I hope this was just a tragic accident. But even if it was, this is what shoot on sight orders cause.

Let me back up. I have the utmost support for anti-poaching operations. Shoot on sight orders sound great -- tough enforcement, after all. But, they have other effects.

First, the poachers know that a shoot on sight order is in effect and they respond accordingly, shooting on sight, as well.

Second, the young men (and women in some cases now) know that the poachers know about the shoot on sight order and are likely to shoot first. So the game scouts are a bit concerned, as they should be, and are likely to shoot a bit quicker than they otherwise would.

I've hunted during a very publicized "shoot to kill order". Not a good situation, IMHO.

Arrest them. Put them in prison for a very long time. Kill them if necessary. But when we announce that we are coming out with guns blazing, so will they, and that just makes everyone quick on the trigger. Tragedies like this result.

The field poachers aren't who we need to target -- it's the Chinese!

Stated differently, we absolutely need to arrest, charge and imprison the "field poachers". But we should not lose our focus on the cause of the trade.

Zambezi society report it as happening around 3.30pm. Clearly the patrol had zero situational awareness.. If they knew their position, coupled with the fact that they were headed to their pick up point , they should have been extra careful, taken more time and identified their target.. Claudio nearly always wore long sleeved blue denim shirts.. Hardly the everyday attire for a poacher. If they had had a simple pair of binoculars this should never have happened, if the volunteers had radios compatible with the parks frequency, this should never have happened...if they had a simple $100 gps with pick up waypoint entered, this would never have happened.... Basic and simple operational procedures. This not a accident, this was a culmination of operational errors that caused this tragic incident period.

There is NO DEDICATED anti poaching unit within parks, personnel are drawn from various stations in the valley and lumped together for 4-6weeks at a time to operate as "a reaction unit" to any poaching incursions. The officers in charge are also "rotated" in on a similar deal. The head officer high ranking officials claimed at one time to "have a crack unit".... That did not even have a vehicle !!!! When shots were heard they had to try to use a nearby station vehicle to get deployed into the affected area.. If they could find one.

We repeat our statement time and time again, it keeps falling on deaf ears. Each region needs a dedicated anti poaching law enforcement unit. Fully equipped and trained, and then recurrent training at times throughout the year. Your efforts to combat this war on poaching is not going to produce results when your so called "crack unit" has limited or no transport, the teams who are deployed in the field could hv been in the past weeks leading up to deployment, been manning the gate into the park, issuing entry permits at the local station office to park visitors, checking anglers are in possession of their required permits etc etc... They are not a well trained and disciplined unit by any stretch of the imagination.

At present the bulk of parks staff are either 30-60 days in arrears on receiving their salaries, so there is zero chance of national parks putting any funds into anything. Their salary bill gobbles up more than 80% of all revenue they generate, so there is NO FUNDS spent on operations. Because there are NGO's and people like Claudio and max who volunteer, it alleviates some of these problems on the operational side, but it then just allows parks to spend what little funds become available on things that do not benefit the field operations at all.

Unless there is meaningful change in the leadership of the organization, people who are appointed on the merits,capabilities and experience in the position they hold, we're headed down the slippery slope to chaos in our conservation arena. There are people capable to sort this mess out, but if you are on the wrong side of the political divide, no matter how good you are,what years of experience you have, you will not be allowed to hold any position in the organization.

Isolated incidents such as these have occurred when separated patrols bump each other - especially when in pursuit of armed individuals.

Very sad indeed.

Zimbabwe Wildlife Conservation, well said my friend. Despite the ongoing support (funding, logistics, and equipment) provided by various wildlife conservation NGO's and safari operators, the remote ZimParks ranger stations are barely functional. Poor radio communications (if any), lack of training, cold war era AK-47's, vehicles in various states of disrepair, lack of fuel, lack of basic anti-poaching patrol equipment (including handhelds, GPS's, bino's, batteries, backpacks, tents, compasses, torches, ammo, ground pads, mosquito netting, water purification drinking straws, etc.), lack of potable water, lack of electricity, minimal food supplies, etc. What's really sad is that Mana Pools is an UNESCO designated World Heritage Site. However, despite this designation, Mana Pools receives very little (if any) financial support other than that provided by a limited number of wildlife conservation NGO's (such as the Zambezi Society) and the various safari operators (both hunting and eco-tourism). Without international intervention, the Lower Zambezi Valley is doomed to become a killing field. Once again, my condolences to Claudio and Max's family and friends. In addition, I will include the rangers involved in this terrible tragedy in my thoughts and prayers as well.

