airlines will NOT transport smokeless powder.

However, they do transport loaded ammo all the time.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Arniet:
I guess I wasn't quite clear. You bring a 45-70, and your full allowance of cartridges, loaded 300 grain bullets and 52.3 grains of RL-7, right out of the H handbook. This gives you a speed loader for the Savage ML, just a couple of whacks with a bullet puller. You have the powder and bullet, just bring the sabot in your luggage. That will give you everything but the 209 primer. Can you buy those in Zim?

RL7 appears to be UN rating Explosive 1.3 so therefore absolutely banned from travel on any commercial aircraft under any circumstance whatsoever & attempt to do so could bring a fine of $750k if no one was injured & twice that if they were plus possible jail time dependent on circumstances. (See my previous post about penalties etc)

See 'Section 2 - Hazards Identification'

http://www.alliantpowder.com/d...loder_Series_SDS.pdf

Please don't think I'm trying to be awkward because that isn't my intent............... My intent is to explain the rules so no-one gets into trouble or injured/killed etc.

Steve,

I'm thinking there must be more info that is missing from your link and carriage of the RL powders. The link you provided appears to apply to ALL Reloader (RL) powders from Alliant. If that is the case, and there is no additional exemptions allowing carriage, then one of the most widely used powders for dangerous game calibers, RL-15, would also fall into that classification.

What am I missing here?

Mate, I think what you're missing is that you're looking at manufacturer instead of the UN rating.............. it's not about who makes it at all & is all about the UN classification & nothing else whatsoever.

If the UN rating starts with the word Explosive then it's a banned substance............ I'm not a muzzle loader & don't pretend to know much about them but logic would suggest that if they mostly work on BP or a substitute then most if not all will have similar burn characteristics which in turn suggest most if not all will be classified as Explosive & therefore banned

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
airlines will NOT transport smokeless powder.

However, they do transport loaded ammo all the time.

Yes, but Saeed, we are digging deep into the weeds here so stay with us. The discussion has centered around loading ammo with black powder. As Steve and others have pointed out, that does not satisfy the rules for carriage aboard commercial aircraft.

Someone mentioned ammunition loaded with RL-7. Steve pointed out its classification as being Explosive 1.3, and stated it is also prohibited from carriage as loaded ammo. I looked at that document Steve provided on Alliant Reloader powders and it appears to apply to RL-15 and all of the Reloader series of powders. Same applies to the Hodgen powders I provided. All listed as Explosive 1.3

So at first glance, it appears Steve's analysis would prohibit carriage of all powders on the market, even as loaded ammunition.

I am trying to find the specific exemptions or authorizations that allow carriage of these Explosive 1.3 powders as loaded ammunition. I believe the issue lies in the difference of Explosive 1.1 and 1.3 classifications, but so far haven't been able to nail that down.

Steve, I can't find the UN ratings. Do you have a link I can review.

Did you see my response above to Saeed?

I'm wondering if the classification difference between 1.1 and 1.3 is the key?

Of course, not having seen the UN ratings I'm requesting above, that may very well satisfy the issue.

I'm digging into this however from your posting of the manufacturer's rating on the RL or Alliant powders listed as Explosive 1.3. It just appears that if we stick with that, no gun powder would be allowed at all, loaded or in loose powder form. I'm looking for the exemption and specific authorizations as something is missing from the equation. Not being obtuse to you at all, just fact finding.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Steve, for example, see the sheet for Hodgen powders as well here:

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-con...powders_02-11-14.pdf

Check section 2 - Hazard Identification & it shows 'Explosive 1:3 so also banned.

If the UN rating is 'Explosive + any number it cannot be carried under any circumstances

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
airlines will NOT transport smokeless powder.

However, they do transport loaded ammo all the time.

Saeed:

Yes & no......... smokeless powders that have the UN rating of 'Flammable' because the Air Navigation Order Carriage of Dangerous Goods Act (which applies worldwide) states that materials rated as UN Flammable may travel under certain circumstances such as in loaded ammo cases but only up to a certain amount and that's the reason hunters have the ammo weight limit........ However pots of Flammable rated material may not travel.

Materials rated as UN Explosive + any number may not travel on any commercial aircraft under any circumstances whatsoever because they are considered considerably more dangerous.

As a pilot yourself, you'll know that aircraft compartments can contain a degree of fire for a short period but are far more susceptible to explosion.

Bloody complicate hey?

Steve,

Ammo is air freighted in large quantities without any problems.

I am talking hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammo.

Both rifle and shotgun.

I have no idea why there is a limit to what hunters can carry.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Steve, I can't find the UN ratings. Do you have a link I can review.

Did you see my response above to Saeed?

I'm wondering if the classification difference between 1.1 and 1.3 is the key?

Of course, not having seen the UN ratings I'm requesting above, that may very well satisfy the issue.

