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Re: How much helical?
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Put as much helical as you can get with the base of the vanes flat on the shaft. WHY? Because if it is real windy out, your arrow will stay on course better.
A perfectly tuned bow does not need much vane area or helical but the wind will play hell with the arrow flight. It can also make up for a bad release a little. Loss of velocity? Almost none!
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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What is that stuff about having the blades lined up with the nock? You come over here and I will put a broadhead on my arrow with an insert that is way to small for the shaft, cock it over sideways so it is pointing who knows where and shoot it into the bullseye. You are doing something totally unnecessary.
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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I fletch my own shafts with either a jojan or Bitzenburger fletcher. For hunting arrows, I always use the Jojan. I put as much right helical on as the shaft will allow. I'm not sure to what degree, but I get as much while maintaining shaft-fletch contact for the length of the shaft.

I have shot broadheads with straight or slightly offset fletching. Honestly, I don't see a huge difference out to say twenty yards. The blades of the broadhead are trying to steer the shaft and so is the fletching...simultaneously. The main thing is to have the heads properly aligned with the nock.

However, I still agree and personally, I feel more confident shooting helical fletching. I even shoot helical fletching on my 3-D set up. The spinning has to stabilize the arrow faster and thus creates more efficient and accurate flight.

Playing devil's advocate, I still say that the straight fletching will shoot as good as I can shoot...just my two cents.
 
Posts: 336 | Location: Kentucky | Registered: 03 December 2003Reply With Quote
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If you think the flow off the spinning blades is coming straight back across the vanes you must have had too much ridge ripple.

First off, I don't post in this or any other forum to have a place to argue...I get enough of that from the wife. Second, I didn't suggest that any flow is coming from the blades across the vanes. The blades, a field point, a blunt tip, or your pin head will all affect the flow of air however minute it may be if placed on the front end of an arrow and if you can't understand that, I'm sorry for ya.

The bottom line is that I do what works for me. If you want to go around the woods or the web spouting that you can shoot an arrow into the bull with the insert turned sideways, you just spout on. I have my doubts about what kind of bull you are hitting with your shaft!
 
Posts: 336 | Location: Kentucky | Registered: 03 December 2003Reply With Quote
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gee whiz, you sound like a democrat!
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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Having enough helical to stabilize your arrows is highly subjective. Straight fletching (which actaully is rarely straight on the shaft) isn't the most stable choice, most jigs put some amount of helical on the fletching. Using enough where you can still glue your fletching on consistently, with the base of the feather or vane seated squarely on the shaft is probably the best way to chose. Any arrow tipped with a broadhead now has a forward set of wings. They always have an effect on your arrow's flight. Having them seated squarely and spinning true is essential to consistent accuracy. Shooting a mis-aligned broadhead or an arrow with a mis-sized insert or especially both is simply foolish. It is impossible to have good repeatable results with either or both of those conditions present. Keep your fletching in good condition and make sure your broadheads spin true and you're well on your way to good results. Good Luck and straight shooting.
 
Posts: 3563 | Location: GA, USA | Registered: 02 August 2004Reply With Quote
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Fish, I used this test when I was developing my tuning method. After getting the bow tuned I wanted to see what would happen if the broadhead was not straight. I offset it a little with no effect and kept at it until the head was really crooked. I also turned it to different positions in relation to the vanes. I have to admit cringing before each shot knowing I just had to break an arrow. My surprise was that I was able to keep every shot in the bullseye no matter where the head was pointed. I shot 20 and 30 yds with them. This was not a foolish stunt, it was to prove that a properly tuned bow is not effected by the size or orientation of the head. By the way, I was shooting 80# with my fingers. I have also proved my method by removing one blade at a time until there was only one left. The weight change would aid in tuning the same as adjusting the bow weight and every one shot straight.
I do put them on straight for hunting but no longer worry about a few thousandths out.
If you think that was foolish, I once shot a broadhead into the bullseye at 40 yds from a well tuned recurve WITH NO VANES.
I have been at this archery game for 60 years and using compounds since their inception. I have been through all the bull of shooting all summer to tune broadheads only to have to change a string, rest or limb and start all over.
It took a long time but I developed the proper tuning method for broadheads and once a bow is paper tuned, I can tune for a broadhead in five minutes.
NAP uses a version of my method, WHY? Because I gave it to them, but it is copyrighted so they can't use the exact method yet. Most of the new tuning methods you see today are based on my method. I have been giving it free to guys on this site.
I don't think anyone on this site has the right to tell me I don't know what I am talking about. Been there, done that and proved them wrong! And I have been willing to help with free information.
If you know it all, fine, I don't get angry and will just let you blunder along.
I go to the cast bullet and handgun hunting forums here also, but this bowhunting site has the most opinionated, hard headed bunch of any forum I have ever been to. I guess I will have to watch what I say from now on, don't want to offend anyone's feelings. Maybe have to stop giving stuff away too.
I couldn't sell my book or get it published due to the horrendous cost and little return. The archery magazines didn't want it because they already had bow tuning being published. I read the articles and they didn't know what to do to get broadheads to fly. I laughed at them.
The big problem is most of you started with the release---instant archers! In my tournament days I would outshoot all of you! My friend Vic Berger shot a perfect score with his fingers to beat all the release shooters.
Now I laugh at you!
I take that back, I have met some mighty fine people on this site.
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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bfr...I appreciate that it works for you. As a tournament shooter, you know that concentration plays a big role in accurate shooting. If a guy believes his heads must be aligned, they must be. The last thing I want to think about when I draw on an animal is whether my broadheads are aligned. I can't say whether arrows shoot straight with misaligned heads and I'm not going to try it any time soon. I can say that they shoot straight when properly aligned.

