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Picture of Clem
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Have you taken other than broadside shots with a bow? What were the results?
 
Posts: 1292 | Location: I'm right here! | Registered: 01 July 2004Reply With Quote
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If you are talking deer, yes, I have taken several shots that were not broadside and while some worked, some were disasterous.

Shot one and the arrow passed through nothing but the meat inbetween the shoulder and the rib cage on a doe that was quartering. I would have thought for sure it would have went into the chest cavity but it didn't and she made it merely wounded Frowner

Shot one quartering to me in the shoulder and the arrow just stoped when it hit him, you should have seen the broadhead, it actually bent the shaft of the head and broke the tip off.

I've also hit them in the shoulder when broadside and the arrow only penetrated about 2-3" and fell out.

OTOH, a quartering away shot in the rear of the ribs and through the vitals is dynomite and kills fast.

I've shot some deer facing me w/ their head down and placed the arrow right inbetween their shoulder blades through the spine. Needless to say they dropped on the spot.

These few shots mentioned above were not something I'm proud of, Just learned experiences through the trials and errors of bow hunting.

I guess the worst shots I've personally experienced as well as my hunting buddies have been from shoulder hits, a hit to the shoulder can flat stop an arrow. It will not always stop it but, it will many times. A good ole' broadside or slight quarter is definitely the best way to go for em'.

Good Luck

Reloader
 
Posts: 4146 | Location: North Louisiana | Registered: 18 February 2004Reply With Quote
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I have enough trouble only taking broadside or slightly quartering away shots!


Don_G

...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado!
 
Posts: 1645 | Location: Elizabeth, Colorado | Registered: 13 February 2004Reply With Quote
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I switched from all the "super broadhead stuff" to just plain old Bear 2 blade cut on contact about 8 years ago and get complete pass thru everytime and dead deer as well.

I gut shot (my son says I shot her in the ass) a doe this year that jumped the string throwing her butt into the air and the arrow went thru the left ham, edge of the hip bone, intestines and clipped the right lung before going thru the ribs on the far side. She went 50 yds and fell over. I don't think you can do that with a 3 or 4 blade.

Before I switched I shot a doe with a 4 blade something or other directly under my stand. It went into her spine, but not thru it and it took 2 more arrows to kill her.

I really like the 2 blades sharpened with a rough stone to give a sharp but ragged edge.


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Posts: 858 | Location: MD Eastern Shore | Registered: 24 May 2005Reply With Quote
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Here in Africa you must make sure of your shot and in that I mean angels, you must know where the vitals are at all times. If you don’t the animal will probably get away or die some ware else and be eaten or even worst, you just might get hurt. If seen and used a few angles that is not out of the book but worked very well but the margin for error is very small, and like I said the results can be very costly and dangerous.

We did some testing the other day on a Giraffe bull carcass that was harvested with a bow; a broadside shot at the vitals will have to go through a rib if you are unlucky so we tested a 850gr arrow out of a 80# Bowtech bow that gave us 220fps and took a shot at it from 15yards and it only penetrated 12inches after it encountered a rib. When slaughtered we could see that the broad head did splintered the rib but that it also glanced of the rib and this caused the loss in penetration.

So it is very important to know where each animals vitals are, and trust me some of them do not always sit where you want them to sit, so that you will know what the best angle of attack is. Trust me I will think twice to go for a broadside shot on a giraffe .

Regards Gerrit
 
Posts: 11 | Location: Pretoria South Africa | Registered: 10 January 2006Reply With Quote
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I am only going to say; if you are shooting fast, light arrows, stay away from anything but broadside behind the shoulder hits. If you think you are the perfect shot that can hit a deer right there at all distances and tree stand angles I won't say more to you. If you get a bad hit once in a while and are shooting toothpicks real fast with a poor choice of broadhead (they all work together) you will lose the deer.
For the deer that had the arrow go between the shoulder and rib cage, the arrow should have hit farther back through the liver or maybe even some guts, to reach the lung area. You can't shoot for the same behind the shoulder spot on a quartering animal.
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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I am only going to say; if you are shooting fast, light arrows, stay away from anything but broadside behind the shoulder hits. If you think you are the perfect shot that can hit a deer right there at all distances and tree stand angles I won't say more to you. If you get a bad hit once in a while and are shooting toothpicks real fast with a poor choice of broadhead (they all work together) you will lose the deer.
For the deer that had the arrow go between the shoulder and rib cage, the arrow should have hit farther back through the liver or maybe even some guts, to reach the lung area. You can't shoot for the same behind the shoulder spot on a quartering animal.


You missed any? Had any jump the string?


I've shot a pile of em' w/ my bows and I'll be the first to tell you that you can't hit em' right where you want every time. If you think you can, you are in fore a very big let down.