I'm digging into this however from your posting of the manufacturer's rating on the RL or Alliant powders listed as Explosive 1.3. It just appears that if we stick with that, no gun powder would be allowed at all, loaded or in loose powder form. I'm looking for the exemption and specific authorizations as something is missing from the equation. Not being obtuse to you at all, just fact finding.

It's a long time since I was involved in all this stuff but to the best of my knowledge, there are absolutely no exceptions whatsoever to the rule that any material UN rated as 'Explosive + ANY number is absolutely banned.

The way to confirm that is to study the Air Navigation Order Carriage of Dangerous Goods Act but it's not an easy or fast thing to study.

I KNOW that was the rule when I was involved & would be VERY surprised indeed to hear rules had been relaxed in the interim period........... If anything, I'd have expected them to have been tightened.

I should perhaps add that I believe (but am not 110% sure) that one could ship 'Explosive' rated materials by surface transport & under HAZMAT rules & packaging but that would obviously take considerably longer & entail a considerable amount of paperwork.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Steve, for example, see the sheet for Hodgen powders as well here:

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-con...powders_02-11-14.pdf

Check section 2 - Hazard Identification & it shows 'Explosive 1:3 so also banned.

If the UN rating is 'Explosive + any number it cannot be carried under any circumstances

Yes, I saw that. As I stated earlier, working with what we've provided so far on this thread (Alliant and Hodgen powders listed as Explosive 1.3), I don't see the exemption or authorization that would allow any type of gun powder, EVEN IN LOADED AMMUNITION FORM, to be carried.

As we know loaded ammo IS allowed to be carried, so we are obviously missing something that specifically provides for the carriage of smokeless gun powder in loaded form.

Take this for example Steve, a non handloader purchases factory ammo to take on safari. He has no idea of the powder used in that ammo. Going with the two links you and I provided for Alliant and Hodgen powders, how does one KNOW the powder in his factory ammo is not loaded with that particular powder and is therefore good to go taking it aboard an airliner?

Taking the argument further, and this is the gist of my line of inquiry, if we know these common powders are listed as Explosive 1.3 and assume they are banned, even in loaded ammo form, but KNOW that is NOT the case at all, what is the exemption that allows them to be carried in loaded form. Once we find that exemption or authorization, we can ascertain whether or not the same exemption or authorization also applies to black powder in loaded ammunition form. So far we, on this thread and others similar to it, have worked from a position of assumptions without a clear path to the actual carriage regulations as what we have presented so far is contradictory.

It actually says there it is FORBIDDEN to be carried in the plane??!!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Steve,

Ammo is air freighted in large quantities without any problems.

I am talking hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammo.

Both rifle and shotgun.

I have no idea why there is a limit to what hunters can carry.

I think you'll find most goes by surface transport under HAZMAT conditions & packaging but I doubt very much that it goes by commercial passenger aircraft........... perhaps cargo only aircraft but I've never ha much to do with them.

The reason hunters have a limit is to ensure that even if there are a group of hunters the ammo containing bags will be scattered throughout the compartment(s) rather than one large amount thus creating less possibility of it all doing something it shouldn't all at once.......... which (incidentally) is also the reason that two or more hunters are forbidden to combine their ammo allotment into one bag.

These rules were initially introduced immediately after WWII so they've had ample time to get it well & truly sussed out.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Steve, for example, see the sheet for Hodgen powders as well here:

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-con...powders_02-11-14.pdf

Check section 2 - Hazard Identification & it shows 'Explosive 1:3 so also banned.

If the UN rating is 'Explosive + any number it cannot be carried under any circumstances

Yes, I saw that. As I stated earlier, working with what we've provided so far on this thread (Alliant and Hodgen powders listed as Explosive 1.3), I don't see the exemption or authorization that would allow any type of gun powder, EVEN IN LOADED AMMUNITION FORM, to be carried.

As we know loaded ammo IS allowed to be carried, so we are obviously missing something that specifically provides for the carriage of smokeless gun powder in loaded form.

Take this for example Steve, a non handloader purchases factory ammo to take on safari. He has no idea of the powder used in that ammo. Going with the two links you and I provided for Alliant and Hodgen powders, how does one KNOW the powder in his factory ammo is not loaded with that particular powder and is therefore good to go taking it aboard an airliner?

Taking the argument further, and this is the gist of my line of inquiry, if we know these common powders are listed as Explosive 1.3 and assume they are banned, even in loaded ammo form, but KNOW that is NOT the case at all, what is the exemption that allows them to be carried in loaded form. Once we find that exemption or authorization, we can ascertain whether or not the same exemption or authorization also applies to black powder in loaded ammunition form. So far we, on this thread and others similar to it, have worked from a position of assumptions without a clear path to the actual carriage regulations as what we have presented so far is contradictory.

Todd;

Forget the word smokeless & the term gun powder ets for this because such terms have no meaning under the rules.

The ONLY thing that matters is the UN rating & if that UN rating is 'Explosive' + any number then it may not travel on any commercial aircraft.