Paper tuning, on the other hand, I have tried many, many, times. I too started shooting with fingers and no sights. I also shot with Rod White, Olympic medalist for team USA Archery in 92 and 96 I think. Anyway, he did win a Gold and a Bronze with his recurve. I watched him shoot 6 / 6 lifesavers at 40 yards with a short Mathews bow. His arrows were aluminum. I can't remember the diameter size, but the spine size was "12". They were the big line cutter shafts. Anyway, his arrow flight was horrible. Those arrows looked like everything but efficient in flight. He knew it but, he told me they always find the bull. How do you argue with that? Burley Hall, winner of more national titles than any other archer, was my sales rep when I had the shop. Neither of these men paper tuned. The problem I think is: It shoots a bullet hole at 12 feet, or 12 yards and then if you shoot at twenty feet, the tear may be off. I know that each shaft has to have time to stabelize, but I never relied heavily on paper tuning. Although, I will agree that it is useful and has it's purpose.

Randy Chappell, winner of multiple IBO and ASA events for both High Country and PSE used paper tuning as well. He always sought a high left tear. His theory was that the arrow is getting up off the rest and away from the bow (right handed shooter) with this tear.

My point...archery is an individual sport and the mental game is probably half the battle. What works for one may not work for another. Again, I can't say how accuracy will suffer from misaligned heads. I don't plan to find out either.
 
Posts: 336 | Location: Kentucky | Registered: 03 December 2003Reply With Quote
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BFR, I'm glad you have your bows tuned so well they can shoot with marginal arrow/broadhead setup. If you have that much forgiveness in your setup that's great. It is foolish to set an arrow up that way except perhaps as you indicate to test your setups tolerance. I don't shoot a release! I have read much about your setup and shooting here before and much of what you state is to the contrary of what is proper--i.e. shooting fingers without a cushion plunger, but needing one with a release. Having to use a stiffer/heavier arrow for a release with all else being same in your setup-- maybe you just typed it backwards--I certainly am not angry with you-- your methods work for you and that is fine, I have multiple national & world championship victories to my credit as a mens limited (fingers) 3-D tournament archer. Paper tuning is important and I do so, but it is only part of the program. As someone else mentioned, depending on setup of my rig, a nock high left (right handed shooter) tear has been the read that produced the best results. I'm sure people appreciate the knowledge that you share, as I appreciate that of others.
Regards & Continued good shooting!
 