On your comment about the inbetween the ribs and shoulder shot, I guess you just had to be there. I had the right hold on her, she was slightly quartering away and I was going to go right behind the shoulder and throught the vitals but, when I let it fly she moved her head, chest and neck to the far right (She was feeding) and it moved her vitals to the side and the arrow passed right down the rib cage. Had she stayed w/ her head neck and chest straight foward, it would have nailed her heart but, you can't win em all.

I'll disagree w/ the light arrow logic, they are not all that bad, in fact they are superior to the heavy arrows on the lighter game. A good carbon w/ a Razor sharp NAP head weighing in around 400 grains total and traveling close to 300 fps or more will beat a heavy slow arrow in just about every category on whitetail sized game. Not to mention you only need one pin from straight down out to 30 yards.

I'm not basing this on the opinion of using only one. I've been through the old heavy poundage bows w/ super heavy arrows stage, guess it just takes a while to convince yourself to convert but, once you do you'll probably never look back.

Reloader
 
Posts: 4146 | Location: North Louisiana | Registered: 18 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Might I enquire what type broadheads you were using on those shots?


Better to remain silent and be thought a fool. Than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
 
Posts: 75 | Location: Mountains of North Carolina | Registered: 02 December 2005Reply With Quote
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I prefer the broadside shot. I have killed two whitetails and a sow with hard quarter away shots. On all three I entered near the last rib. With the arrow going into the heart area.

I felt all of those shorts were made under idea condtions, animals with heads down tuerned away feeding.

I've only take one slightly quarting to shot. That was on a turkey, I eneter at the breast wing and dropped him on his face in one step. That was my last compound bow hunt, I've hunter witha recurve for the last 10 years. Cool I new I'd never top that shot....

While I strongly believe and recomend the broadside shot. Sometimes however, some shooters have oppertunities present thenmsevles that they just know they can handle.


If you can't smell his breath, your're not close enough!

 
Posts: 980 | Location: Illinois | Registered: 04 January 2003Reply With Quote
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Reloader, yes I miss once in a while and have had some bad hits. You didn't explain in your first post that the deer jumped the string. This could not be helped.
This is one problem with light arrows and fast bows that are almost dry fired with every shot. The reason all the new bows are loaded with vibration stuff.
I have only had several deer jump the string out of somewhere around 227 bow kills. One was cause by a quiver and the other was a sight. A change of these parts on the bows eliminated the string jumping. Another bow that gave me trouble was an old Jennings that I pre-loaded the limbs on. It had tremendous speed but I could not hit a deer with it, or any other animal for that matter. Shooting fingers, I could hit a coffee cup at 45 yd's. Deer and squirrels would bolt and be 20 yd's away before the arrow reached them. I guess this is what soured me on fast bows, light arrows and noisy bows. I was shopping for a bow a few years ago and tried one at the range. It scared me so much I thought the bow exploded. It went back on the rack. Never heard anything like it.
As for shooting flat for 30 yd's! I have to ask why you need that. I shoot 2419 shafts and use one pin to 25 yd's. I don't see where your 5 yd's gives you any advantage when you lose penetration with all but the perfect shot. I am not perfect, admit it and use equipment that still works if I hit off a few inches. I had a deer wheel just as I released one time. A buck snorted behind me and she spun. I hit her in the neck, it went through, then into her shoulder and exited between her back legs and was 10" into the ground. That was end to end penetration and meat in the pot. But she was a mess to gut. I will stick with my heavy bows and arrows, thank you.
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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I loose only broadside double lung shots but sometimes things change before the arrow arrives. I've had good luck with some some poor hits over the years, but when I don't hit both lungs the tracking job can be more complicated.
 
Posts: 1733 | Registered: 31 January 2006Reply With Quote
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Here is my summation IMO:

1 Broad side. Prefered at any practical range the archer is competent.
2 Quartering away - good up to about a 45 deg angle. Beyond 45 deg the margine for error gets too thin.
2 Quartering towards. You now are contending with bone. I took this shot this fall and JUST got away with it. The arrow hit the shoulder blade and only penetrated 10 inches - just enough to rip the lungs up.
3 Head on frontal shot. Very small margin for error - not recommended. Have seen it done from a tree between the shoulder blades. You can either hit the spine or through the heart/one lung but a chancy shot.
4 Texas heart shot - not a good shot to even consider.
 
Posts: 1292 | Location: I'm right here! | Registered: 01 July 2004Reply With Quote
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Clem, good assesment. I only take broadside or quartering away shots. The quickest kill I ever had was a quartering away shot on a nice buck. He hit the ground in one step. I let deer walk if I can't get a good shot, there will be others and other days. There are shots I will not take even though I know my bow will do the job. Even though I can hit targets out to 100 yd's with fingers or a release, I still like my deer 20 yd's or less. I have taken them out to 50 yd's but those were rare occasions during deer drives back in Ohio when there were very few deer. It was either shoot or not see another deer all season. That was fingers and recurve days.
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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Bfrshooter,

I agree w/ you on some points but, not on others like the fast bow and sound note.

