2 gr above max load. I continued to ~ 5 gr above max load.

There was something wrong with my piece of brass, that I got used.

What does it all mean?
a) Your bulge failure is normal for high pressure and poor case support over the feed ramp.
b) The separation failure around the rest of the circumference of the case is unusual and suggests defective or worn out brass.

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Originally posted by mstarling:
Downloaded the last pic and took a good zoomed look at the case. My guess is that the slide did not go to battery ... if the ramp is in the normal place in the pistol. The pic shows the unsupported area to be much further forward on the remains of the spent than I would expect it to be.

That is my impression and opinion also. It's instantly apparent that the blowout happened when the case was only partially chambered but the question is, did this happen before the slide came into full battery, or did it happen after an overload's remaining pressure blew it out during recoil?
Regards, Joe

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Originally posted by joedjr:

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You never posted your load, is there some reason for that? The 40, like other high pressure rounds, can cause serious issues w/ even a small bullet setback w/ the wrong powders. A bullet setback of as much as 0.04" (about 1/32") can push an already max. laod over the edge. Unsupported chamber, weak brass & bang! What did you load them on, progressive, singles stage, powder measure, weighed charge? What kind of bullets, priemr, powder, OAL? You need to provide more info. if anyone is going to give you anything but a WAG.

Powder is Unique 6.5grs, bullet is uni-cor 180 gr TMJ seated 1.124 with federal small pistol primer

I am using a single stage RCBS Rock Chuckar and RCBS Uniflow Powder Measure

ThAT's a warm load, but not excessive. Bad brass & possible bullet setback, bang! I've had bullet setbacks in new facotry ammo & when using old brass in just about all the service rounds. Glad you weren't hurt. Maybe dial those down closer to 6gr, it's my working load w/ a 175gr LRFP or 180grJHP.

I would recommend a factory crimp die for the 40 S&W. Helps reduce setback. A 40 needs to feed very well to avoid problems.

I have noted that some chambers seem to allow more expansion than others. Results in working the brass more during sizing which shortens its life. My 1911 based pistols with Nowlin ramped barrels do it less than the others, followed by the CZ75 clones and the SIG. The little StarFire is the worst.

I'm going to agree with tnekkcc (bet that surprises him .

I've seen that bulge in exactly the same place of .40s and 10mm's many, many times. I see it also on 9mm, .38 Supers and .45s where the pressure was pushed. Given the Uniflow powder thrower I'm betting a bridging of the powder like I mentioned. Always a good bet to do a "visual" of the powder charges with the cases in the loading block to ensure one case doesn't have too much powder.

joedr staes "Powder is Unique 6.5grs, bullet is uni-cor 180 gr TMJ seated 1.124 with federal small pistol primer".

Thus if we consider 6.5 gr of Unique under a 180 gr TMJ is already and over load (5.5 - 5.6 gr is the listed max in all of my manuals) then the stage for disaster was already set with a 14% overload. Perhaps just a weak case that let go under the over pressure as tnekkcc says. Goes to show if you're going to dance you've got to pay the band.

Larry Gibson

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There was something wrong with my piece of brass, that I got used.

yeah, I am going to concur with Clark and Larry G.... I'd say that case had a defect... or else how many times has it been loaded before this time?

If the powder charge was correct as you stated, then I'd say it was defective piece of brass, or worn out...

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then the stage for disaster was already set with a 14% overload.

My understanding is that a 14% 'overload' would produce way more than 14% pressure increase? (How much would pushing the bullet back add to that?)
I am interested in understand this event.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
I'm going to agree with tnekkcc (bet that surprises him .

I've seen that bulge in exactly the same place of .40s and 10mm's many, many times. I see it also on 9mm, .38 Supers and .45s where the pressure was pushed. Given the Uniflow powder thrower I'm betting a bridging of the powder like I mentioned. Always a good bet to do a "visual" of the powder charges with the cases in the loading block to ensure one case doesn't have too much powder.

joedr staes "Powder is Unique 6.5grs, bullet is uni-cor 180 gr TMJ seated 1.124 with federal small pistol primer".

Thus if we consider 6.5 gr of Unique under a 180 gr TMJ is already and over load (5.5 - 5.6 gr is the listed max in all of my manuals) then the stage for disaster was already set with a 14% overload. Perhaps just a weak case that let go under the over pressure as tnekkcc says. Goes to show if you're going to dance you've got to pay the band.

