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Best broad head for cape buffalo?
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What is the best broad head for a cape buffalo. #80 compound. Thanks, Brian
 
Posts: 3158 | Location: Kamloops, BC | Registered: 09 November 2015Reply With Quote
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I can tell you what’s not good, that’s an Ashby 300 grain single bevel. I and a friend used them. Poor penetration on Cape buffalo, due to the tips of the broadhead breaking off.


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Posts: 2492 | Location: Minnesota | Registered: 08 December 2006Reply With Quote
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dfo6, Thanks, I have actually read the same thing.
 
Posts: 3158 | Location: Kamloops, BC | Registered: 09 November 2015Reply With Quote
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VPA ( Vantage Point Archery) Single or double bevel
 
Posts: 7832 | Registered: 16 August 2000Reply With Quote
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Either the VPA or Cutthroat single bevel. I’ve had, and seen, the Grizzlystik heads break on big animals.
 
Posts: 428 | Registered: 25 October 2010Reply With Quote
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Brian- Check out the Silver Flame by German Kinetics. Pretty sure this is the gold standard.
 
Posts: 1290 | Registered: 17 February 2002Reply With Quote
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Thanks for everyone's help. Much appreciated.

Crane, Thanks. I have read the same thing as you say about German Kinetics. Also Iron Will.

Brian
 
Posts: 3158 | Location: Kamloops, BC | Registered: 09 November 2015Reply With Quote
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Whale harpoon? Big Grin

Grizz


When the horse has been eliminated, human life may be extended an average of five or more years.
James R. Doolitle

I think they've been misunderstood. Timothy Tredwell
 
Posts: 1027 | Location: Central Alberta, Canada | Registered: 20 July 2019Reply With Quote
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Grizz, I will make a note. chuckle/ Brian
 
Posts: 3158 | Location: Kamloops, BC | Registered: 09 November 2015Reply With Quote
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I can confirm issues with older 300gr Ashbys.
I bought a number of packs around ten years ago and hunted Elephant in Zimbabwe with good results. I then took the same heads to Mozambique this past September and had one snap in half while practicing at the camp broadhead butt (foam block). I cannot explain how or why it broke but it certainly did not fill me with confidence!!! I shot the elephant with a 90lbs Bowtech Tribute and 1100gr Easton dangerous game arrow but the broadhead broke when powered by my 80lbs Bowtech Invasion and a 900gr Easton.

JCHB
 
Posts: 361 | Location: KZN province South Africa | Registered: 24 July 2009Reply With Quote
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Look at Iron Will broad heads. They make a terrific deer/elk critter type of BH. I believe they make a heavier dangerous game head also.


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Posts: 2492 | Location: Minnesota | Registered: 08 December 2006Reply With Quote
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df06, Thanks, Brian
 
Posts: 3158 | Location: Kamloops, BC | Registered: 09 November 2015Reply With Quote
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Your broadhead really is secondary to the type of shaft you'll be putting the broadhead on. If you aren't shooting like a Full Metal Jacket shaft or something equivalent that will get you up around 600 grains total with a 125 grain head, then you're bringing a knife to a gun fight. You're already bringing a knife to a gun fight and that's fine but bring a spear and not a pocket knife.

I used the Iron Will 125 grain broadhead on a 5MM Easton Full metal Jacket shaft. My total arrow weight was right around 605 grains. Yeah, its like chucking a spear but with big game like that, its better than flinging tooth picks. Your total arrow weight and ability to penetrate is everything. Anyway, I shot a huge Yukon Moose with it and had two easy pass thrus where the arrow stuck in the ground half way about 20' past the Bull. One of the arrows struck ribs too.

It isn't just about the broadhead when you are hunting an animal like that with a bow, its about the total arrow setup.
 
Posts: 175 | Location: Savannah, GA | Registered: 13 June 2006Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by SkyJacker:
Your broadhead really is secondary to the type of shaft you'll be putting the broadhead on. If you aren't shooting like a Full Metal Jacket shaft or something equivalent that will get you up around 600 grains total with a 125 grain head, then you're bringing a knife to a gun fight. You're already bringing a knife to a gun fight and that's fine but bring a spear and not a pocket knife.