If it says 'Flammable' + any number then it may possibly travel under certain (but not all) conditions.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It actually says there it is FORBIDDEN to be carried in the plane??!!

Sorry Saeed............ I don't understand your question?

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It actually says there it is FORBIDDEN to be carried in the plane??!!

Sorry Saeed............ I don't understand your question?

Look at the link Todd provided and see under transport and UN number.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It actually says there it is FORBIDDEN to be carried in the plane??!!

Sorry Saeed............ I don't understand your question?

Look at the link Todd provided and see under transport and UN number.

Ah. Gotcha.

Assuming you mean this link:

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-con...powders_02-11-14.pdf

The 2nd page down at the top of 'Hazards Identification' shows it as Explosive 1:3 & the Air Navigation Order Carriage of Dangerous Goods Act states that no material with UN rating Explosive may travel.

This is the UK version but it's essentially the same act worldwide & it's a shit of a thing to wade through & even more of a shit of a thing to learn properly but unless things have been relaxed since I worked with it, (which I doubt) you'll find it all there somewhere if you have the patience.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/...16/765/contents/made

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It actually says there it is FORBIDDEN to be carried in the plane??!!

Sorry Saeed............ I don't understand your question?

Look at the link Todd provided and see under transport and UN number.

Ah. Gotcha.

Assuming you mean this link:

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-con...powders_02-11-14.pdf

The 2nd page down at the top of 'Hazards Identification' shows it as Explosive 1:3 & the Air Navigation Order Carriage of Dangerous Goods Act states that no material with UN rating Explosive may travel.

EXACTLY Steve. The link you provided for the Alliant powders says the same thing. The reference that caused you to look it up was concerning loaded rounds using RL-7 but the info you provided applies to RL-15 as well. I suspect if we were to look at each of the commonly used gun powders, we will find they are all classified as Explosive 1.3.

SOOOOO, that brings up the question I'm asking. If ALL smokeless gun powders are classified as Explosive 1.3, INCLUDING all of the common powders we use, and all Explosive 1.3 powders are prohibited from carriage on board commercial flights, even in loaded ammunition form, but we know the airlines DO allow carriage of said loaded ammunition, under what authorization or exemption is this carriage allowed? Thats why I keep saying we are missing a link here somewhere, otherwise we would not be able to carry ammo on planes at all!!

IMR Powders

Look under section VII.

Explosive 1.3C


https://imrpowder.com/wp-conte...gles-base-canada.pdf

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It actually says there it is FORBIDDEN to be carried in the plane??!!

Sorry Saeed............ I don't understand your question?

Look at the link Todd provided and see under transport and UN number.

Ah. Gotcha.

Assuming you mean this link:

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-con...powders_02-11-14.pdf

The 2nd page down at the top of 'Hazards Identification' shows it as Explosive 1:3 & the Air Navigation Order Carriage of Dangerous Goods Act states that no material with UN rating Explosive may travel.

EXACTLY Steve. The link you provided for the Alliant powders says the same thing. The reference that caused you to look it up was RL-7 but the info you provided applies to RL-15 as well. I suspect if we were to look at each of the commonly used gun powders, we will find they are all classified at Explosive 1.3.

SOOOOO, that brings up the question I'm asking. If ALL smokeless gun powders are classified as Explosive 1.3, INCLUDING all of the commonly used powders we use, and all Explosive 1.3 powders are prohibited from carriage on board commercial flights, even in loaded ammunition form, but we know the airlines DO allow carriage of said loaded ammunition, under what authorization or exemption is this carriage allowed? Thats why I keep saying we are missing a link here somewhere, otherwise we would not be able to carry ammo on planes at all!!

Todd

You need to forget words such as smokeless & gun powder for the purpose of this discussion because it isn't about those terms.

The UN have a classification for pretty much every material under the sun so it doesn't matter if it's gun powder, soap, bubble gum or eggs.......

What matters to the Air Navigation order (etc) is the UN rating & nothing else.

If the UN rating of ANY material is 'Explosive' + any number it may not travel on a commercial aircraft under any circumstances & if it has a UN rating of 'Flammable' + any number, it may possibly travel under certain but not all circumstances.

Assuming you're a reloader take out any pot of powder that you have & look for the UN rating....... & that will tell you the UN rating somewhere.

Failing that just use Google.

As a rule of thumb though I think you'll find most smokeless powders have a UN rating of 'Flammable' & most/probably all BP & BP substitute have 'Explosive' rating................ but that said, I obviously don't know the rating of every powder, BP and/or BP substitute so you'd need to check each one individually.

But again, I stress it's about UN rating & nothing else.

Steve, what I'm asking is for a link to a UN Hazmat classification table showing smokeless powder ANY smokeless gun powder, as something other than Explosive 1.3.

So far, every reference I've pulled up for the substance is listed at Explosive 1.3 and every reference I've found says it's prohibited from carriage on board commercial airlines.

