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Absolutely! "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Shoot a cape buffalo. If it dies, the velocity was adequate. If it kills you it wasn't adequate, use more next time. "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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Whitworth, When you get a chance can you tell me where the A-Frame bullets hit the buffalo. Thanks, Brian IHMSA BC Provincial Champion and Perfect 40 Score, Unlimited Category, AAA Class. | |||
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Or you used the wrong bullet.... Or you placed your shot poorly.... Or.... Just asked you to clarify your statement and I get sarcasm instead. Oh well. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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The .454 was a shoulder shot that passed through both shoulders and exited. The .460 was shot low in the shoulder and ended up in the offside hide. The bullet that didn't exit encountered heavier bone, but still broke everything in its path. Below is a picture of the recovered bullet (from the .460) and a photo of the bull.   "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Whitworth, That is good info! And thanks for the Photos of the bullets. I would have like to have seen both those kills. POI Velocity of 1500+ velocity. Plenty of expansion and still plenty of penetration. !. maybe, low velocity, is our friend with .45+ cal bullets. I used low velocity with .500+ cal., for a rifle, on cape buffalo. Terminal velocity of estimated 1550 fps to 1800 fps with excellent one shot kills and plenty of penetration. (.500 cal to .577 cal) Several were "dead right there." 2. Swift A-Frame. "As advertised"! Your photo looks just like the bullet in their advertising. How often does that happen? Perfect balance of expansion, retained mass, penetration. I can imagine the wound channel was impressive. I am going to try some Pistol A-Frames in my .500 cals. Also, what a perfect bullet for my grandson in his .357 Rem Maximus! 158 grain at 2250 fps. ( Lower priced than CEB and NF, so he can experiment ( jack around) with them a bit.) That is a nice looking old white faced bull. Looks like the cats have had a go at him. Old white scars on his face. I also got a chuckle, respectfully of course, out of the wide range of pants and foot gear worn by the hunters! Good looking/happy/satisfied hunters. I am jealous. I have just one more question, please. Then I will give it a rest, I promise. How far did the buffalo go after they were hit? Important detail to me. I honestly appreciate the detailed info. I'll bet the other do too. I feel like I was there with you, and wish I was. Thanks, Brian IHMSA BC Provincial Champion and Perfect 40 Score, Unlimited Category, AAA Class. | |||
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OOPS ! One more question. What kind/make of scope is on the pistol? Thanks again! Brian IHMSA BC Provincial Champion and Perfect 40 Score, Unlimited Category, AAA Class. | |||
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Saeed, Agreed! Reading and hearing about broad head arrow kills is exactly the thing that got me thinking and re-learning, about my old concept of terminal bullet performance. Those bow hunter can sure put a moose in the ground without any fuss. Brian IHMSA BC Provincial Champion and Perfect 40 Score, Unlimited Category, AAA Class. | |||
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IHMSA BC Provincial Champion and Perfect 40 Score, Unlimited Category, AAA Class. | |||
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I shot those two. The 454 buff was hit once through the shoulders. We had multiple hunters after buffalo and lion primarily. My son was hunting blue wildebeest with his 460 in a stand and a large large buff came in and i dont believe in looking a gift horse in the mouth so i shot it. The buff ran about 150 yards and lay down with his buddies. He was in bad shape. We stalked in for a second shot and the other buffs “hooked” him up and as he ran the junior ph hit him in the paunch going away with a 458 lott towards the offside shoulder. He was down and basically dead in another 150 yds. Funny thing was the jr ph thought his 458 lott bullet killed it. Turns out at the skinning shed the 458 bullet had come apart and didnt penetrate more than about a foot as the bullet came apart into several small pieces. My lowly revolver passed through the shoulders. On approach i put a barnes buster though the brisket and out the back and then due to a bet, once the buff was set up for pics i shot one through the boss and out through the head at its base. The second buff was found on a small mt goat type trail on some cliffs. He charged us 3x’s without provocation. We were up the cliff face where he couldnt get up at us but bobby my ph didnt want it shot there due to the tough recovery. So we pushed it down into a flat bw two ridges. We expected another charge but the buff turned to go up some higher cliffs. I shot him at 154 yrds trotting off right thru the low shoulders and he dropped there and i put in a finisher as we approached. Buff never went 5 feet. All in all im at 26 big ober 1000lb bovine with a revolver. A couple with my kiddos as well. The revolvers do a number on them and i want for no more power or penetration. Ive also taken a few biggies with rifles as well. Both will obviously do the job but as was shown in my first cape buff kill, a revolver with a premium bullet is better than the biggest rifles with mediocre bullets! As for the footwear. Those are cabelas turtle skins snake boots. Very comfortable, stops the nastiest bites, but mostly the keep thorns from catching ya which is important in africa. | |||
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What bullet was the PH shooting in the 458? Obviously not 500 cup point solids or TSX. Those work great. Good bullet Is key for sure. Arrows kill but are you going to stop a charge with one or turn a buff at close range? I’d say no but they will kill eventually with the right shot placement White Mountains Arizona | |||
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Thanks for the info trademark. Much appreciate! Brian IHMSA BC Provincial Champion and Perfect 40 Score, Unlimited Category, AAA Class. | |||