I used the Iron Will 125 grain broadhead on a 5MM Easton Full metal Jacket shaft. My total arrow weight was right around 605 grains. Yeah, its like chucking a spear but with big game like that, its better than flinging tooth picks. Your total arrow weight and ability to penetrate is everything. Anyway, I shot a huge Yukon Moose with it and had two easy pass thrus where the arrow stuck in the ground half way about 20' past the Bull. One of the arrows struck ribs too.

It isn't just about the broadhead when you are hunting an animal like that with a bow, its about the total arrow setup.


I hope that most know a heavy arrow, with a high FOC is necessary when hunting large game. 600 grains is on the very light end of a heavy arrow, and for buffalo, waaaaay light. Additionally, to get the kind of FOC, and penetrating power necessary, a 125 grain head is also woefully light.


"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man." - Joe Biden
 
Posts: 1784 | Registered: 28 September 2006Reply With Quote
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Woefully light? I have never shot a Cape buffalo so I’m out of my element. I shot through a Yukon moose and the arrow stuck halfway in the ground 15 yards on the other side of him.

Heavy FOC is great to a point but you start getting in the 20% range with a 700 grain arrow your flight characteristics and groupings are pure garbage. Don’t sacrifice accuracy and flight for FOC.
 
Posts: 175 | Location: Savannah, GA | Registered: 13 June 2006Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by SkyJacker:
Woefully light? I have never shot a Cape buffalo so I’m out of my element. I shot through a Yukon moose and the arrow stuck halfway in the ground 15 yards on the other side of him.

Heavy FOC is great to a point but you start getting in the 20% range with a 700 grain arrow your flight characteristics and groupings are pure garbage. Don’t sacrifice accuracy and flight for FOC.


Yes, buffalo heads typically run 250-350 grains. Many shoot 800-900 grain total arrow weight. I agree, for moose and elk, 600 is good. I like a 125 broadhead, although I’ve got another 125 in insert/outsert up there as well. Yeah, I don’t buy the 20% either, I’ve got mine at around 15%-16%.


"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man." - Joe Biden
 
Posts: 1784 | Registered: 28 September 2006Reply With Quote
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How are you making that arrow? I've tried to build my own arrows and I cannot find anything that remotely comes close to what you just described.
 
Posts: 175 | Location: Savannah, GA | Registered: 13 June 2006Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by SkyJacker:
How are you making that arrow? I've tried to build my own arrows and I cannot find anything that remotely comes close to what you just described.


Back in the day guys used to put one arrow inside of another. Like a 2020 inside a 2315 or something. I forget which outside/inside diameters work, but that’s what some guys did.
 
Posts: 7387 | Registered: 31 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by SkyJacker:
How are you making that arrow? I've tried to build my own arrows and I cannot find anything that remotely comes close to what you just described.


I use a 11 grain per inch arrow, with a 125 grain two blade fixed head. The insert weighs 75 grains, and a stainless outsert from ethics archery, can’t remember exactly what it is, but I want to say 50 grains. With fletching, a small wrap, and lighted nocks, I’m well over 600. FYI, ethics makes a whole slew of inserts and outserts to get you wherever you want to go with point weight. Check them out.

If you’re talking about the 900 grainers, a 15+ grain per inch arrow, with a 315 grain head and not that heavy insert/outsert will get you there.


"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man." - Joe Biden
 
Posts: 1784 | Registered: 28 September 2006Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by BaxterB:
quote:
Originally posted by SkyJacker:
How are you making that arrow? I've tried to build my own arrows and I cannot find anything that remotely comes close to what you just described.


Back in the day guys used to put one arrow inside of another. Like a 2020 inside a 2315 or something. I forget which outside/inside diameters work, but that’s what some guys did.


So many folks today try and make that bow as fast as possible, using arrows weighing 7 or 8 grains per inch. Do you remember how much those 2315’s weighed per inch?


"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man." - Joe Biden
 
Posts: 1784 | Registered: 28 September 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by pointblank:
quote:
Originally posted by SkyJacker:
How are you making that arrow? I've tried to build my own arrows and I cannot find anything that remotely comes close to what you just described.


I use a 11 grain per inch arrow, with a 125 grain two blade fixed head. The insert weighs 75 grains, and a stainless outsert from ethics archery, can’t remember exactly what it is, but I want to say 50 grains. With fletching, a small wrap, and lighted nocks, I’m well over 600. FYI, ethics makes a whole slew of inserts and outserts to get you wherever you want to go with point weight. Check them out.