I'm not sure what you mean by forgetting about terms such as smokeless & gun powder for the purposes of this discussion as that is exactly the material we are discussing and trying to find references to. Said another way, how am I to find the UN HAZMAT classification of smokeless gun powder without looking up smokeless gun powder? So far every UN HAZMAT chart I've found starts with "Ammunition". From there it says to reference "Cartridges for Weapons". In that category, it lists several types of ammunition. The closest description I can find under that category says "Cartridges, blank or inert projectile". Under that classification, and for that matter, all of the other "Cartridges ..." classifications state they are classified as Explosive 1.3 or Explosive 1.4. ALL 1.3 is PROHIBITED from carriage on passenger airlines and 1.4 is allowed in limited quantities on CARGO ONLY airlines.

I'm still not seeing an exemption or authorization anywhere for carrying loaded ammunition on passenger commercial carriers. I know that we do, but I can't find the actual authorization that allows for it. And by extension, so far, EVERY SINGLE BRAND AND SPECIFIC powder I've looked at so far is classified as Explosive 1.3.

You say that you think most non black powder gun powders are listed as flammable and not explosive. So far, I've found no powders classified as such.

With just a little digging:

IATA airline scheduled flight permissions and approvals

The phrase Div. 1.4S, UN 0012 or UN 0014 denotes the categories of ammunition that the IATA permits to be carried on passenger flights. In simple terms, each passenger may carry up to 5 kg of weapons cartridges of less than 19.1 mm caliber being either blanks or with solid projectile(s), in their checked baggage. The IATA published the minimum requirement for an airline for the carriage of dangerous goods in a table, where ammunition of the following nature can only be carried subject to the following permissions and approvals:

Ammunition (cartridges for weapons), securely packaged (in Div. 1.4S, UN 0012 or UN 0014 only), in quantities not exceeding 5 kg (11 lb) gross weight per person for that person's own use, excluding ammunition with explosive or incendiary projectiles. Allowances for more than one passenger must not be combined into one or more packages.

Permitted in carry on baggage: NO
Permitted in or as checked baggage: YES
Permitted on one's person: NO
The approval of the operator(s) is required: YES
The pilot in command must be informed of the location: NO

Division 1.4S
Division 1.4 refers to the specific nature of the ammunition, and the suffix "S" refers to the packing, as follows [2]

Articles and substances that present no significant hazard. This division comprises articles and substances, which present only a small hazard in the event of ignition or initiation during transport. The effects are largely confined to the package and no projection of fragments of appreciable size or range is to be expected. An external fire must not cause virtually instantaneous explosion of almost the entire contents of the package.

Note: Articles and substances in this division are placed in Compatibility Group S when they are so packed or designed that any hazardous effects arising from accidental functioning are confined within the package unless the package has been degraded by fire, in which case all blast or projection effects are limited to the extent that they do not significantly hinder fire-fighting or other emergency response efforts in the immediate vicinity of the package.

United Nations UN 0012
UN 0012 defines the category 'Cartridges for weapons, inert projectile or Cartridges, small arms', being "Ammunition consisting of a cartridge case fitted with a centre or rimfire primer and containing both a propelling charge and solid projectile(s). They are designed to be fired in weapons of calibre not larger than 19.1 mm. Shotgun cartridges of any calibre are included in this definition."

United Nations UN 0014
UN 0014 defines the category 'Cartridges for weapons, blank or Cartridges, small arms, blank'

Looking at the back of a box of cartridges, yep they are UN0012 1.4S.

Now can somebody look at the back of a box of cowboy black powder cartridges and see if we got UN0012 on the back? If so you are OK. The back of a bottle of smokeless is UN0161. So different rules. Also, only the outside shipping container must have the numbers, and in North Am we have a different system with NA numbers, but you can use UN if you wish. Confusing is an understatement.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Steve, what I'm asking is for a link to a UN Hazmat classification table showing smokeless powder ANY smokeless gun powder, as something other than Explosive 1.3.

So far, every reference I've pulled up for the substance is listed at Explosive 1.3 and every reference I've found says it's prohibited from carriage on board commercial airlines.

I'm not sure what you mean by forgetting about terms such as smokeless & gun powder for the purposes of this discussion as that is exactly the material we are discussing and trying to find references to. Said another way, how am I to find the UN HAZMAT classification of smokeless gun powder without looking up smokeless gun powder? So far every UN HAZMAT chart I've found starts with "Ammunition". From there it says to reference "Cartridges for Weapons". In that category, it lists several types of ammunition. The closest description I can find under that category says "Cartridges, blank or inert projectile". Under that classification, and for that matter, all of the other "Cartridges ..." classifications state they are classified as Explosive 1.3 or Explosive 1.4. ALL 1.3 is PROHIBITED from carriage on passenger airlines and 1.4 is allowed in limited quantities on CARGO ONLY airlines.