I currently shoot a Mathews bow and my arrows are traveling close to 300 fps. It is one of the quietest bows I've ever heard. Prior to I shot a Bowtech at close to the same speed and it too was very quiet. Prior to the Bowtech I shot a Ben Pearson that was fast too and Man, let me tell you, you had to be there to realize how quiet that bow was.

I will be the first to admit that you have really got to do your home work to find a bow that is very fast but, also very quiet. They do exist.

Another thing I disagree w/ is your trajectory assessment. I too used heavy poundage bows w/ heavy arrows before the modern bow tech. was in place and they dropped much much more than you speak of but, you are probably talking about a different zero range. For treestand hunting I zero my bows at around 15 yards because that is where I take most of my shots if not closer than that. Those old bows dropped horribly at 25-30 yards when zeroed at 15 and when zeroed at 25 they were quite high at 10-15 and terriblly high from high in a treestand.

With my last few fast bows and carbon arrows, I zero at 15 and I'm w/in just inches of zero at 30 and that's flat my friend.


I'd also like to mention how loud those old bows I shot were, they sounded like someone slapping a boat paddle against an oak rotflmo

Hey, I do keep and older 80# high country around for back up. It does the job but it's pretty loud and slow too.

I'd also urge you to get some of your archery buddies to show you just how effective some of these new carbon arrows are at high speeds. A 400 grain carbon launched at 300 fps will penetrate much more w/ a very sharp head than you would actually think and it may surprise you how they fair against an aluminum out to 30 yards. For one thing, the shaft is slimmer which means less resistance after impact. For another, the high speed helps them carry a good bit of energy.


Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that a 400 grain arrow @ 300 fps has more energy than a 600 grain arrow at 220fps. Matter of fact 16 more ftlbs!! That really gets heavy arrow shooters flaming when I tell them that.

Bfrshooter, I totally respect your equipment choices and your bow hunting skills but, I encourage you to try and look at some of this new technology w/ an open mind.

Have a Good one

Reloader
 
Posts: 4146 | Location: North Louisiana | Registered: 18 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that a 400 grain arrow @ 300 fps has more energy than a 600 grain arrow at 220fps. Matter of fact 16 more ftlbs!! That really gets heavy arrow shooters flaming when I tell them that.


I've never meet a deer yet that cared how fast the arrow that kill him was going. moon


If you can't smell his breath, your're not close enough!

 
Posts: 980 | Location: Illinois | Registered: 04 January 2003Reply With Quote
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I have only one requirement, A heavy arrow going fast. Some of the new carbon shafts do meet that requirement as they are being made heavier. I also agree that some of the new, fast bows are quiet but I can't afford any of them. Equipment has come a long way since the bow makers realized that high frequency noise from a bow makes them useless for hunting. I told you they are sticking all kinds of vibration dampers in them.
What you don't realize is that it is not the bow noise YOU hear that scares animals. It is the high frequency noise that you CAN'T hear.
I am dead set against a light arrow no matter how fast it is going. The foot pound thing doesn't hold water when game is hit. I can't count the deer I have shot that had a light arrow inside of them. I gave one to a neighbor and he almost cut himself when butchering. 4" to 6" of arrow broken off in a deer makes me sick. I find dead deer every year with a light arrow stuck in them that did not penetrate far enough for the guy to find it. It has gotten so bad that I cringe every time I open a deer and stick my hands inside.
I'm sorry, but you will never change my mind. Even if I could buy a new bow, I would find the heaviest arrow it would shoot. I have 3 Brownings now and I sight the top pins at 20 yd's. It is an inch high at 10 yd's and an inch low at 25. I rarely need the 30 yd pin.
I killed tons of deer with a 62# recurve and heavy arrows and almost always had complete penetration. I do not need 300 fps. HUNTING is what counts, not shooting flat for 40 yd's.
I was invited to go to several 3D shoots a few years ago. I was still shooting fingers and I used my 82# Browning with 2419 shafts and outshot all of the whiz-bang shooters. I have not been asked to go again. You can't tell me I need better. I am 68, still shooting 82# and my Brownings will be good enough until I can't draw them. They work and work very well and I can hunt anything in North America with them.
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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I have only one requirement, A heavy arrow going fast. Some of the new carbon shafts do meet that requirement as they are being made heavier. I also agree that some of the new, fast bows are quiet but I can't afford any of them. Equipment has come a long way since the bow makers realized that high frequency noise from a bow makes them useless for hunting. I told you they are sticking all kinds of vibration dampers in them.
What you don't realize is that it is not the bow noise YOU hear that scares animals. It is the high frequency noise that you CAN'T hear.
I am dead set against a light arrow no matter how fast it is going. The foot pound thing doesn't hold water when game is hit. I can't count the deer I have shot that had a light arrow inside of them. I gave one to a neighbor and he almost cut himself when butchering. 4" to 6" of arrow broken off in a deer makes me sick. I find dead deer every year with a light arrow stuck in them that did not penetrate far enough for the guy to find it. It has gotten so bad that I cringe every time I open a deer and stick my hands inside.
I'm sorry, but you will never change my mind. Even if I could buy a new bow, I would find the heaviest arrow it would shoot. I have 3 Brownings now and I sight the top pins at 20 yd's. It is an inch high at 10 yd's and an inch low at 25. I rarely need the 30 yd pin.
I killed tons of deer with a 62# recurve and heavy arrows and almost always had complete penetration. I do not need 300 fps. HUNTING is what counts, not shooting flat for 40 yd's.
I was invited to go to several 3D shoots a few years ago. I was still shooting fingers and I used my 82# Browning with 2419 shafts and outshot all of the whiz-bang shooters. I have not been asked to go again. You can't tell me I need better. I am 68, still shooting 82# and my Brownings will be good enough until I can't draw them. They work and work very well and I can hunt anything in North America with them.