If you’re talking about the 900 grainers, a 15+ grain per inch arrow, with a 315 grain head and not that heavy insert/outsert will get you there.


I'm sorry but you are NOT hunting that set up at over 600 grains my friend. At most with insert and outsert at 125 grains total which I don't think you would have both but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, you just described 587 grain arrow set up with broadhead.

Most all FMJ's which are one of the heaviest arrows on the market don't reach 12 grains per inch (gpi) for the stiffest spines.

Do the math:
12 grains on a 29" arrow (which is about the maximum you are going to get length wise) is 348 grains with fletchings and nock will put you around 366 grains. With 75 grain insert/outsert you are almost at 441 grains before broadhead. With 125" broadhead you are at 566 grains.

FMJ recently came out with a Dangerous Game arrow shaft which at 250 grain spine weights 17.7 gpi. At a ridiculous 29" arrow length, you are at 513 grains. Plus a 75 grain insert which they don't recommend you are at 588 grains. +200 inch broadhead you are at 788 grains. Ironwill's heaviest broadhead is a 250 grain broadhead putting you at 838 grains. Add 18 grains for nock and feathers. You get the picture. I'd be willing to bet you couldn't group that set up at 35 yards within the inside ring of a paper plate. so by going that heavy, you are sacrificing a shit load of flight characteristics that give you consistency. That's the only arrow they sell which could get you easily "well above 600 grains".

Also the days of building the fastest set up are over. It think people value penetration more so than speed. I know I do. But I value good flight above all else. When you start talking about a 600+ grain arrow, you are talking about a unicorn set up that is specialized to a specific large game animal and when you go there with a ridiculously high FOC, you are sacrificing a lot of accuracy. Building an arrow that heavy your FPS is going to be down around 220 fps at a 70# bow set up. At longer distance, which I value a lot, that's pretty damn slow so for distance some speed does matter.

I've literally have played with this trying to build custom arrows. One setup I built for hunting big mule deer and whitetails was a 445 grain total arrow with 125 grain head as part of that weight with a 20% FOC. It flew like dog shit at beyond 40 yards. Once you start getting above 600 grains to do so puts you in the ridiculous high FOC and when you do that, your accuracy beyond 30 yards goes to shit.
 
Posts: 175 | Location: Savannah, GA | Registered: 13 June 2006Reply With Quote
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Actually, there are fmj’s at 17 gpi. Running a heavy insert and outsert is quite commonplace these days, you should get out more.


"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man." - Joe Biden
 
Posts: 1784 | Registered: 28 September 2006Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by pointblank:
Actually, there are fmj’s at 17 gpi. Running a heavy insert and outsert is quite commonplace these days, you should get out more.

You're right. I need to get out more and stop taking advice from some of the best bow hunters in the world, some of which are friends of mine.
 
Posts: 175 | Location: Savannah, GA | Registered: 13 June 2006Reply With Quote
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For your consideration:

Don_G's Cape Buffalo Arrow For 2012


.
 
Posts: 2461 | Location: Arizona | Registered: 07 February 2010Reply With Quote
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Some may scoff and wonder why all the fuss.

Others, realize the Cape Buffalo is not a Moose.



http://www.france-animaux.org/...syncerus-caffer.html


.
 
Posts: 2461 | Location: Arizona | Registered: 07 February 2010Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by SkyJacker:
quote:
Originally posted by pointblank:
Actually, there are fmj’s at 17 gpi. Running a heavy insert and outsert is quite commonplace these days, you should get out more.

You're right. I need to get out more and stop taking advice from some of the best bow hunters in the world, some of which are friends of mine.


Honestly, I could give a flying fuck what you think. But when you call me a liar, I take offense. Fuck off. And please take note of the buff pic above, as the poster is right, moose ain’t buff.


"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man." - Joe Biden
 
Posts: 1784 | Registered: 28 September 2006Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by pointblank:
quote:
Originally posted by SkyJacker:
quote:
Originally posted by pointblank:
Actually, there are fmj’s at 17 gpi. Running a heavy insert and outsert is quite commonplace these days, you should get out more.