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It was some cup and core bullet of unknown origins. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Cup and Core bullet that didn't hold together? I've got a good guess as to which one that probably was. | |||
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You and I both! :-) "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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I could kill a buffalo with a .30-06 quite easily, would have to choose shot carefully, but it doesn't mean it's the right tool for the job. | |||
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Claimed for 22" barrel: 45-70 Magnum - Lever Gun Ammo 430 gr. LBT-LFN @ 1,925 fps/M.E.3,537 ft lbs Author was using 18.5" barrel. Also claimed at Buffalo Bore site: 1920 fps -- Marlin 1895, 22-inch barrel 1879 fps -- Marlin 1895 Guide Gun, 18.5-inch barrel Only about 12 fps loss of MV for each inch of barrel shortening. Elmer would approve of either of those rifles. "It's the bullet, stupid." That is priceless.  Rip ... | |||
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Rip, Good post. I am hunting cape buffalo with the same performance, weight and bullet, but in .500 cal. These old big bores are fun. IHMSA BC Provincial Champion and Perfect 40 Score, Unlimited Category, AAA Class. | |||
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We are getting significantly more than adequate penetration from our handguns at much lower velocities than a .45/70 rifle. Personally I would have chosen a different bullet to use than a hardcast bullet, but how does that make the .45/70 the wrong tool for the job? It’s all about the bullet and has always been all about the bullet. The rest is mythology that has been repeated so often it has become the “standard.” As I mentioned previously, my first shot in the chest of a Cape buffalo last year netted seven feet of penetration (even passing all he way through the rumen). My bullets left the muzzle at a scorching 1,400 fps. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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In this day and age I cannot believe that this statement or belief is still upheld ? A arrow like any other conventional passive kinetic energy missile creates wounds or penetrates targets by means of energy transfer ! and no other means ! A arrow shot from a bow is actually very efficient at the task of creating wounds ! Purely from a perspective that it has only a small amount of energy at its disposal. The driver of its ability to wound lies in its very large sectional density. If we consider that its presenting surface area in direction of motion is that very sharp knife edge. The act of cutting tissue with a knife is also because of energy transfer. a hypodermic needle used for injection operates in the same way. A injection needle is even more efficient ! Kinetic energy of a 400 gr arrow at 240 fps = 51.7 ft pounds The arrow will loose about 1.57 ft pounds for every 10 yards of flight At a 60 yards the arrow has a impact kinetic energy of 41.50 ft pounds. The energy density of the arrow is very big In spite of this small amount of energy a arrow will penetrate at least its full length in a viscoelastic target But we can step it up and make our arrow from a very dense metal (depleted uranium) as in a typical Anti tank round (APSFD-T) Now the impact kinetic energy of the arrow is 12.1 million joules of energy! Go one further: The theoretical Project Thor and the idea of kinetic energy bombardment. This was the logical continuation of the flechettes ( metal arrows )dropped from aircraft in trenches in WW1 and the "lazy dog" bomblets used by the USA in Vietnam. How about a 24,000 pound telephone pole made from depleted uranium "dropped" from space to earth impacting at Mach 10 and transferring the same amount on energy as a 26 kiloton nuclear device (without the radioactive fall out) The crater and devastation created by this impact would be massive not speak of the depth of penetration ! The problem is lifting one of these "poles" into space with go with a price ticket of 230 million dollars For comparison the Hiroshima bomb was a 15 kiloton ( 63 Terajoules energy) and the Nagasaki bomb 20 kiloton or 84 terajoules energy ! The modern rail guns used by the US Navy will shoot a 25 pound passive kinetic energy depleted uranium rod with a impact energy of 32 million joules of energy. There is no difference in the injury mechanics between David's rock launched from a slingshot, a baseball, a arrow, bullet, grenade or bomb fragment..... or a passive kinetic energy tank round fired from a Abrams tank gun. ! They all do damage by transferring energy to the target ! | |||
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Lazy dog bomb: Vietnam 45 cal bullet dropped from an aeroplane  similar WW1 Flechettes were dropped en masse from aircraft The wound ballistics of these can be found in old military medicine papers a more modern version The US hydra Rocket. These arrows are fired from a apache helicopter  12 gauge Shotgun version  The wound ballistics of these expanded on in Knuehbeuhls book Some more WW 1 Flechettes   | |||
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Lazy Dog Bomb: 19 grams (.45-caliber/293.2 grains), about 1.75" long, terminal velocity 700 fps, anti-personnel, pointed steel, fin-stabilized. Delivered in various ways including hand thrown from buckets by crewmen on helicopters and C-130 aircraft. Inert, no explosives. Not a tiny dumb bomb. It's the bullet, stupid!  Non-explosive kinetic energy bombs.  https://www.assaultweb.net/for...ember-these-from-nam | |||
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Which goes a long way to help explain why a 1.7 lb piece of foam the size of a loaf of bread traveling at an estimated 580 mph when it hit the Reinforced Carbon Carbon leading edge of the space shuttle Columbia led to it's eventual destruction. Velocity does matter. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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How is that different to a 400 gr at 2150 fps? Is that not very similar to a 450/400 NE or a 404 Jeffery?