I ain't telling you you need better. I'm just telling you might want to consider to look at it w/ an open mind.

Your comment on energy when the deer is hit is very misleading. The arrow w/ the smaller shaft that carries more energy WILL penetrate more. You can shoot into layered cardboard, layered targets, thin sheets of plyboard. You name it. The arrow w/ the thinner shaft as long as it has more energy will flat out shoot deeper every time.

Please don't base finding deer shot w/ light arrows in your opinion of fast bows w/ lighter arrows. I can think of a pile of deer that got away w/ heavy arrows and I personally know of two that had heavy arrows and fixed blade heads in them. I killed one of them and a friend killed the other. It doesn't make one difference what weight the arrow is if you don't put it in the right spot.

If you don't believe a super fast 400 grain arrow will penetrate great, good for you but, don't tell everyone they will not. I have only taken around 20 or so deer since I switched to the fast bows w/ light arrows in the past few seasons, that may not be very many to you but I think I've gotten a pretty good idea of how effective they are. I took a pile of deer w/ heavy poundage bows and heavy arrows before I switched and I'm here to tell you that the fast bows will out penetrate my older set-ups bar none.

bfr, I'm not trying to get in a big pissing match w/ you but, I think you should honestly listen to the fact that the lighter arrows will work quiet well. The MAJOR effect on penetration is the right broadhead w/ a very sharp edge.

I'm not going to get into a too drawn out long winded post but, I will tell you this: When I use heavier bows w/ heavy arrows I had more penetration problems than I do now. W/ a 80# bow and 2315 arrows the bow was difficult to tune perfectly w/ broadheads as some bows are so I finally made my first step towards the new technology and went to a expandable head. W/ those heads I piled up several deer but I had terrible penetration, the deer ran off w/ the arrows every time and it was knocking the snot out of them when it hit. So now your thinking that I shouldn't have ever used the expandables....

Then, I bought a new wiz bang bow and some carbon arrows. I decided to use the same heads w/ the much lighter arrows (400-450 grains then). I was amazed at the penetration advantage w/ my new set-up. I started getting the pass-thrus and bury-ups that I had w/ fixed blade heads. Even on quatering shots it was plowing straight through whitetails.

Then, I read a broadhead test review that tested the various broadheads and rated them. I bought two brands of the best penetrating Expandables in the test to try.

Well, I tried them on the last few deer I killed and I even more impressed. I shot through a six point at 30 yards quartering away and the arrow buried half of the shaft on the other side and required a stiff tugg to remove it from the ground. Then I shot a couple more this season, I only took two w/ bow this year but, passed on others. I shot one through the side of the head, through the back bone, and through the lungs. If that doesn't say some thing about a high speed 400 grain arrow, I don't know what will. Also shot another doe broad side and the arrow went into a tree root deep in the ground on the other side and bent the broad head.

I will agree w/ you that the super light arrows are not the best choice.

Bfr, you've got to realize, their are guys out there shooting 300 grain arrows at speeds around 250-270. Now I will agree w/ you that that is certainly asking for problems.


On the frequency note, You find me a deer that can jump out of the way of a 300 fps arrow at 15-20 yards and we'll talk. I'm not getting near the string jumps w/ fast bows as w/ slow hevay arrow bows. I had to aim much lower w/ my older slower bows.

Have a Good One

Reloader
 
Posts: 4146 | Location: North Louisiana | Registered: 18 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Reloader, you say a lot of good things. The proper carbon arrow is, indeed, very good and I have no beef with them. However you made two mistakes. The 2315 is WAY too light and hard to tune. That bow should have been shooting a 2419.
The other is that deer can not avoid a fast arrow. That is as wrong a statement as I have ever heard. Until an arrow exceeds the speed of sound, you will never beat a deer's reflexes.
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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The other is that deer can not avoid a fast arrow. That is as wrong a statement as I have ever heard. Until an arrow exceeds the speed of sound, you will never beat a deer's reflexes.