I'm still not seeing an exemption or authorization anywhere for carrying loaded ammunition on passenger commercial carriers. I know that we do, but I can't find the actual authorization that allows for it. And by extension, so far, EVERY SINGLE BRAND AND SPECIFIC powder I've looked at so far is classified as Explosive 1.3.

You say that you think most non black powder gun powders are listed as flammable and not explosive. So far, I've found no powders classified as such.

Todd

As I said I might be out of touch but I seriously doubt restrictions have lessened in the intervening years & my point is any material whether it be propellant or anything else is concerned & that anything the UN rates as 'Explosive' may not travel as the info from John Jackson I posted previously confirms.

Note: I don't make the rules & am only trying to explain how important it is to get it right both for aircraft safety reasons & to avoid prosecution but I guess the only way to be 1000% sure is to ask the authorities concerned.

I should actually further refine that first statement and say I'm looking for a UN HAZMAT classification table showing smokeless powder, ANY smokeless powder, or SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION (loaded) that is NOT classified as Explosive 1.3 or 1.4. So far, I'm not finding ANY UN HAZMAT classification table that allows carriage of small arms ammunition on passenger planes.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I should actually further refine that first statement and say I'm looking for a UN HAZMAT classification table showing smokeless powder, ANY smokeless powder, or SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION (loaded) that is NOT classified as Explosive 1.3 or 1.4. So far, I'm not finding ANY UN HAZMAT classification table that allows carriage of small arms ammunition on passenger planes.

As I said, I don't make the rules but am just rather trying to explain them & to make thing easier here's the post I made on page 1 & note the use of the words explosive & hazardous.



posted 02 July 2018 21:10 Hide Post
With all due respect, anyone who smuggles or tries to smuggle any kind of explosive material onto a commercial passenger aircraft in this post 9/11 world in which we live or who thinks the regulations are BS needs their head read.

Air Travel with Black Powder is Absolutely Prohibited: What You Need to Know
Air Travel with Black Powder is Absolutely Prohibited: What You Need to Know

Black powder is a Class 1.10, Packing Group II, number UN0027 “Explosive”. Air travel with black powder in your checked luggage is prohibited. Carriage on a plane is not one single offense. Rather, it constitutes multiple offenses and subjects the sportsman to multiple separate civil penalties (15 to be exact) that can each be substantial. The following is a partial quote from a Notice of Proposed Civil Penalty received by a hunter when his luggage was found to contain one container of Jim Shockey’s Gold Premium Grade Black Powder Replacement:

By reason of the above, you violated the following Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials Regulations (Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations):

1. Section 171.2(a) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation in commerce when the hazardous material was not properly classed, described, packaged, marked, labeled, and in condition for shipment as required or authorized by applicable requirements of this subchapter.

2. Sections 172.200(a) and 172.202(a)(1) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the proper shipping name prescribed for the material in Column 2 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

3. Sections 172.200(a) and 172.202(a)(2) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the hazard class or division prescribed for the material as shown in Column 3 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

4. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(3) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the identification number prescribed for the material as shown in Column 4 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

5. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(4) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the packing grouping, in Roman numerals, prescribed for the material in Column 5 of the § 172.101 Table, if any, of the material covered by the description, in the manner required by this subpart.

6. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(5) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the total quantity (by net or gross mass, capacity, or as otherwise appropriate), including the unit of measurement, of the hazardous material covered by the description, in the manner required by this subpart.

7. Sections 172.204(a) or (c)(1) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to certify that the material was offered for transportation in accordance with this subchapter by printing on the shipping paper containing the required shipping description one of the certifications set forth in this part.

8. Section 172.204(c)(2) in that you offered a hazardous material to an aircraft operator for transportation by air and failed to provide two copies of the certification required in this section.

9. Section 172.204(c)(3) in that you offered for transportation by air a hazardous material authorized for air transportation and failed to add the certification required in this section the following statement:

“I declare that all of the applicable air transport requirements have been met.”

10. Section 172.301(a) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material in a non-bulk packaging and failed to mark the package with the proper shipping name and identification number (preceded by “UN” or “NA”, as appropriate) for the material as shown in the § 172.101 Table.

11. Section 172.400(a) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material in one of the packages or containment devices listed in this subpart and failed to label the package or containment device with the labels specified for the material in the § 172.101 Table and in this subpart.

12. Section 172.600(c) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material and failed to make the emergency response information immediately available for use at all times the hazardous material was present, and failed to make such information, including an emergency response telephone number, immediately available to any government agency responding to an incident involving hazardous material or conducting an investigation which involves a hazardous material.

13. Section 172.21(a) in that you offered for transportation materials designated “Forbidden” in Column 3 of the § 172.101 Table.

14. Section 173.21(b) in that you offered for transportation forbidden explosives as defined in § 173.54 of this part.

15. Section 173.54(a) in that you offered for transportation an explosive that had not been approved in accordance with § 173.56 of this subpart.