Larry Gibson

LArry, you need new manuals. The current Speer shows 6.7gr as max. for their 180grTMJ. A 6.5gr charge is more than 1/2 the case volumn, so a double is not likely unless the OP was not paying attention & seated a bullet on a case overflowing w/ powder.
My money is still on defective piece of brass that allowed a setback & the resulting pressure blew out at the weak spot. How much pressure? It will vary drastically w/ the powder used, case volumn & bore size. I can tell you that deep seating a 250gr 45acp 0.08" using Unique, produced 100fps+ vel. gain. That is a pretty significant increase in pressure. Now do that w/ an uberfast powder, long bullet & high pressure load like a 40 & hold on.

I don't know the Beretta 96 FS, but I know quite well the 92FS, that is my duty gun; it's VERY unlikely IMO, that the slide didn't close well on that cartridge, rather, I would suppose a defective/weakened case and/or a bullet setback.

Why did I know this thread was about the .40 S&W before I opened it?

The only surprise was that a Glock Grenade #22 was not involved!

fredj338

"The current Speer shows 6.7gr as max."

You mean to tell me the manuals are never wrong? Considering the Lyman lists the pressure and Speer doesn't I'm prone to go with the Lyman. Also considering the incident under discussion and the fact that the load was a stated 6.5 gr Unique then I'm really not bying "worn out brass". The head of that case is still too clean and unmarred to have been fired very many times (I'm betting once fired with this incident being the second) especially in a .40 S&W.

Seems we always want to find blame for a non animate malfunction when the most likely error is human. I'd also question whether joedr worked up that load or if he just "loaded 100 rounds" like he said and went shooting. I sure as hell wouldn't shoot the remaining 43 rounds.

Larry Gibson

So... exactly how much of the case is unsuported in the Beretta 96FS? Surely the slide would have to move back quite some distance before the breach face separates from the barrel? Why would a double charge split and bulge the case without extruding the primer? (Understanding that this was not a double charge).

It's simple the slide did not lock up it has happened to me before in several different guns.

I have only had two semi-auto's and those could not fire unless properly locked up. Rearward movement of the slide starts pushing the hammer back before the barrel starts to unlock. I have had the slide not going to battery and the gun just did not fire. Mine were both Stars.

Unique is a pretty fast burning powder. Fast powders produce steep pressure spikes.

40 S&W is a high pressure round. Unique is not a good choice for this caliber. High pressure and steep spike in a fast powder are bad combinations.

Load specs on 40 Smith are crucial, particularly seating depth, but also taper crimp sufficient to keep the bullet from working into the case during recoil in the magazine.

40 Smith is taper crimped. Taper crimp is necessary for headspacing on the mouth, but it also allows bullets to work their way down into the case (deep seating), through the action of recoil in a high capacity mag.

"Once fired brass" -- Fired in what? Did you run a caliper on any of it before you resized it? If it was fired in a Glock, the brass is stretched, because Glock runs a over-bored, unsupported chamber, and a deeply cut, unsupported feed ramp.

I'd be hesitant to buy 40 Smith brass "once fired" from a source I don't know.

This failure was at the bottom of a mag? Just a hunch.

The case failed at the web. I'm not familiar with Beretta chambers, but feed ramps in semi-autos creep up on the edge of the web and leave it unsupported.

Resizing "stretched" brass results in "work hardening." This is what causes mouth splitting in brass, but also repeated resizing of brass fired in an overbored chamber will cause the whole case to work harden. Work hardening of brass is particularly apparent at the margin of the web -- That's where resizing thins the brass, hardens it, and weakens the case.

I'd opt for a slower powder, like Hodgdon HS6 or Win. 231, new brass, and when it comes right down to it, stick to loading something "low pressure" like 45 ACP, or 38 Spl. -- in a fully supported chamber.

Chambers and ammo are typically made at the small end of the sloppy SAAMI tolerances.
The top of the ammo tolerance range is the bottom of the chamber range.
Ammo to chamber fit is then usually 1/2 of the total possible ammo to chamber sloppiness.
The 40sw is the exception.
The rear of the 40 sw chamber is .4274" + .004".
The rear of the 40 sw cartridge is .424 - .005".
We would expect a chamber slightly more than .4274" and ammo slightly more than .419" for a sloppiness of .0084".
But Glock 22 40sw pistols made 15 years ago had chambers that were larger than .4314".
The brass was being worked is a plastic deformation hysteretic loop of more than .0124"
So your brass wore out 33% faster?
That is not what happened here.
The die carbide ring has a taper and the shell holder has a height, so the brass does not get worked all the way to the extractor groove.
Normal reloading has no effect on the brass where this one failed.*
The head and the body appear to have been made separately, poorly welded together, and separated again.