Ah, Never said you will beat his reflexes and whole heartedly agree w/ you on that. What I did say was you show me one that can get out of the way at that close of a range.

I still aim low to compensate for them dropping (Jumpin' String) but, It has not taken me long to realize that w/ these super fast set-ups, they just flat out can't move far. I'll put it this way Bfr, I've shot them looking right at me at around 15 and they tried to move but I hit right where I was aiming. Notice I also said at a close range, because when they are out there around 25 to 30, you almost have to have a gun to keep them from moving sometimes if their on edge.

I can imagine if we had to walk around on pins and needles and think everything around was going to eat us, we'd probably develope some pretty quick reflexes ourselves Big Grin

Have a Good One

Reloader
 
Posts: 4146 | Location: North Louisiana | Registered: 18 February 2004Reply With Quote
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All things being EQUAL(The key factor ie. shaft diameter, speed. trajetory) the heavier shaft will always out penitrate the lighter one. It's matter of physics not bran or gear loyalty or if the shoter has killed one or one thousand animals.

Speed/KE is only one part of the equasion Momentium and usually forgotten, drag are also factors along with trajectory and enegry retention.

Carbon arrows retain more energy than Aluminum or wood do to paradox.


If you can't smell his breath, your're not close enough!

 
Posts: 980 | Location: Illinois | Registered: 04 January 2003Reply With Quote
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I have been watching the carbon arrows and see that they are making them heavier now and I plan on buying some when I get the money. As I said, I have nothing against them as long as the weight matches the bow weight. I am only against too light of an arrow.
The bow I had that was making deer drop at the shot (The sight was transmitting a high freq noise, changing the sight cured it.) made me aim low. I missed the first 2 deer that walked by. I did not see what happened on the first as the arrow is fast even though it is heavy. I seen the deer drop on the second miss. Both of my arrows were an inch apart in the ground. I held low on the third deer. The problem was that when she dropped, she also moved back and I hit her in the shoulder. My 2419 went through the shoulder, spine and cut the ball joint in half in the opposite leg. The arrow went deep enough to bury the vanes in her side and it actually knocked her off her feet sideways so the arrow stuck in the ground and she slid down it. A light arrow would have stopped in the shoulder and I would have crippled her.
This is why I want a heavy arrow, not that a light one will not do the job with a perfect shot but because you can't predict how a deer will react or where the arrow will hit. If you have to aim low at every deer and can't hit the longer shots without the deer jumping the string, something is WRONG and needs fixed. I have no trouble shooting at deer at 40 yd's or more, they do NOT move. I too, have shot deer facing me while still hunting, they didn't move either.
If any bow I have makes a deer move, I put it away and take another one out. I will spend a lot of time to solve the problem with that bow if it means changing a quiver, sight, stabilizer or something else. You guys don't realize how something on the bow can amplify or concentrate a high freq sound and send it out.
The bottom line is, if the deer jump the string, fix the problem, and it might mean a heavier arrow too.
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by Boss Kongoni:
All things being EQUAL(The key factor ie. shaft diameter, speed. trajetory) the heavier shaft will always out penitrate the lighter one. It's matter of physics not bran or gear loyalty or if the shoter has killed one or one thousand animals.


A bow is not 100% efficient. Meaning that all the potential energy in the limbs at full draw is not transfered into the arrow upon release. Most of it remains in the bow and is lost in vibration, string/cable stretch and bow torque. All things equal, a heavier arrow will absorb more energy than a light arrow - the bow is more efficient with a heavy arrow. You can prove this with a chronograph. Measure the velocity of a light arrow and a heavy arrow from the same bow and calculate the kinetic energy of each. You will see the heavy arrow will have more energy.

quote:
Carbon arrows retain more energy than Aluminum or wood do to paradox.


The only way this statement can be true is if the carbon arrow is more aerodynamic than the others and maintains velocity better. I suppose a typical carbon arrow will have a smaller diameter than a comparable aluminum or wood arrow so it will experience less drag.

To me it is far more important to tune the bow/arrow combination for the best possible accuracy and not velocity and/or energy. Unless you go ultra light the arrow is going to penetrate a deer on a broadside shot. The extra velocity will extend your range a few yards but I still prefere accuracy over velocity.

In the end it is all academic. A deer is not difficult to kill. You can put them down with a recurve and a wood arrow. It is all a matter of hitting the vitals. My intent of this thread was to see if archers were getting more agressive with shot angles with some of the modern archery tackle. My experience last fall shooting a deer quartering on prooves that the new equipment does not afford you much more leway than the traditional tackle.

My shot on a quartering on deer with a Mathews LX, Carbon Express arrow, Steel Force broad head was JUST adequate to make it through the shoulder blade. I wouldn't try the shot a second time.
 