You're right. I need to get out more and stop taking advice from some of the best bow hunters in the world, some of which are friends of mine.


Honestly, I could give a flying fuck what you think. But when you call me a liar, I take offense. Fuck off. And please take note of the buff pic above, as the poster is right, moose ain’t buff.


Man, I'm just adding your math, I'm not calling you a liar so settle down. You didn't describe an arrow that was "well over 600 grains". I don't doubt for one second you THOUGHT you had an arrow over 600 grains. Before I started making my own arrows, I thought the same of my own setups. I told a local archery shop once to build me a 500 grain arrow without broadhead that had a 15-17% FOC. What I got was drastically different than that as it turned out because at the time they didn't know how to even order a 17 GPI arrow. They didn't exist unless you special ordered micro-diameter arrows from a craft maker. I've built a few arrows so I just added the grains you described as being in your set up.

That said, I'm not disagreeing with you or anyone else that you need a 700+ grain arrow for Cape Buffalo with a FOC above 15%. What I am saying, which clearly is difficult for some to understand, is Ed Ashby's arrow set ups will not group well beyond 40 yards and I know this because I've tested this A LOT. It can still kill but you are giving up a lot of pin point accuracy to shoot that set up and that's a fact NO professional archer will argue.
 
Posts: 175 | Location: Savannah, GA | Registered: 13 June 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by SkyJacker:
quote:
Originally posted by pointblank:
quote:
Originally posted by SkyJacker:
quote:
Originally posted by pointblank:
Actually, there are fmj’s at 17 gpi. Running a heavy insert and outsert is quite commonplace these days, you should get out more.

You're right. I need to get out more and stop taking advice from some of the best bow hunters in the world, some of which are friends of mine.


Honestly, I could give a flying fuck what you think. But when you call me a liar, I take offense. Fuck off. And please take note of the buff pic above, as the poster is right, moose ain’t buff.


Man, I'm just adding your math, I'm not calling you a liar so settle down. You didn't describe an arrow that was "well over 600 grains". I don't doubt for one second you THOUGHT you had an arrow over 600 grains. Before I started making my own arrows, I thought the same of my own setups. I told a local archery shop once to build me a 500 grain arrow without broadhead that had a 15-17% FOC. What I got was drastically different than that as it turned out because at the time they didn't know how to even order a 17 GPI arrow. They didn't exist unless you special ordered micro-diameter arrows from a craft maker. I've built a few arrows so I just added the grains you described as being in your set up.

That said, I'm not disagreeing with you or anyone else that you need a 700+ grain arrow for Cape Buffalo with a FOC above 15%. What I am saying, which clearly is difficult for some to understand, is Ed Ashby's arrow set ups will not group well beyond 40 yards and I know this because I've tested this A LOT. It can still kill but you are giving up a lot of pin point accuracy to shoot that set up and that's a fact NO professional archer will argue.


I don’t have to do the match, as I weigh my finished arrows. Look at the ethics archery page, and you’ll see that they make extremely heavy inserts and outserts to easily allow for 600 grain arrows. I’ve got 24 grains in vanes, 5 in a wrap, 20 in a nock, 350 in shaft. That’s 400 right there. It ain’t hard to get the rest of the way there. As far as long distance shooting, 60 is max for me, and that’s only on elk sized game and up. But, I wouldn’t dare shoot at a buffalo from more than 30.

Honestly, the reason I’ve gone up in arrow weight is from watching all the TV knuckle heads shooting 400 grain arrows with expandables, all but bounce off deer, let alone larger game. The deflections with light weight arrows is astounding, just clipping a rib, right behind the shoulder, turns into a gut shot. As you know, heavy arrows don’t do that. And I’m happy to sacrifice a little distance, to insure better penetration.


"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man." - Joe Biden
 
Posts: 1784 | Registered: 28 September 2006Reply With Quote
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I'll say this and leave the discussion. I guess I'm a knuckle head. Some of the best Bow Hunters I know shoot a 425 grain arrow set up at around 11.5% FOC with 100 grain broadhead at most game that is mule deer size and below. Meaning whitetails, Pronghorn, Sheep, and of course Mule Deer. I do shoot a fixed blade head Ram Cat.

that arrow is plenty to pass through that animal and I know because I have a few P&Y on the wall. Its also ridiculously accurate for longer shots above 50 yards where out west is somewhat expected and necessary in the open plains. You shoot a 650 grain + arrow out west you're sacrificing a ton of accuracy issues when you start shooting beyond 40 yards especially with severe FOC because its almost impossible to tune the arrow to the bow.