I'm not going to entertain any of the conspiracy theories, because there was no conspiracy and I have no doubt that this was just a monumental ****-up.

The truth is you need more infrastructure and coordination when you're moving out and about in places like that. Radio communications, GPS systems, reporting lines, and someone in a radio/control room monitoring where everyone is. This isn't anything new, but sadly it has taken the loss of two very good men's lives to underscore it.

As for shoot-on-sight policies, I appreciate the amount of intel that can be had (or not) from arresting poachers, but such policies are necessary in Africa for two reasons. Firstly, there are now very stiff deterrent minimum mandatory prison sentences for poaching and trafficking in a lot of African countries where there is serious conservation going on. This means the poachers/traffickers don't want to be caught even more than "usual" and will employ deadly force first. Secondly, poachers in Africa often operate in squad-sized elements and have military training and automatic weapon systems, so the response has to be graded.

All that is left to say is RIP Max and Claudio.

quote:

it is simply too hard to fathom incompetence of that magnitude.

Not if it involves Wogs...

My condolences to the family.

One must remember that there is a war going on against poachers in Zim. Friendly fire is a well known problem also by highly trained US and other troops.
I do not find it fair to condemn Parks as an hole for this incident. Would you face armed poachers daily for the salary the rangers get?

Good Hunting
Carl Frederik

quote:

I do not find it fair to condemn Parks as an hole for this incident.

There's more to this story than meets the eye and it has nothing to do with salary or friendly fire. The POS knew precisely where they were and what he or they were doing when the trigger was pulled.

I disagree vehemently with Barry here.

To take those ragged old AK's Parks carries and kill two men so quickly...this had to have been an attack with good visualization of the targets.

Not buying the accident at all!

quote:

Originally posted by Cajun1956:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:
My condolences to the family.

One must remember that there is a war going on against poachers in Zim. Friendly fire is a well known problem also by highly trained US and other troops.
I do not find it fair to condemn Parks as an hole for this incident. Would you face armed poachers daily for the salary the rangers get?

Good Hunting
Carl Frederik

But Carl, although they get paid only +/- $300 per month, they do get free room and board. The rangers and their families are provided with free lodging that was constructed by the US government (during the 1980 rhino wars) and their accommodations can best be described as "lacking modern comforts". Since they lack electricity, running water, and sewage (at most remote ranger stations), their utility bills are $0 per month. Also, ZimParks provides them with a very limited quantity of free maize (for making sudsa) and each remote ranger station is allocated three ration ele cows per year. In addition, the rangers and their families have unlimited access to free firewood for preparing their family meals. Several years ago, I visited with an OIC stationed in the Lower Zambezi Valley. I asked how they went about harvesting and recovering their rationed ele. He advised that they struggled to take advantage of ZimParks kind and benevolent offer (3 ration ele cows per year). The OIC stated that they lacked a big bore rifle to shoot the ele's and even though they managed to kill one or two with their ZimPark's issued AK-47's (assuming that they had surplus ammo), they struggled with the recovery phase because their assigned station vehicle was in need of repairs. He also advised that even if their vehicle was operable, they had no petro available to conduct either ele carcass recovery or anti-poaching patrols. So, in closing, would anyone face (between malaria episodes) former Zambian soldiers for $10/day, free lodging, free ele biltong, free firewood, free maize, etc.?

The authorities have invited retired CID detective superintendent Charlie Haley, formerly O/C forensic ballistics to take a look at the scene too. his opinion when it comes will pretty much be definitive I think.

Everybody loves a good conspiracy theory, but I just don't see it here. Claudio was doing routine voluntary support for the APUs and I don't believe he was involved at any time in anything of a cloak and dagger nature, so I can't see any motive.

Then if you look at the thick bush at the end of the rainy season, the fact that the rangers were on fresh spoor and the degree of structure they DIDN'T have, if you're on the ground here it's really easy to see how something like this could have happened.

Sorry, but I'll wait for Charlie's verdict before I go the "it was a failed alien abduction orchestrated by the Freemasons" route.

quote:

Originally posted by cow-trader:
I disagree vehemently with Barry here.

To take those ragged old AK's Parks carries and kill two men so quickly...this had to have been an attack with good visualization of the targets.

Not buying the accident at all!

Charlie is extremely knowledgable, and well respected and experienced in this field, we would say he is certainly the best qualified guy to conduct this investigation. He himself having been extensively involved in rhino anti poaching op's in the valley in the 80's. This report will be thorough and will put all the various possible scenario's and theory's being debated to rest.

On Sunday in the Zambezi Valley, the sun set on the lives of Claudio and Max Chiarelli.