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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A solid in the brain from a 45-70 should do the deed, but using such guns is just a dangerous stunt IMO and yes its been done, and everyone I heard of or know of was a farce, a long and possibly dangerous blood trail sort of hunt.but Im not the caliber cop so do as you wish. if its legal! and the outfitter agrees. He will back you up with a proper buffalo gun.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Yeah atkinson, an over zealous junior ph though he would save us from a revolver as the buff lay there dying. Before i could put another in he decided to end it with a proper buff rifle and fired a 458 lott into the paunch on a trajectory to the offside shoulder while the buff was lying there. Got about 8-10 inches into the paunch where the bullet seperated and did nothing. Buff got adrenalized and ran off another couple hundred yrds and died. My lowly aframe passed through the shoulders and killed it, his just pissed it off. The only reason african Hunters kept going bigger is because of the penchant for using crappy cup and core bullets and those ever pitiful round nose solids. Its the bullet, not the cartridge and a properly loaded 45/70 is not a stunt. It is a damn proper buffalo rifle and with the wrong bullets its no worse than the aforementioned 458 lott with crappy bullets. In the article i was shocked at the use of hardcast bullets. I would expect a well known knowledgeable writer to know better. Oh well!! | |||
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Riddle me this, Ray. If the revolvers some of us use exhibit way more than acceptable penetration, how is a .45/70 with its superior paper ballistics (to our revolvers) somehow a stunt? I got seven feet of straight line penetration on a chest shot that traveled all the way through the rumen. And that bullet left the barrel at 1,400 fps... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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If using a 45/70 a stunt what’s a archery hunt then? White Mountains Arizona | |||
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Extreme stunt? :-) "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Ray, You and I often agree, but not this time. Having been a part of such "stunts" I assure you that there was NEVER any doubt whether our shooters, rifles or ammo was up to the task. My .405 WCF with 400 grain Woodleigh bullets completely fooled a Cape buff into thinking the shot was from a 450/400!!!! Similarly, our bullet testing Safari fooled elephant, Cape buff, leopard and plains game into thinking that they had been shot with expensive bolt action or double rifles rather than .45-70 and .45-90 1886 lever guns. Heck, ours did not even have scope sights! How could they possibly kill a buffalo or ele? Here you go- you are still young enough for a lever gun safari - go try it yourself and you will see for your self. I can even recommend outfitters and PHs that have such experience with lever gun hunters. There are more than you know. Heck, I will even loan you my 1886 .45-90 with proven ammo (450 grain Kodiak FMJ at 2150 fps) if you like. However, if you break it, you fix it.  PS we still agree on most gun and hunting things.  PPS A good shot hunting DG with the proper lever gun and ammo is more safe that using an "approved" African round and being a poor shot. You can bet that most folk that hunt African game with lever guns or hand guns are sure of their abilities and equipment! NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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Ray, One more suggestion if I may; Read this article by "Paco", another been-there-done-that guy. From Elves to Elephants http://www.leverguns.com/artic...o/4570_leverguns.htm enjoy! NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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Not sure who wrote it but in African literature somewhere a guy kills an elephant with a 22LR. No one believed him so wagered to do it again and did. It’s all about shot placement anyway. I would not feel under gunned with a 45-70. Would I take one? Nah I got a 505 to test out, as well as a 470 and now a 500 nitro. lol! But maybe someday White Mountains Arizona | |||
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Thats why i drug the revolvers in here with whitworth. They are brutally effective and the leverguns are even more so when properly loaded. More than enough and handily out of stunt territory. | |||
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It was actually the game wardens who stopped a guy on a bicycle with a 22LR. They has been trying to catch a poacher for a while with no clue. Finally the guy admitted to shooting elephants in the arm pit, through the heart. He had to do it again to prove it.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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What book was that in? An Englishman right? White Mountains Arizona | |||
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Will a 22lr really penetrate through an elephant's side between the ribs and into the chest cavity? Certainly it will on a human but we are no comparison. | |||
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The 22 elephant in the "armpit" comes from one of Capstick's books and is pure BS ! You can Mythbust this one purely on grounds of numerous validated penetration tests done with the 22 LR. Having said that the 22 LR is arguably from a ballistics perspective one of the most efficient cartridges out there ! Using a mere 2 gr of propellant there is a hell of a lot this little cartridge brings to the table hence its popularity. Though ballistically efficient the one thing it does not bring to the table is effectiveness ( ie the ability to create a wound ) Hence its banning in many parts of the world as a hunting cartridge. | |||
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To some aficionados, Capstick was the Messiah of the hunting fraternity; anything he said or wrote about his hunting exploits were of Biblical value.  | |||
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His books are entertaining and easy to read. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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Head shots with 22 LR on Sambar, wild boar and even leopard are well known in India. There is a well documented tiger shot with a 22 Hi-Power on SE Asia. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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