* I built a 45acp target rifle with .469" straight chamber. Brass had to be forced through a carbide die with hammer and punch to get sizing at the web. Grinding the carbide with diamond to get rid of the taper is not enough. The shell holder must be taken out.

What kind of damage was done to the Beretta?
Were the locking features damaged from excessive pressure or did the case separate and spring a big leak with out damaging the locking features?

SR4759,
Where were you from May 5 to May 10?
I felt a disturbance in the force.
There was a terrible dip in the average I.Q.

Thank You all to the replies. Though I am not new to pistol, rifle shooting and hunting, I've been at it for 40 years now, I am very new to reloading. I've read three books/loading manuals reagarding this new hobbie and thought I had this right. I followed the load data in the speer# 14 manual and was very careful with the weights and the seating depth. For this reason I am almost 99.9% certain the powder charge and seating were correct. I was measuring about every 3rd charge and measuring the COAL on every bullet.
I beleive the problem was the once used brass I bought on line. Though I inspected it before reloading I could have missed ssomething or maybe there was no visible signs.
Anyway I am now second guesing this new hobby due to the scare I just had.
Thanks Again to all the insight to what the problem may have been.
Joe

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Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
fredj338

"The current Speer shows 6.7gr as max."

You mean to tell me the manuals are never wrong? Considering the Lyman lists the pressure and Speer doesn't I'm prone to go with the Lyman. Also considering the incident under discussion and the fact that the load was a stated 6.5 gr Unique then I'm really not bying "worn out brass". The head of that case is still too clean and unmarred to have been fired very many times (I'm betting once fired with this incident being the second) especially in a .40 S&W.

Larry Gibson

Larry, the load in the Lyman #49 shows it at only 22,800cup @ OAL 1.115". That is well off max. pressure & I always load the 40s to max OAL of 1.125". I have yet to have any data from the SPeer manual not give me vel. pretty close to what they print. Unless it is an error, which I doubt, it would have been exposed long ago, I am comfortable working upto Speer max data.
As to Unique being unsuitable in the 40, BS, it is NOT a fast powder but the beginning of the medium burners. The pressure curve is far shallower than say Bullsey, Clays, etc. I've shot #s of it in the 40, albight not at max. levels. Approach all max. loads regardless of powder w/ care.

Joe, as a side note...double check your crimp on any of the remaining rounds. I had a few 135gr Noslers that I loaded and didn't fully crimp. I could push them into the case with my thumb ! Sure taught me to double check my reloads.

Head and body made separately ???? NO ! cases are made from one piece of brass.The slug is back extruded .I have seen a similar situation at an IPSC match .The case didn't completely separate.IIRC it was a 45acp reloaded a number of times.That case was a rare situation and started with a manufacturing problem. Send me the case and I'll see if it's the same problem.

fredj338

The Lyman load is at the top end of what they would consider a max load at, it is probably around 28,000 psi. That is pretty high for any auto cartridge with a normal feed ramp where the case is unsupported. Now if we go with Speer's listed max load then can you see the problem? There really isn't much sense in trying to make the .40 Short & Weak into a 10mm. I have seen that bulge too many times on most all cartridges (9mm, .38 super, both .40s and lots of .45 ACPs). Almost always from a hot load. In every inctance where the case ruptured it was because of an over load.

joedjr states; "I am very new to reloading. I've read three books/loading manuals reagarding this new hobbie and thought I had this right. I followed the load data in the speer# 14 manual and was very careful with the weights and the seating depth. For this reason I am almost 99.9% certain the powder charge and seating were correct. I was measuring about every 3rd charge and measuring the COAL on every bullet."

What he says may very well be the case. The problem is he forgot the part in all 3 manuals that says; "work up the load". Apparently he jumped to a load that was .2 gr short of the highest maximum load listed in the 3 manuals.

We can make all of the excuses we want about weak brass, fired too many times etc. but the max effective range of those excuses is zero meters. The fact is, joe jumped to basically a max load without working up. That load was over max for his pistol (if he didn't screw up and get more powder in one case as he says). That load blew. Not to hard to understand the problem, sympathy withstanding.

Larry Gibson

The specific damage to the gun was never elaborated on. If the locking features were damaged then the pressure was too high.
If the pressure was too high that is an operator caused issue.
So the question remains
Did the gun fire locked up or was it unlocked?

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Did the gun fire locked up or was it unlocked?

I would answer the above but not quite sure how I would be able to tell. I assume you mean was the slide opened when the gun went off on this round. How would I have been able to tell?

If the slide was not locked it would have almost blown the slide backward off of the frame.

If it was locked and the pressure was normal the lock up of the barrel and slide would still be normal.
If the pressure was excessive the locking features and the chamber would probably be damaged.