Please join us on an afternoon Safari to bid farewell to them on

Friday, 18th March at 3.00 pm

At Mpata Farm, Haslemere Lane, Umwinisdale

Come in your 4 x 4’s and safari boots to honour the intrepid spirit of our beloved Claudio and Max, whose lives were so intricately entwined with the Zimbabwean bush.




Messages of condolence can be e-mailed to louise@patrickmavros.com

The fact that parks would ask Charlie to do the investigation is definately an indication that it was nothing other then a truly terrible accident. There is no one more qualified to do a thorough investigation and the fact that he is an independant with no skin in the game as such means we will have his honest opionion.

For those that have hunted early season in the valley you will know that visibility is at time less then mere feet combined with the fact that the patrol was indeed in a life and death situation as that is what following poachers is one can see how it happened. Having said that though it clearly shows what we all know and what we have been saying for ages - parks need proper training and good equipment as I believe with this this terrible tragedy would not have happened .

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
I hope this was just a tragic accident. But even if it was, this is what shoot on sight orders cause.

Let me back up. I have the utmost support for anti-poaching operations. Shoot on sight orders sound great -- tough enforcement, after all. But, they have other effects.

First, the poachers know that a shoot on sight order is in effect and they respond accordingly, shooting on sight, as well.

Second, the young men (and women in some cases now) know that the poachers know about the shoot on sight order and are likely to shoot first. So the game scouts are a bit concerned, as they should be, and are likely to shoot a bit quicker than they otherwise would.

I've hunted during a very publicized "shoot to kill order". Not a good situation, IMHO.

Arrest them. Put them in prison for a very long time. Kill them if necessary. But when we announce that we are coming out with guns blazing, so will they, and that just makes everyone quick on the trigger. Tragedies like this result.

The field poachers aren't who we need to target -- it's the Chinese!

Exactly right.

My deepest sympathy and condolences to family and friends of the Chiarellis. Just an awful thing that could and should have been prevented.

What a tragedy. My sincere condolences to the family.

Charley Haley is the ballistic forensic authority in Zimbawe ,he was one of the best friends of the late Don Heath aka Ganyana .He will know the truth in a few time.

quote:

Originally posted by cow-trader:

To take those ragged old AK's Parks carries and kill two men so quickly...this had to have been an attack with good visualization of the targets.

Not buying the accident at all!

Some other things that make me question the "accident":
1) 99.9 % of the poachers in Zimbabwe are black- the two victims are white;
2) 99.9% of poachers are either on foot or on bikes- the two white victims are standing next to a white 4X4 when shot;
3) There are SIX black game scouts with the two white victims, and yet they come out unscathed;
4) Zimbabwe is run by a racist, thieving murderer who either imprisons or murders his adversaries. The victims were honest, ethical white PH's who were trying to combat lawless native poachers. Whose side do you think Uncle Bob was on?

Most of the conspiracy theories are from folks, and no disrespect intended, have visited Africa but not lived there, and don't really know the bush at this time of they year or had their boots on the ground on anti-poaching work.

Forensic ballistic guru Charlie Haley examined the bodies, and while I haven't spoken to Charlie directly, a friend of mine showed me a WhatsApp he had received from Charlie: "I examined the bodies and all I saw tied in with the official report." While I was speaking with him he phoned Charlie, who followed up by saying he would not be doing an official report unless asked to, and added that all of the wounds indicated the bullets had been tumbling which is consistent with passing through thick bush and not carefully-aimed fire.

A sad, tragic accident.

quote:

To take those ragged old AK's Parks carries and kill two men so quickly...this had to have been an attack with good visualization of the targets.

Not buying the accident at all!

Agreed, especially when we hear of "tumbling" bullets.
Maybe Charlie wisely sought and found the right answer.

Charlie Hayley is a man of principle - he would never "find the right answer" as you said . I find it interesting that all those that actually have some first hand info on the terrible tragedy see it for what it was , an aweful accident , but those that have NO info say otherwise !

quote:

Originally posted by Barry Groulx:


if you're on the ground here it's really easy to see how something like this could have happened.

Barry,

If it is "easy" to see this happening, why would a traveling hunter want to hunt in Zim??

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Charlie Hayley is a man of principle - he would never "find the right answer" as you said . I find it interesting that all those that actually have some first hand info on the terrible tragedy see it for what it was , an aweful accident , but those that have NO info say otherwise !

Buzz,

I have a lot of respect for you and your opinions, but this is more than an awful accident. This is criminal. If the roles had been reversed. If two white PH's had gunned down two black game rangers, standing around a vehicle on road....The Zim government would not be calling this an accident. Someone would be going to jail.