In accordance with Section 5123(a) of Chapter 51, Title 49 of the United States Code of Transportation, 49 U.S.C§ 5123, [name of violator] is liable for a civil penalty of not less than $250, nor greater than $50,000 ($100,000 if death, serious illness, severe injury, or substantial property damage results), for each violation of the regulations.
John J. Jackson, III
Conservation Force - A Force For Wildlife Conservation, Wild Places And Our Way Of Life
cf@conservationforce.org
www.conservationforce.org
http://www.phmsa.dot.gov/porta...RCRD&vgnextfmt=print

PHMSA Interpretation #01-0216
Oct 15, 2001
PHMSA Response Letter

October 15, 2001

Mr. Larry J. Talley Reference No. 01-0216
2499 Countrywood Parkway
Cordova, TN 38018
Dear Mr. Talley:
This responds to your letter dated August 7, 2001, regarding the transportation of black powder under the U.S. Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR; 49 CFR Parts 171-180) and the International Civil Aviation Organization's Technical Instructions for the Safe Transport of Dangerous Goods by Air (ICAO Technical Instructions). Specifically, you ask if there are any exceptions that would allow for the domestic or international transportation of black powder by aircraft.
The answer is no. The air transportation of black powder is forbidden both domestically under the HMR and internationally under the ICAO Technical Instructions. Putting the black powder into either a shotgun case or brass rifle case, as you describe in your letter, and carrying it onto an aircraft, would be a willful violation of the regulations. .
I trust this satisfies your inquiry. Please contact us if we can be of further assistance.
Sincerely,

Edward T. Mazzullo
Director
Office of Hazardous Materials Standards
173.22

Steve, I'm not calling you out or pointing the finger at you. I'm on a fact finding mission pure and simple. Trying to satisfy my own curiosity.

Many of us have stated it is unlawful to load black powder into a cartridge and carry it aboard an aircraft for the purposes of later shooting it or pulling the bullets and having a supply of loose powder for a muzzleloader. We have based that advise on black powder being classified as an explosive and prohibited from passenger airline carriage. Loading it into cartridges appears to be an illegal "work around" to get by the authorities, while not lessening the dangers and risks posed. I do believe that is correct.

But as you and I have dug into this topic a bit, it appears that all of the non black powder forms of gun powder we use today are also classified as Explosives. If that is the case, then loading it into cartridges and carrying them aboard an aircraft should be illegal as well, based purely on logic. Assuming black powder and smokeless powder is both classified the same (explosives), it is the exact same act is it not?

So far, I cannot find a single brand, make, or model of non black powder propellant that isn't classified as Explosive 1.3. Again following logic, if that is the case, what makes it exempt from the very same limitations that are applied to black powder? I'm assuming there is some missing link that allows it. And if the missing link is that the act of simply loading it into a self contained cartridge makes it legal, are we 100% certain that same act is excluded as it applies to loading black powder into a cartridge.

It appears to me on the surface that we have not fully researched this topic and have made commentary based on assumptions without absolute specific references to authorizations and or exemptions. From what I've found so far, stimulated solely by this discussion, I'm not sure carrying ANY ammunition on board a passenger airline is legal, regardless of it being loaded with smokeless or black powder?

If so, at what point was the change in classification made from smokeless powder being "flammable" to "explosive" and if this is recent, is this the latest move to prevent carriage of items used and or produced from safari trips abroad? Is this the next nail in the coffin and the next action beyond the refusal of airlines to carry certain "trophies"?

Yep, you can label me concerned at the moment!

Digging some more, it appears that when you load a propellant into a cartridge case you covert it to 1.4s if properly packaged.

So, from the MSDS for the Bridger Line Throwing Gun's 45/70 blank black powder cartridges:

UN NUMBER:
UN
0014
DOT PROPER SHIPPING NAME
Cartridges for weapons, blank
or
Cartridges, small arms, blank
DOT / ADR HAZARD CLASS:
1.4S
Explosives (with no significant blast hazard)
DOT / ADR LABELS:
1.4S (exception: ORM
-
D ground)
PLACARD:
None
DOT / ADR PACKAGING GROUP:
II
HAZARD NUMBER
–
ADR:
UN 0014
ADR PROPER SHIPPING NAME
:
Cartridges for weapons, blank
or
Cartridges, small arms, blank

It looks if it is in a cartridge and is properly a UN0012 or UN0014, it doesn't matter whether it is black or smokeless. However, it must be a cartridge. I need to find a black powder cartridge manufactures MSDS and we will see.

quote:

Originally posted by Arniet:
Digging some more, it appears that when you load a propellant into a cartridge case you covert it to 1.4s if properly packaged.