My current arrow for those game animals was designed and built by a friend of mine Bob Fromme who was the second person behind Chuck Adams to kill the Grand Slam of North America with a bow. You can look him up. Pretty sure he's a qualified expert since he owns one of the biggest archery shops in the West. I guess were both knuckleheads.

My Moose, Elk and larger game set up is a 595 grain arrow, WITH a 125 grain broadhead and is around 12% FOC. That arrow passed through a Yukon Moose twice both arrows going through ribs. For fun I shot the same set up into a moose's shoulder (once he was dead) and that arrow barely penetrated the thickest part of the shoulder blade and would not have killed the animal.

Again, not arguing what is needed on a Cape Buffalo but you don't need high FOC and a 600 grain arrow on all game. The difference between my groupings with a greater than 15% FOC arrow of any make and a better tuned arrow at 11% FOC at 50 yards is the difference between groupings inside of a paper plate versus an orange. That's a huge difference.
 
Posts: 175 | Location: Savannah, GA | Registered: 13 June 2006Reply With Quote
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I never called you a knucklehead. I got pissed when you called me a liar. Can’t you just accept that there’s more than one way to skin a cat? I’ve got several reasons that I like a heavier arrow, but the main one is penetration. I’ve watched enough videos/shows of big name bow hunters launching lightweight arrows, with expandables, to know I’m not going back there. Deflections are the norm, and just because they recover the animal in a few minutes on the tube, don’t mean that’s how it really happened. It just strikes me as a bit sketchy to watch these guys/girls having to spend countless hours tracking deer, or elk, that appear to have a good shot put on them. 30 years ago, before expandables and carbon arrows, heavy fixed blades were the norm, and penetration wasn’t a problem.


"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man." - Joe Biden
 
Posts: 1784 | Registered: 28 September 2006Reply With Quote
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So I have a question for both of you - and be nice :-)

Does it make a difference whether the weight is in the arrow itself or the broadhead?

I have always believed in fixed broadheads but have not dove into heavier arrow weights..


"At least once every human being should have to run for his life - to teach him that milk does not come from the supermarket, that safety does not come from policemen, and that news is not something that happens to other people." - Robert Heinlein
 
Posts: 681 | Location: Akron, OH | Registered: 07 March 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott Powell:
So I have a question for both of you - and be nice :-)

Does it make a difference whether the weight is in the arrow itself or the broadhead?

I have always believed in fixed broadheads but have not dove into heavier arrow weights..


I think it does. Getting the right balance is critical, if you strive for best arrow flight, which leads to best penetration. I think Ashby takes it a bit too far, but FOC (forward of center) should be a big part of the equation, when putting arrows together. Honestly, it takes a bit of trial and error to get the right combo. I’ll share a video that shows what a 650 grain arrow can do when balanced properly. These guys also spend a lot of time using FOC, and putting heavy components together.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=...phk&index=13&t=1722s

For some reason, I can’t get it to cue in the right spot, but if you rewind a couple minutes, you’ll see the encounter.


"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man." - Joe Biden
 
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quote:
Originally posted by pointblank:
I never called you a knucklehead. I got pissed when you called me a liar. Can’t you just accept that there’s more than one way to skin a cat? I’ve got several reasons that I like a heavier arrow, but the main one is penetration. I’ve watched enough videos/shows of big name bow hunters launching lightweight arrows, with expandables, to know I’m not going back there. Deflections are the norm, and just because they recover the animal in a few minutes on the tube, don’t mean that’s how it really happened. It just strikes me as a bit sketchy to watch these guys/girls having to spend countless hours tracking deer, or elk, that appear to have a good shot put on them. 30 years ago, before expandables and carbon arrows, heavy fixed blades were the norm, and penetration wasn’t a problem.


If your broadhead weight is too heavy compared to your arrow shaft in my experience it leads to a lot of broken shafts.
 
Posts: 175 | Location: Savannah, GA | Registered: 13 June 2006Reply With Quote
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