Posts: 3563 | Location: GA, USA | Registered: 02 August 2004Reply With Quote
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Fish, you have two things wrong. I would not think of shooting fingers without a cushion plunger! In fact I had the first plunger called a Panic Button when everyone said they would not work. I don't know where you seen that! I can also shoot a lighter arrow with my fingers then I can with a release. Yes, it is true! And I get higher velocity with a heavy arrow with my fingers.
What I did say was that when a bow was set up for fingers, and then I shot the same setup with the release, I did not get the same flight, WITH EVERY BOW, one of them did, however shoot good off the plunger.
Also a nock high tear left is good for fingers but the release has zero archers paradox and the hole should be, well, one hole.
I use drop away rests with the release. My tuning method works perfectly with fingers and the release as I have found since converting two bows to them. I still have bows for fingers and will not stop shooting fingers. This is my first year trying the release due to lack of shooting time.
I can only conclude that you misread my posts or confused them with someone elses. We seem to agree with more then you think we do.
For years I have been out of tournaments and concentrated on broadhead tuning because all of my archery shooting now is for hunting. I read that broadheads and field points could never be depended on to hit the same place. For years this was the way and I would get broadheads sighted in with the best flight I could get from them and hold off for field points. Since I solved the problem, this is no longer true and both will hit the same spot. Once a bow is tuned for a broadhead I can shoot any head on the market to the same point of impact AS LONG AS THEY WEIGH THE SAME. If a head is heavier or lighter, I can change settings in seconds because I record it for each bow. I also change settings in seconds so I can shoot three different arrow sizes from the same bow. Same for arrow lengths. I can bounce back and forth from one to the other depending on how strong I am at the time and how much practice I had. I do not have the time to practice as much as I once did and it gets too hot and buggy most of the year here. So If I am out of strength, I just make a quick adjustment, grab different arrows and hunt. Extremely quick and easy. At last count I have over 220 deer kills with bows. I killed three my first year, in three states. I divided my hunting between bows, crossbows, muzzle loaders, rifles, and shotguns and now only use handguns in gun season. I can't count the deer any more. Now days I quit after 5 to 7 deer per season depending on how many friends and neighbors need deer. I keep two for myself.
And I am not angry with you either, I would very much prefer to call you FRIEND!
Do you want to know about Whitetails? I can fool them and know more about their actions and communication then Indians did. But thats another story and another book I can't sell. I found that if one kills a BOOK deer, he can sell anything. I am and always will be, a MEAT hunter. Horns never impressed me and you just can't eat them big buggers. I shot some nice bucks in Ohio and had to give the meat away. Now I give every buck away. Don't want it in my freezer.
Are we friends?
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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Hey BFR appreciate it. I hope you keep getting good results. Most folks can actually use a lesser spined arrow with a release and it sounds like your having a different experience, but as you know it is very individual to get the tune for your specifics. You're right-- most folks are in fact using an arrow shorter than their draw length nowadays, what with cut out risers being the rule instead of the exception--I in fact shoot a 28" shaft in all of my setups except my recurves--30.5" arrows--I'm a 30" draw length. Good Luck and straight shooting.-D.
 
Posts: 3563 | Location: GA, USA | Registered: 02 August 2004Reply With Quote
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Hey, I know why I need a heavy arrow! The bell just went off. Course I am 67, what do you expect? I use 30" arrows.
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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See, I told you we think alike! Everything you just said is the same way I think. Heavy arrow, no matter the speed and yes I do get my heads as straight as I can. Some have a tiny bit of wobble I can't remove without bending something but I don't worry about it.
I have heard many times that a lighter arrow can be shot with the release and was extremely surprised that I could not. I would much prefer to turn the bows up for the heavier arrow. I tuned two bows with different cams for perfect broadhead flight, each weighed a lot different on the scale for the same arrow. Then I shot over the chronograph and they were within one fps of each other. Thrust has to be exact for any given arrow no matter what bow it is shot from. When I tried a light arrow with the release I got large left tears in the paper and the broadheads hit far to the right. If a bow shoots a toothpick at 300 fps and you turn to a heavy hunting arrow, the bow has to be turned down to the thrust the new arrow needs to stabilize. No gain whatsoever except a lighter bow weight can be shot.
Carbon arrows are stiff and can be shot fast for 3D but are the devil to tune with broadheads when trying to maintain the speed. I tried them and had to turn the weight way down for stability. Again, no gain. In fact I consider it a loss because I lost arrow weight.
If you want a copy of my method E-mail me at jameswbr@aol.com and I will send it to you. It is so simple I often wonder why it took me years to figure out.
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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BFR, I think you are right, perhaps I misread your previous post-- I think we are more on the same page then we either may have thought. I have very similar tuning and setup methods to you. I believe you when you state that you get more velocity when you shoot with fingers vs release, but I assure you that is rare, all else being equal--exact draw length setup of bow etc., but I have seen it, it's just rare. I don't get to put as much time in at the practice butt as I need to anymore, back in the competition days I shot for at least two hours a day,5-6 days a week, I don't get to shoot that much in two months nowadays. I also favor heavier arrows when it is a good shooting combo, as with most things moderation is a key, Norb Mullaney, reknowned archery engineer always trended that way, though he often pointed out that in the equation E=MV2 it was the velocity number that got squared, not the mass number. Bottom line for me though, I'd rather get hit with a 1913 at 300fps instead of a 2419 at 200. Referring back to the thread--which I think we grew a branch on-- it is good to have a little more than a little less in stabilizing broadheads IMO. True square broadheads and a well tuned setup most of all are key to good flight, especially with the broadheads--I think we agree.
Your Friend and Fellow Archer--D.
 
Posts: 3563 | Location: GA, USA | Registered: 02 August 2004Reply With Quote
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