So, from the MSDS for the Bridger Line Throwing Gun's 45/70 blank black powder cartridges:

UN NUMBER:
UN
0014
DOT PROPER SHIPPING NAME
Cartridges for weapons, blank
or
Cartridges, small arms, blank
DOT / ADR HAZARD CLASS:
1.4S
Explosives (with no significant blast hazard)
DOT / ADR LABELS:
1.4S (exception: ORM
-
D ground)
PLACARD:
None
DOT / ADR PACKAGING GROUP:
II
HAZARD NUMBER
–
ADR:
UN 0014
ADR PROPER SHIPPING NAME
:
Cartridges for weapons, blank
or
Cartridges, small arms, blank

It looks if it is in a cartridge and is properly a UN0012 or UN0014, it doesn't matter whether it is black or smokeless. However, it must be a cartridge. I need to find a black powder cartridge manufactures MSDS and we will see.

Now we're making some headway. Thanks for the research. So as to your comment about not mattering if it is black or smokeless if in a cartridge, THAT is the crux of the entire discussion. Will be interesting to see what you find out in this regard.

Maybe we have the missing link!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Steve, I'm not calling you out or pointing the finger at you. I'm on a fact finding mission pure and simple. Trying to satisfy my own curiosity.

Many of us have stated it is unlawful to load black powder into a cartridge and carry it aboard an aircraft for the purposes of later shooting it or pulling the bullets and having a supply of loose powder for a muzzleloader. We have based that advise on black powder being classified as an explosive and prohibited from passenger airline carriage. Loading it into cartridges appears to be an illegal "work around" to get by the authorities, while not lessening the dangers and risks posed. I do believe that is correct.

But as you and I have dug into this topic a bit, it appears that all of the non black powder forms of gun powder we use today are also classified as Explosives. If that is the case, then loading it into cartridges and carrying them aboard an aircraft should be illegal as well, based purely on logic. Assuming black powder and smokeless powder is both classified the same (explosives), it is the exact same act is it not?

So far, I cannot find a single brand, make, or model of non black powder propellant that isn't classified as Explosive 1.3. Again following logic, if that is the case, what makes it exempt from the very same limitations that are applied to black powder? I'm assuming there is some missing link that allows it. And if the missing link is that the act of simply loading it into a self contained cartridge makes it legal, are we 100% certain that same act is excluded as it applies to loading black powder into a cartridge.

It appears to me on the surface that we have not fully researched this topic and have made commentary based on assumptions without absolute specific references to authorizations and or exemptions. From what I've found so far, stimulated solely by this discussion, I'm not sure carrying ANY ammunition on board a passenger airline is legal, regardless of it being loaded with smokeless or black powder?

If so, at what point was the change in classification made from smokeless powder being "flammable" to "explosive" and if this is recent, is this the latest move to prevent carriage of items used and or produced from safari trips abroad? Is this the next nail in the coffin and the next action beyond the refusal of airlines to carry certain "trophies"?

Yep, you can label me concerned at the moment!

I also can't find any exceptions to BP or BP substitute being classified as anything other than Explosive but that makes sense due to the nature of the beast & to the best of my somewhat dated knowledge the difference between Explosive & Flammable has always been recognised by the UN & FWIW, it must be more than a decade since I first said I can see a time coming when air shipment of ANY ammo will be forbidden so yes, I agree............ It might well be the next nail in the coffin.

AS for ordinary rifle ammo as in non BP or substitute then if it has now been rated as Explosive then presumably the same restrictions apply but have not yet been enforced which takes us back to my comments about checking with the responsible authorities.

As far as I know, the only other current solution is to surface ship under the HAZMAT conditions or buy in country if available.

And we haven't even begun to address the issue of percussion caps!

Look at the MSDS for the powder. You will likely find it is "forbidden" on passenger aircraft. If you reload this into cartridges for the purpose of sneaking it on a plane, you would be guilty of a criminal offense.

No reasearch needed look at 172 and the letter Steve posted.

I posted the air travel question on the Black Powder Cartridge forum, maybe those guys know more than us casual users.

quote:

Originally posted by TNJohn:
Look at the MSDS for the powder. You will likely find it is "forbidden" on passenger aircraft. If you reload this into cartridges for the purpose of sneaking it on a plane, you would be guilty of a criminal offense.

No reasearch needed look at 172 and the letter Steve posted.

Yes, but what is the MSDS on smokeless powders also? So far, everyone of them I've looked at is listed as explosives 1.3 as well. Just like Black Powder. Not flammable but Explosive 1.3. Steve's earlier post concerning RL-7 affects ALL RL powders, including RL-15 which I know many of us big bore shooters use.

If that is the case, loading smokeless powder into a cartridge for the purpose of carriage on a plane is ALSO a criminal act.

That's what we are debating here.

Arniet appears to have found something that may indicate the act of loading powder into a cartridge may change it's classification for the purposes of airline transport. More research IS required.

quote:

Originally posted by Arniet:
I posted the air travel question on the Black Powder Cartridge forum, maybe those guys know more than us casual users.

Don't hold your breath on that.....

quote:

Originally posted by TNJohn:
Look at the MSDS for the powder. You will likely find it is "forbidden" on passenger aircraft. If you reload this into cartridges for the purpose of sneaking it on a plane, you would be guilty of a criminal offense.