This sure does not get me excited about going back to Zim, especially with my son.

quote:

Originally posted by Bud Meadows:
1) 99.9 % of the poachers in Zimbabwe are black- the two victims are white;

So the other .1% is Theo Bronkhorst?

The two rangers are actually in jail pending full investigation - so I don't think this is a colour question here and also shows how serious national parks and the authorities are taking this .

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Charlie Hayley is a man of principle - he would never "find the right answer" as you said . I find it interesting that all those that actually have some first hand info on the terrible tragedy see it for what it was , an aweful accident , but those that have NO info say otherwise !

Buzz,

I have a lot of respect for you and your opinions, but this is more than an awful accident. This is criminal. If the roles had been reversed. If two white PH's had gunned down two black game rangers, standing around a vehicle on road....The Zim government would not be calling this an accident. Someone would be going to jail.

This sure does not get me excited about going back to Zim, especially with my son.

TBD,

This is exactly the hysteria that can stem from rumour and I have yet to come across an incident that has put a visiting hunter's life at risk. Unsubstantiated conjecture can be quite damaging and the Zim boys need all the support that we can offer during these difficult times.

1, one of the main reasons for this happening was the thick bush at this time of the year; that's why the rainy season isn't the hunting season, 2, you can't apply a first world normal to Africa. It doesn't fit. 3, why go to Zim? Why go out the front door in the morning? World's a scary place and stuff like this does happen.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by Barry Groulx:


if you're on the ground here it's really easy to see how something like this could have happened.

Barry,

If it is "easy" to see this happening, why would a traveling hunter want to hunt in Zim??

Don't change ALL the pieces on the board. How about saying "what if two white RANGERS and gunned down two black PHs?" And yes, there would probably have been a lot more stink in the media, but Zim has a law that indemnifies law enforcement in circumstances like this.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Charlie Hayley is a man of principle - he would never "find the right answer" as you said . I find it interesting that all those that actually have some first hand info on the terrible tragedy see it for what it was , an aweful accident , but those that have NO info say otherwise !

Buzz,

I have a lot of respect for you and your opinions, but this is more than an awful accident. This is criminal. If the roles had been reversed. If two white PH's had gunned down two black game rangers, standing around a vehicle on road....The Zim government would not be calling this an accident. Someone would be going to jail.

This sure does not get me excited about going back to Zim, especially with my son.

I'd have to agree. The use of the word "poacher" is a gross oversimplification. Actual trigger-men on the ground are a smaller part of the problem than the cartels that drive them. And therein you have whites, blacks and Asians and maybe even ISIS and Al-Qaeda themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by AilsaWheels:

quote:

Originally posted by Bud Meadows:
1) 99.9 % of the poachers in Zimbabwe are black- the two victims are white;

So the other .1% is Theo Bronkhorst?

quote:

Originally posted by Barry Groulx:
1, one of the main reasons for this happening was the thick bush at this time of the year; that's why the rainy season isn't the hunting season, 2, you can't apply a first world normal to Africa. It doesn't fit. 3, why go to Zim? Why go out the front door in the morning? World's a scary place and stuff like this does happen.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by Barry Groulx:


if you're on the ground here it's really easy to see how something like this could have happened.

Barry,

If it is "easy" to see this happening, why would a traveling hunter want to hunt in Zim??

Barry,

That is bullshit. I've hunted in Africa in every month from March to November. I've done early season hunts. I've experienced the thick bush, the rain, hunting trucks stuck in the mud, buffalo at 5 paces. The thick bush is NO EXCUSE!!! If these idiot rangers didn't have the brains and balls to visually identify the target, they should not have been firing automatic weapons at voices (probably speaking Italian). And I don't want to hear that this is different... it's the 3rd world....or ....they're just poor africans. Bullshit.

Even in Zim, you can't have government employees running around the bush firing off automatic weapons at VOICES!!! It is just that simple.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Charlie Hayley is a man of principle - he would never "find the right answer" as you said . I find it interesting that all those that actually have some first hand info on the terrible tragedy see it for what it was , an aweful accident , but those that have NO info say otherwise !

Buzz,

I have a lot of respect for you and your opinions, but this is more than an awful accident. This is criminal. If the roles had been reversed. If two white PH's had gunned down two black game rangers, standing around a vehicle on road....The Zim government would not be calling this an accident. Someone would be going to jail.

This sure does not get me excited about going back to Zim, especially with my son.