Posts: 1292 | Location: I'm right here! | Registered: 01 July 2004Reply With Quote
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I believe it is bad advice to tell anyone that a deer is not going to move when a bow shot is fired and one should ALWAYS be ready for it. I'd say probably 1/2 the deer I've shot at didn't move at all but, around 1/2 did. How do you compensate for that? aim at their hearts, it's a no lose situation, you either hit them in their heart or they drop and you hit em' in the lungs. You would be very surprised at how many guys aim at the heart but most of their kills are lung shots. Ever watch em' in slow-mo on the outdoor channel?

Bfr, Where did you come up w/ the high frequency noise that we can't hear theory. Sounds like bunk to me but, we all have our theories. Deer will move w/ louder bows more than quieter bows, get your bow quite and you stand a better chance period. This is the first I've ever heard about this theory and I've heard quite alot about bow sound, read a good bit as well. Do you have any sources that I can research this theory in?

I have absolutely no problem w/ hitting one at 30 yards and I'll put money on it that they'll move less w/ a fast quiet bow every time.

I watch 100s of deer every season and I know for a fact that they react to any noise that has a significant sound. Ever watched deer while there feeding and had a squirrel or dillo break a limb close to em? They flinch and go right back to eating. That flinch can hurt your shot but what you have to realize is when you shoot a bow there's more than the intial thud. A good way to see this in action is to have your buddy shoot a target that you are standing close to but BEHIND something of course so safety is observed. You will hear the thump of the bow plus the flight of the arrow before it strikes the target. A deer can hear much much better than us therefore the string jump is not surprising. Another thing some folks don't realize is the fact that the deer not only hears the sound of the bow, a good bit of the time they see the hunters movement, we move, our bow moves too as soon as we let fly. I believe they associate the movement w/ the sound on many string jumps a deer has better peripheral vision than we could ever have dreamed of.

Have a Good One

Reloader
 
Posts: 4146 | Location: North Louisiana | Registered: 18 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Reloader, blow a silent dog whistle near your dog and watch the reaction. Now find a deer and blow it. You don't seem to realize the range of hearing of animals. High frequency noise is not normal in the woods. It also hurts an animals ears. They are not afraid of loud noise as long as it is in the normal range (lower freq's) that they deal with day to day. A branch falling, other deer running, etc. They do not even fear gunfire but a bullet passing them breaking the sound barrier is another thing as is a bullet that hits close to them.
You can shoot a very loud bow without scaring deer as long as there is not a high frequency component involved. I shot 4 deer with a crossbow in Ohio that sounded like a car hitting a tree and it did not scare the deer. But a bow that sounds very quiet to you is capable of scaring the hell out of a deer.
If you want to prove a bow, go squirrel hunting. If a squirrel on the ground does not move at the shot, the bow is great for deer. If the squirrel runs up a tree and barks at you before the arrow hits the ground, hang that bow up until you fix it. If you can't fix it, GET RID OF IT, some sucker will buy it. Maybe thats not right either, the poor guy will be in the same fix you were in. Send it back to the company and tell them it is no good for hunting. If enough of you do that, maybe the bow makers would smarten up.
Why do you think all of the police cars have those little whistles on their bumpers? They scare the deer away from the road. They work as long as they are clean but if they are dirty, they quit.
Sounds like you do not study deer and experiment with them and have a lot to learn. You can't learn from other hunters, you have to do it yourself. You will not learn a thing from the bow makers either, they are out to make money and don't care if the bow scares deer. Today, speed sells, nothing else matters. There are a few that are working with the problem, Mathews seems to be ahead of the pack. Then there are a million new vibration dampers to add to your bow, the people that make these know what I know.
 
Posts: 4068 | Location: Bakerton, WV | Registered: 01 September 2003Reply With Quote
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Clem,

I'll reply to your question.

25-30 years ago I shot some deer with a wheel bow on 55 lbs. breaking down to a holding weight of about 35 lbs. I was using Black Diamond broadheads (fixed with bleeder blades) and alluminum arrows (2114's, 1916's or something like that). Top of the line equipment for the day. Anyway, I HAD to shoot deer behind the shoulder. Shoulder shots simply ran off never to be found. Also, deer often succesfully jumped the string. And one more thing..... if yardage was judged to be 23 yards and it was actually 30, you missed.

Fast forward to the present: I'm shooting a 75 lb. Jennings single perimeter weighted cam bow with 31 inch carbon arrows (heaviest/stiffest size) with Steelhead broadheads. I've killed about 60 deer with this set-up. This past year I shot a couple of 150 lb. bucks as they were coming in to my grunt call. The only shot I had was quartering towards me. Both shots were about 10 yards while I was about 12' up a tree. Both shots were directly into the shoulder blade and exited back of ribs. I did get my arrows broken as the deer ran past trees because I didn't get complete passthrough. But even though the arrow didn't pass all the way through and into the ground, the broadhead did. Wink

Conclusion: I ignore the shoulder and shoot through it to get to the goodies. Smiler

Reloader,

You sir are correct. Today's bows are quiet and fast. Too fast for the deer to move out of the way inside 15 yards. Granted they may move a little, but not far enough.
 