No reasearch needed look at 172 and the letter Steve posted.

Let me phrase this another way TNJohn,


Can you link us to a MSDS of any smokeless powder we use today that is not listed as Explosive 1.3 ?

I wonder if anyone remembers the short lived EU or should that be EUSSR ban on transport of any ammo that occurred about 10 years ago?

This somehow has the same smell about it.

There is an exemption for certain small arms ammunition that allows carriage on a passenger aircraft. There is no exemptions for BP or substitutes on any aircraft. Putting them into cartridges is to knowingly commit a crime.

While it doesn't make sense that one can't carry at least BP substitutes it is the law. The interpretation Steve posted goes directly to the matter.

I love to be wrong on this but unless an IATA or dangerous goods shipper can provide details on an exemption I'm going with 35 years shipping dangerous goods.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I wonder if anyone remembers the short lived EU or should that be EUSSR ban on transport of any ammo that occurred about 10 years ago?

This somehow has the same smell about it.

Steve:

Wasn't that saga related to military calibers even though the accompanying rifle was "sporterized"?

If I recall, such sporting firearms had to be flown routes which by-passed the countries that had signed this moratorium or get a special clearance.

quote:

Originally posted by TNJohn:
There is an exemption for certain small arms ammunition that allows carriage on a passenger aircraft. There is no exemptions for BP or substitutes on any aircraft. Putting them into cartridges is to knowingly commit a crime.

While it doesn't make sense that one can't carry at least BP substitutes it is the law. The interpretation Steve posted goes directly to the matter.

I love to be wrong on this but unless an IATA or dangerous goods shipper can provide details on an exemption I'm going with 35 years shipping dangerous goods.

Yeah, we get it. You have been shipping dangerous goods for 35 years. More power to you!! That's NOT addressing the issue we are currently discussing. Steve's interpretation you mention does NOT go directly to the matter we are now talking about. That is, specifically, how is it we can carry smokeless powder when it is classified currently as Explosive 1.3, whether it be loaded into ammunition or loose.

You say there is an exemption for certain small arms ammunition that allows carriage on a passenger aircraft. I have been saying this must be the case ever since I joined this discussion. However, so far, no one, including me, has been able to find this "exemption" and cite a link to it. As you want to use Steve's posts as the final authority on the matter, remember even Steve said there IS NO EXEMPTION that he knows about. SOOOOO .....

Can you provide a link to this exemption.

You are focused on Steve's post concerning black powder. I'm not disputing that. I'm trying to find how it is that we can fly with smokeless powder when it too appears to be classified as Explosive 1.3, at least every type of powder I've looked up so far, including powders we all use on a regular basis such as RL-15, and further, all of the references say that classification of HAZMAT, even specifying small arms ammunition loaded with 1.3 powders are forbidden on commercial airlines.

One of the questions I'm interested in finding the answer to is whether or not this smokeless powder being classified as Explosive 1.3 is a recent change or not. If it's a recent change, we need to be aware of it, 35 years of past shipping of HAZMAT experience notwithstanding. Sorry to be snarky but you seem to be answering with snark yourself. I'm actually trying to find an indisputable answer to the issue of carriage of smokelsss powder under the current classification, not trying to one up anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I wonder if anyone remembers the short lived EU or should that be EUSSR ban on transport of any ammo that occurred about 10 years ago?

This somehow has the same smell about it.

Steve:

Wasn't that saga related to military calibers even though the accompanying rifle was "sporterized"?

If I recall, such sporting firearms had to be flown routes which by-passed the countries that had signed this moratorium or get a special clearance.

That's kind of what I remember as well. I seem to remember the 308 Win being singled out.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I wonder if anyone remembers the short lived EU or should that be EUSSR ban on transport of any ammo that occurred about 10 years ago?

This somehow has the same smell about it.

Steve:

Wasn't that saga related to military calibers even though the accompanying rifle was "sporterized"?

If I recall, such sporting firearms had to be flown routes which by-passed the countries that had signed this moratorium or get a special clearance.

That's kind of what I remember as well. I seem to remember the 308 Win being singled out.

And South Africa bans you from bringing two rifles that shoot the same ammo!

Sometimes the stupidity of airlines defies comprehension.

I was flying from Heathrow, on Gulf Air.

I had a number of rifles and pistols, all with export licenses.

One was a Colt 1911 in 45 ACP with a 22 conversion kit.

The station manager of Gulf Air refused to accept this - saying it was "munition of war" not a sporting pistol.

After all sorts of arguing, I managed to persuade him to let it on board if I changed the paper work from "Colt 1911 45 ACP with a 22 conversion kit" to "Colt 1911 22 target pistol with a 45 ACP conversion kit"!

I had a number of similar experiences with airline employees who were totally clueless.

Never had any problems with any customs people at all.