TBD,

This is exactly the hysteria that can stem from rumour and I have yet to come across an incident that has put a visiting hunter's life at risk. Unsubstantiated conjecture can be quite damaging and the Zim boys need all the support that we can offer during these difficult times.

Unsubstantiated conjecture.....this could have just as easily been a traveling hunter and PH standing around a broke down or stuck in the mud hunting truck. When rangers blindly shoot at voices, this could happen again. They need more training than, how to pull the trigger. If they can't get that, they should not be running around the bush with automatic weapons.

http://allafrica.com/stories/201604020265.html



Zimbabwe: Minister Muchinguri-Kashiri Defends Rangers in Fatal Shooting Incident

ENVIRONMENT Minister, Oppah Muchinguri-Kashiri, says the recent killing of two Italians in the Mana Pools area was a regrettable accident which should not tarnish the image of state rangers.

Last month, a father and son of Italian origin were shot dead by rangers while helping in an anti-poaching operation in the Mana Pools.

Cloudio Chiarelli, 50, and his son Massimiliano, who was in his twenties, were helping anti-poaching efforts when they were accidentally shot by rangers who mistook them for poachers.

In a separate incident five days ago, a game warden was found dead, naked in Gonarezhou National Park.

Speaking to journalists in Harare Wednesday at the official opening of the Southern African Regional Climate Outlook Forum (SARCOF), Muchinguri-Kashiri said the government regretted the loss of lives.

"I am glad you mention rangers. The shooting was an accident; regrettably we lost lives and this was after poachers had been reported and people panicked and something could have influenced that panic.

"We are trying to check if there are any loopholes but our rangers are doing a marvellous job though we might need to look at training and increase their (rangers) numbers," said Muchinguri-Kashiri.



The minister, however, said the government should be commended for the work it has been doing with regards poaching as compared to other countries.

"Globally, we have done very well. Remember poaching increases around this time of the year as bushes are thick. Even if there was communication, I would not want to believe the shooting had anything to do with lack of training.

"We will continue manning our parks on the Zimbabwean side because on the Zambian side there are villages and people need to be protected. Some of our boarders are porous," the minister added.

Muchinguri-Kashiri reiterated the need for engagement between government and the Zambezi Wildlife Conservancy society to find ways to end poaching without harming people, saying security and intelligence issues needed careful handling.

She said government might need to employ informers on the issue of poaching.

Muchinguri-Kashiri's comments come at a time when sceptics think the shooting of the Italians may have been political, saying their killing at close range has not been satisfactorily explained.

the minister's comments are 10 lbs of bullshit in a 5 lb bag. "might" need more training????

No argument there at all. I'm not saying that correct SOPs were followed, because obviously they weren't. I'm not saying that the situation necessarily called for lethal force, because I wasn't there. What I am saying is that it wasn't a conspiracy or a "hit", it was a tragic accident. The real need is for a lot more intensive training and standardised SOPs, and all the conspiracy theories focus attention on the wrong issues.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by Barry Groulx:
1, one of the main reasons for this happening was the thick bush at this time of the year; that's why the rainy season isn't the hunting season, 2, you can't apply a first world normal to Africa. It doesn't fit. 3, why go to Zim? Why go out the front door in the morning? World's a scary place and stuff like this does happen.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by Barry Groulx:


if you're on the ground here it's really easy to see how something like this could have happened.

Barry,

If it is "easy" to see this happening, why would a traveling hunter want to hunt in Zim??

Barry,

That is bullshit. I've hunted in Africa in every month from March to November. I've done early season hunts. I've experienced the thick bush, the rain, hunting trucks stuck in the mud, buffalo at 5 paces. The thick bush is NO EXCUSE!!! If these idiot rangers didn't have the brains and balls to visually identify the target, they should not have been firing automatic weapons at voices (probably speaking Italian). And I don't want to hear that this is different... it's the 3rd world....or ....they're just poor africans. Bullshit.

Even in Zim, you can't have government employees running around the bush firing off automatic weapons at VOICES!!! It is just that simple.

quote:

Barry,

That is bullshit. I've hunted in Africa in every month from March to November. I've done early season hunts. I've experienced the thick bush, the rain, hunting trucks stuck in the mud, buffalo at 5 paces. The thick bush is NO EXCUSE!!! If these idiot rangers didn't have the brains and balls to visually identify the target, they should not have been firing automatic weapons at voices (probably speaking Italian). And I don't want to hear that this is different... it's the 3rd world....or ....they're just poor africans. Bullshit.

Even in Zim, you can't have government employees running around the bush firing off automatic weapons at VOICES!!! It is just that simple.

Damn right! - And for someone firing at voices, were pretty accurate as well!