Posts: 109 | Location: Nashville, TN | Registered: 29 May 2002Reply With Quote
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Good thing you tried it on the small 150 lb bucks. A large buck may stop that arrow in its shoulder.

the chef
 
Posts: 2763 | Registered: 11 March 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
You can shoot a very loud bow without scaring deer as long as there is not a high frequency component involved

rotflmo rotflmo

I needed a good laugh today....



quote:
Sounds like you do not study deer and experiment with them and have a lot to learn. You can't learn from other hunters, you have to do it yourself. You will not learn a thing from the bow makers either, they are out to make money and don't care if the bow scares deer. Today, speed sells, nothing else matters. There are a few that are working with the problem, Mathews seems to be ahead of the pack. Then there are a million new vibration dampers to add to your bow, the people that make these know what I know.



rotflmo

No, my friend, it sounds like you do not study deer. How many did you pass on this year?

I love to watch em' and study their natural actions.

How many deer have you harvested in the last few years? I've only taken around 40 or so big game animals in the last 3 seasons.

I harvested 6 rack bucks, one basket rack buck, 3 doe and passed over 100 easy in the last few months. If you don't think I know alittle about deer hunting, keep thinking it Big Grin

I say again, Show me your source for this high frequency sound coming from a quiet bow that scares the daylights out of deer. You are the first person I've ever heard come up w/ that sort of theory and I've heard quite a few lame ones.

High frequency dog whistles and the little POS whistles you put on you car bumper don't mean squat when we are shooting arrows from a 300fps bow. If a bow is quiet they don't react as much. I've shot too many with quiet bows and loud bows to realize the difference. If you had deer stand still in front of a loud cross bow it was probably due to the speed. I know lots of fellas that shoot Xbows and deer still react to their shots.


Reloader
 
Posts: 4146 | Location: North Louisiana | Registered: 18 February 2004Reply With Quote
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It's not the first time I've heard high frequency sound mentioned. I don't know if it's a factor. I do know that if you can't hear those frequencies as a human how can you say they don't exist?

the chef
 
Posts: 2763 | Registered: 11 March 2004Reply With Quote
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I do know that if you can't hear those frequencies as a human how can you say they don't exist?


Never said they don't exist.

I said I don't believe they have anything in this world to do w/ scaring deer during the milliseconds involved in arrow flight.

You can't compare the dog whistle or the car whistles to bow shots because w/ those you are dealing w/ constant frequencies not instantaneous frequencies. There are instantaneous frequencies in these animals natural environments, if they were so deathly afraid of the very short instantaneous frequecies, they'd all have heart attacks.

Bfr, you mention a dog whistle. I know my two outside hounds can hear them very very well yet, my shooting friends and I shoot our bows of all different styles and sounds and the dogs just lay in the grass to our side and never flinch unless the bow has a very loud sharp slapping sound, that scares them. Gunshots and thunder scare the daylights out of them as well. I stand by my belief that the quieter the bow the less the deer react. A fast quiet bow is the best combination to avoid string jump. That accompanied in knowing when to shoot and placing the arrow in the right spot are the most important factors when you refer to string jump.

I will also say that string jumping is very proportional to hunting pressure as well as predation. In some of the areas I hunt the deer are very spooky but, in other areas they are just as calm as they can be.

Reloader
 
Posts: 4146 | Location: North Louisiana | Registered: 18 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Then there are a million new vibration dampers to add to your bow, the people that make these know what I know.



Oh Boy, Bfr I'd suggest you call a few of them.

They make these products to reduce the loud sounds and reduce the shock of your setup. If you can get one of them to say they make their products to eliminate sounds we as humans can't hear, let us all know I'd like to talk to them myself.

Most after market products are meant for reduction noise as in making your bow QUIET not for this sound we humans can't hear. They are also made to reduce the shock of the bow.

I tell you what, tell them you have a very loud bow that the deer will not react to because it doesn't produce those high frequency sounds we can't hear. I'd like to hear their comments on that one.

Reloader
 
Posts: 4146 | Location: North Louisiana | Registered: 18 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Have you taken other than broadside shots with a bow? What were the results?


quote:
My intent of this thread was to see if archers were getting more agressive with shot angles with some of the modern archery tackle.


quote:
Reloader, blow a silent dog whistle near your dog


quote:
You can't compare the dog whistle or the car whistles to bow shots because


hijack


Better to remain silent and be thought a fool. Than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
 
Posts: 75 | Location: Mountains of North Carolina | Registered: 02 December 2005Reply With Quote
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Good Point swede.

I'll start another post.

Clem,

I apologize for getting off subject.

Reloader
 
Posts: 4146 | Location: North Louisiana | Registered: 18 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Not a problem - it's actually good discussion.
 
Posts: 1292 | Location: I'm right here! | Registered: 01 July 2004Reply With Quote
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There are a couple of issues in this thread that have caused me to reply and by so doing, I mean no disrespect for anyone, but rather am offering my opinion, both as a certified archery safety instructor, and as an engineer.

Unfortunately much of this discussion involves the shooting of some bow/aroow combination that will allow the hunter to take risky or marginally successful shots. Shot placement is key, not just shooting an arrow at the first opportunity that arises. I am somewhat dismayed at the number of individuals that take head on shots, head shots, or quartering on shots as these are all considered high risk shots. These shots can be successful, but should not be encouraged. Our responsibility as hunting archers is to take high persentage shots to assure the rapid death of our quarry. To risk a marginal hit is in my opinion unethical and shows disrespect for the animal. Granted, the right combination of arrow and bow might possess sufficient energy to allow an arrow to pass through shoulder bones or large ribs, but passing on a high risk shot and waiting for the best shot will assure a quick and humane kill. Arrows, unlike bullets, do not kill by the transfer of energy to the animal, they kill by causing the animal to bleed to death. Hitting a shoulder bone by accident is very different from ignoring its existence and attempting to shoot through it.

The aerodynamic response of the arrow as it passes by the rest is independent of the arrow shaft's material and speed. The response of the arrow to the Archer's Paradox is purely a function of the arrow's spine. Carbon arrows that for the same spine are thinner than corresponding aluminum or wooden shafts may appear to be less affected by the Paradox. Simply because the carbons may launch from the bow at higher speeds due to their thinness it is incorrect to conclude that faster arrows are less subject to the Paradox. Carbons tend to be stiffer and more consistantly manufactured than corresponding aluminums and certainly wooden shafts. It is the spine of the arrow, that is, the amount it deflects around the riser, that determines sensitivity to spine..not speed. A properly spined arrow, whether it is carbon, aluminum or wood, thick or thin, will have better penetration downrange only because it recovers more rapidly from the loads applied to it during the shot sequence, can therefore can stabilize more rapidly in flight and ultimately arrive at the target with less lateral motion that reduces available energy for penetration. The less energy lost in flight from fish tailing equates to better penetration. The only thing that faster arrows buys the hunting archer is a reduction in the arc of the arrow allowing for less need for precise range determination, thereby increaing your effective killing range. It certainly makes sense that if the arrow is traveling faster and takes less time to cover the distance to your quarry, that the animal may not appear to drop down as far if it jumps the string before your arrow hits. But drop it will if it reacts to the shot noise. Your arrow will simply arrive there faster and not hit as high on your target as it would if you were shooting a slower shaft.
 
Posts: 55 | Registered: 12 August 2005Reply With Quote
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I am a little late here. I always wait for a broadside or quartering away shot, how ever I have spined a few from directly above when I was younger. My concern now is the angle of penetration of the broadside or quartering away shot if the tree stand is too high. We like to go high to escape the deer's senses' but ity really makes our target smaller. I have adjusted lately that I don't hunt above 16 feet. It is the vertical angle,I think,that alot of bow hunters don't think about.


Windage and elevation, Mrs. Langdon, windage and elevation...
 
Posts: 944 | Location: michigan | Registered: 16 December 2004Reply With Quote
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This is some good discussion. I posted this after my experience last fall. I always waited for the sure, broad-side shot. Last fall I wanted to take a smaller deer for the tender vennie. When one presented itself it was a quartering on shot I would normally pass on. I figured it was a small deer and I had all the latest gear so I let fly. The arrow pierced the on-shoulder blade and penetrated maybe 10 inches. While I was sucessful I think I would chock this up as a lesson on what NOT to do. Replace that small (maybe 100 lb soaken wet) deer with a 200 lb+ trophy buck I suspect I may have been in for a very long day (although I would not have taken that shot on a larger deer).
 
Posts: 1292 | Location: I'm right here! | Registered: 01 July 2004Reply With Quote
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I think every archery hunter eventually learns from his'her mistakes and it is good that we share our experiences whether good or bad. I'm certainly not proud of some of the shots I've made archery hunting as some of them ended succesfully and a handful not so succesful. Good lessons learned and advise passed on which is what this thread was all about in the first place.

Ya'll have a good one

Reloader
 
Posts: 4146 | Location: North Louisiana | Registered: 18 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Clem: I agree with your conclusion and respect you for your them.
Reloader: you are absolutely correct with regard to learning from and sharing our experiences. even the most practised archer will make a mistake in the heat of the shot and shoot high, low, or too far back. We learn something from every shot we take at our quarry. Passing on those lessons will make us all better hunters.
 
Posts: 55 | Registered: 12 August 2005Reply With Quote
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